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Equipment Discussions >> ATM, Optics and DIY Forum

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Crayfordjon
Vendor - Zerochromat
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Reged: 06/17/09

Loc: UK
Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #6226308 - 12/01/13 02:00 AM

Yes we have heard of the metre swedish scope usual, but what we are trying to do is introduce new ideas into ATM, and our experience is that new ideas are rejected on a knee jerk regularity, Why?, I find this fascinating this resistance to change.

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Schubert
member


Reged: 11/16/13

Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? [Re: Crayfordjon]
      #6226333 - 12/01/13 02:39 AM

A schuppman is tweaky yes, but so is a newt.
If you ever collimated a newt and found it hairy, donīt bother with a Schuppman. It has 1 extra set of alignmentscrews at the relay-mirror.
Those are the screws you use to tune out atmospheric dispersion as well.
It just plain works if you make a good solid tail-piece assembly which holds the focuser, diagonal and the relay-mirror and allows you to tweak them all.

Furthermore a Schuppman is relatively light.
A 30cm schuppmann has about the same mount-requirements as a 7 inch Apo.


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wiseone
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Reged: 01/07/08

Loc: North Wales, UK
Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: Schubert]
      #6226434 - 12/01/13 05:47 AM

As the Schupmann design is so good, it seems odd that it has never been commercialised. In a similar vein, the Schiefspeigler design has also not been commercialised - I made a 4 1/4 inch Schief back in 1976, and made much use of it, showing dozens of schoolchildren at my son's school the wonders of the night sky. Even a party of nuns! It was 'tea and stars' and was a resounding success - and provided free. All under the wonderful South African skies.

The dialyte refractor that I designed from John Wall's 30 inch dialyte worked very well indeed, but was far too expensive to make, and I had trouble with the triplet lens in the corrector chain of lenses. Not commercially feasible.

The latest configuration makes use of an absolute minimum of corrector lenses (one singlet and two identical doublets), and even has half the lateral colour of the original design, with identical performance on-axis. It has the bonus of not being 'tweaky' at all.


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kfrederick
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 02/01/08

Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: Crayfordjon]
      #6226550 - 12/01/13 08:59 AM

Quote:

Yes we have heard of the metre swedish scope usual, but what we are trying to do is introduce new ideas into ATM, and our experience is that new ideas are rejected on a knee jerk regularity, Why?, I find this fascinating this resistance to change.


John I know what you are saying Same thing with the Chief It is better and could be even better!! But even the people who know will say not say . The big boys have no intrest in a better telescope and the ATMs just wont to by a cheep mirror and put it in a tube and call them ATM / Nothing wrong with a Schup why none out there except for ATM ? The pros do not seem interested in a better telescope design .Taking a chance . I respect the work you and Peter have done . And excited to see what you come up with next .

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DAVIDG
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Reged: 12/02/04

Loc: Hockessin, De
Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: kfrederick]
      #6226821 - 12/01/13 11:36 AM

The "acid test" for a new design is that the average amateur has to be able to make it and it needs to perform to an acceptable level once it is built. The Schupmann design has proven this time after times. I've built three set of optics on my kitchen table. The OTA required only simple tools and the total cost was less then $100 for each telescope. So until these other design show multiple examples of functional telescopes made by different people over a period of few years, they will never become popular. If the average guy tries to make one of these new designs and finds it too difficult, then the design will be forgotten. When some looks thru the eyepiece they better be able to see the difference in the image quality or they will quickly come to the conclusion that building a simple newtonian is a better use of time and money.

I keep seeing talk about some of these new design but I have yet to see a step by step plan on how to build one. For other designs there are books, articles and website that provide the EXACT details on how it is done. This is true of the Schupmann and why it has been built. Showing a one or two examples doesn't cut it. Show the world EXACTLY how to build one, the cost involved, were to get the materials, how to make and test the optics, what the tolerance are and then maybe you'll get a following.

- Dave


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DAVIDG
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Reged: 12/02/04

Loc: Hockessin, De
Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: wiseone]
      #6227531 - 12/01/13 05:19 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

Quote:

. In a similar vein, the Schiefspeigler design has also not been commercialised - I made a 4 1/4 inch Schief back in 1976, and made much use of it, showing dozens of schoolchildren at my son's school the wonders of the night sky. Even a party of nuns! It was 'tea and stars' and was a resounding success - and provided free. All under the wonderful South African skies.






The Kutter Schief has been commericalized by a couple of companies over the years. It is still being sold by AOK Swiss in both a 4" and 6" aperture. http://www.aokswiss.ch/index_tel.html It is also still popular with ATM's and we have an active site on Yahoo Groups "Schiefbuilders". From the information on this site a number of Schiefs have been built over the years. Again the secret is to provide people with exact plans and information on how it is done and examples of scopes that have been built so they can see it is a doable project. Also when people do look thru the eyepiece they do show great images and show it is worth the effort to make one. Here is a picture of one made by my good friend Gary Fuchs.


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Gary Fuchs
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 05/22/06

Loc: Easton, PA, USA
Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #6228160 - 12/01/13 11:11 PM

Thanks Dave!

Schiefs and Schupmanns are great scopes.

When I made my Schief an otherwise knowledgeable friend commented that they're hard to collimate. In fact, they're quite easy to collimate--provided you set up the adjustments the way Knab shows. I think it's considerably easier than a Newt. And they seem to hold it quite well too, even through fairly rough handling.

Dave recommended that I follow Knab's method--and I did. Like Dave said, that was well documented and even without a technical/scientific background I was able to understand and implement it. If I can do it...

As for why these scopes aren't more accepted commercially and known, I think it's partly because of the sort of mistaken preconceptions like those I encountered from my friend and others subsequently.

The information and guidance is easily available for either scope. Likewise the materials and tools needed--nothing fancy.

To me it's like choosing a car. Which one is best; which of course depends...a minivan isn't better than a sedan and that's not better than a roadster. Apples and oranges.

Gary


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Crayfordjon
Vendor - Zerochromat
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Reged: 06/17/09

Loc: UK
Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: Gary Fuchs]
      #6228320 - 12/02/13 01:57 AM

David is right of course, the retro is a scope for those who like forbidden fruit,it is a challenge to build by the amateur, perhaps his scope should be aired on a different forum. The Idea of these postings is to introduce a new and exciting system.

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Dave O
sage
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Reged: 12/21/11

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Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: wiseone]
      #6228353 - 12/02/13 03:06 AM

I've often wondered if 'patents' and 'royalties' (and lawyers) get in the way of commercial production of some of these more modern designs?

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Crayfordjon
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Reged: 06/17/09

Loc: UK
Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: Dave O]
      #6228362 - 12/02/13 03:26 AM

Probably that too, but there is a reluctance to launch a new concept on the market in case it does not sell in the Telescope market, there is also an inate conservatism too that prevents the sale of something new, and therefore fishy.

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Crayfordjon
Vendor - Zerochromat
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Reged: 06/17/09

Loc: UK
Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: Crayfordjon]
      #6228366 - 12/02/13 03:32 AM Attachment (15 downloads)

Getting away from that subject, there is the simplest refractor of all, that is the single plano convex . This has a lot of primary colour of course, but with a bit of know how and black magic you can get images like this. I have been experimenting with singlex scopes for years now, and getting a modicum of success.

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robboski2004
member


Reged: 01/14/08

Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: Crayfordjon]
      #6229362 - 12/02/13 02:59 PM

Quote:

David is right of course, the retro is a scope for those who like forbidden fruit,it is a challenge to build by the amateur, perhaps his scope should be aired on a different forum. The Idea of these postings is to introduce a new and exciting system.




The idea of this thread was to discuss the Schupmann !
John maybe you could supply a link to your done to death
singlet.
Ian.


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Gary Fuchs
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 05/22/06

Loc: Easton, PA, USA
Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: robboski2004]
      #6229426 - 12/02/13 03:22 PM

I had an opportunity to try one of Dave Groski's Schupmanns on Venus and it was really neat to easily "tune" out the color for a sharp clear image.

Another adoption obstacle with a less well known design like a Schupmann or Schief is that if you don't actually get to view through one and get your head around the design, testing, and construction it's tough to make the effort to build one based on anecdotal reports--a good reason to see one in person if you can manage it, for example at Stellafane.

The next best, and what is good anyway, is what Dave mentioned about specialized groups for these scopes. There are a number of makers and some history with Schupmann's so really no mystery about them or reliance on particular individuals with specialized knowledge.

Why haven't I made one then? Because other projects have been in the pipeline (some not ATM related like having to rebuild a porch over the spring and summer and into fall). But I do have glass. Just a matter of time.

Gary


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Crayfordjon
Vendor - Zerochromat
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Reged: 06/17/09

Loc: UK
Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: Gary Fuchs]
      #6230670 - 12/03/13 01:55 AM

Thats OK, I will butt out now.

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kfrederick
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 02/01/08

Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: Crayfordjon]
      #6230898 - 12/03/13 08:03 AM

John I an interested and know the merit of your work . That guy has no clue . And his rude comment is the problem on here . Thanks for your work

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Crayfordjon
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Reged: 06/17/09

Loc: UK
Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: kfrederick]
      #6231160 - 12/03/13 11:06 AM

It was not that, actually, I was deviating from the main theme, but as you insist I will post the scheme.

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Crayfordjon
Vendor - Zerochromat
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Reged: 06/17/09

Loc: UK
Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: Crayfordjon]
      #6231201 - 12/03/13 11:25 AM Attachment (13 downloads)

I have been researching simple telescopes for some time, one being the dreaded Hypo, but we have said enough on that already. This scope is very basic, it uses a singlex OG, and another singlex reduction lens. The visual images are atrocious. I use a narrow passband interference filter which is green for this purpose, specs are 560nm central band with a deviation of 10nm. The image of the antenna was taken with a digital camera afocally using a 25mm plossl eyepiece, the green image was then processed in Photoshop, with the result previuosly shewn. The lenses were not computed, just placed together on the tester, and the match was very good. The OG is short focus and the reducer was culled from a salvaged 9 inch television camera lens, weighing about a ton, the singlex was one of the lenses in the set. Diagram will shew the set up.

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Gary Fuchs
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Reged: 05/22/06

Loc: Easton, PA, USA
Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: Crayfordjon]
      #6231425 - 12/03/13 01:17 PM

Quote:

I have been researching simple telescopes for some time, one being the dreaded Hypo, but we have said enough on that already. This scope is very basic, it uses a singlex OG, and another singlex reduction lens.




If this were in its own thread more people would be likely to see it...and would have an easier time finding it later...


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kfrederick
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 02/01/08

Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: Gary Fuchs]
      #6231503 - 12/03/13 01:53 PM

John design is like a schupman as it uses a singlet primary lens and corrects the color with smaller lens / No harm hearing from the man who came up with it .

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Gary Fuchs
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 05/22/06

Loc: Easton, PA, USA
Re: Have you ever heard of the Schupman telescope? new [Re: kfrederick]
      #6231574 - 12/03/13 02:26 PM

I thought a Schupmann used a reflective element, or elements. Maybe I just don't get it.
In any case, I think John would get more traction out of his posts if he addressed his design in a separate thread. Many times I've looked at a thread titled with what I'm interested in only to find it's gone off on tangents--interesting as they might be; or, wanted to find something I wasn't quite sure of how to structure a sufficiently precise search phrase for and eventually found what I needed buried in a seemingly unrelated thread.
Also good to repeat what's been said before from time to time for the benefit of those who might not even be aware that there was something to search for...


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