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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6243526 - 12/09/13 08:15 PM

Quote:

The ISS orbit is too high an inclination, a concession to Russian participation.



why, because their tracking stations on the ground can't follow equatorial orbit?


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: dickbill]
      #6243881 - 12/09/13 11:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The ISS orbit is too high an inclination, a concession to Russian participation.



why, because their tracking stations on the ground can't follow equatorial orbit?




No, so their Soyuz vehicles can launch to it from Baikonur at a latitude of about 46 degrees N.


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6244325 - 12/10/13 09:36 AM

OK.
Why is it bad to be in a high inclination?


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llanitedave
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: dickbill]
      #6244737 - 12/10/13 01:03 PM

Quote:

OK.
Why is it bad to be in a high inclination?





If you're observing Earth, it's fine. If you're hosting craft going out and returning from other solar system bodies, it's a bit of a problem because you're off the plane of the ecliptic. Your energy gain and geometry are less than optimal.


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buddyjesus
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 07/07/10

Loc: Davison, Michigan
Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6257381 - 12/17/13 12:23 AM

smaller has been done. they will experiment with bigger. I would love to see a space elevator in my lifetime too. *fingers crossed*

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llanitedave
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: buddyjesus]
      #6257925 - 12/17/13 11:09 AM

The thing I fear the most about the space elevator is having to listen to space elevator music all the way up and down.

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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: buddyjesus]
      #6258280 - 12/17/13 02:44 PM

Quote:

smaller has been done. they will experiment with bigger. I would love to see a space elevator in my lifetime too. *fingers crossed*



Those half mile long skyscrapers in Asia almost qualify.


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groz
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Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: buddyjesus]
      #6258752 - 12/17/13 06:45 PM

Quote:

smaller has been done. they will experiment with bigger. I would love to see a space elevator in my lifetime too. *fingers crossed*




to build your space elevator you need to

a) Reach into the closet, and pull out a thousand tons of unobtanium
b) Launch it all up into geostationary orbit
c) Build some sort of shield so that it's never hit by a micro-meteorite
d) Shield the bottom so it's not whipped around by atmospheric currents (wind) at any altitude.


Pretty much guaranteed it'll never happen in your lifetime, or any other lifetime for that matter. The basic premise is fundamentally flawed. It relies on sending energy from the ground to the climber, in such a manner, it doesn't impact the actual tether. If you can aim an energy beam that strong, that accurately, you dont need the tether anymore, just beam the energy into a traditional winged vehicle. If it doesn't have to carry enough energy (fuel) to accelerate to orbital velocity, most of the difficult issues of launch vehicle construction just vanish from the equation. With an essentially unlimited energy source available, air driven propulsion can get you 99% of the way, and just a tiny bit of reaction mass required to stabilize the final orbit. And if energy supply is unlimited, just carry a little bit of air up with you to be the final reaction mass.

As far as some of the other issues of the tether go, just consider this. Did you ever play 'crack the whip' on skates as a kid ? Now consider the tether as 16,000+ miles in length, and, it's being pushed around at the bottom by different winds, and different altitudes, for the small portion in the atmosphere. That'll translate into waves going up and down the tether itself. Have you ever watched the video of 'galloping gertie' ?

Space elevator is the stuff of science fiction, and works real good, as long as you work in the 'ignore reality' premise.


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llanitedave
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Reged: 09/26/05

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Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: groz]
      #6258975 - 12/17/13 09:08 PM

The fact that it's untenable is the least of its problems. Even if you could build one, it simply wouldn't be all that practical. An orbital space ship that can actually go up and down and side to side, avoid space debris, retrieve and release other satellites, among other things, seems to me far more useful. And the price of access to space has already started coming down. With mass production and reusability of engines and launch vehicles and commercial competition between space companies, that price will be coming down even more, fairly quickly. I would bet that a Dragon or CST-100 or Dream Chaser visit to a Bigelow space station will be quite a bit more pleasant than swaying on a giant shakey lightning rod thousands of miles up.

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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6259713 - 12/18/13 09:39 AM

I think that the next (I)ST will be smaller/simpler than the present one.
Recently, yahoo news reported 'another' cooling problem in the ISS...
Perhaps the only thing to add would be a shield, for the space debris. How thick should it be?


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: dickbill]
      #6259830 - 12/18/13 10:49 AM

Firstsight, no need to apologize here. We were attacked by a troll, no doubt, and I recognize I fed him a little bit.

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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: dickbill]
      #6260163 - 12/18/13 01:57 PM

The cooling problem in the iss not resolved. Now imagine Murphy's law strikes and a meteorite punctures a compartment. I assume the modules have self-sealing capabilities, but there must a be size limit to the hole that can be self-sealed. So let's assume a module completely depressurizes, in addition to the cooling problem, could the ISS survive that?

Edited by dickbill (12/18/13 01:58 PM)


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Cliff C
member


Reged: 02/11/09

Loc: Long Island, NY
Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: Starlon]
      #6260208 - 12/18/13 02:24 PM

As a side note to the "What Ifs", not only was Skylab much larger than what the shuttle could bring to orbit but the second stage of the Saturn V which hauled Sklab to orbit stayed in orbit itself for 2 years or so. Now if the first stage had been a bit lighter with uprated F-1s or some solid rockets had been used in the first stage we could in one launch had a Skylab connected to a huge Saturn Second stage "wet workshop" that could have been converted to a station with tremendous volume. Even three or four launches over the course of one or two years could have generated a 2001 Space Odyssey sized station many years ago for much less money. Oh well.

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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: Cliff C]
      #6260319 - 12/18/13 03:18 PM

what are made of these second stage, a thin skin of aluminium over a steel frame?
Could that be rigid/strong enough for a station?
I heard something similar for the shuttle 'tank'. But given the environment of space debris, I'd feel safer with a very thick external wall.


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llanitedave
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: dickbill]
      #6260380 - 12/18/13 03:49 PM

It could have worked, but the tanks would have required lots of refurbishing, including adding solar panels, wiring harnesses, plumbing, furnishings, storage lockers, hatches...

It would have been cheaper to just build another module on the ground, furnish it, and launch it separately. Although the experience of learning how to do actual construction in space would have been valuable itself.


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groz
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 03/14/07

Loc: Campbell River, BC
Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: Cliff C]
      #6260405 - 12/18/13 04:00 PM

All the nostalgia about skylab, folks seem to forget some of the details. Skylab was an unbearbly hot place for astronauts initially, due to cooling system failures. The fixes made later, made it 'just hot', but not a comfortable workplace.

The first mission, was essentially a repair mission, where various items damaged in launch were fixed, or where fix wasn't possible, jury-rigged as best as possible.

I know it's pretty easy for folks to wax nostalgic about skylab and it's series of missions. But, reality is, today if designing a space station and it's missions, looking back to skylab is done, as an example of 'how not to do it', not as an example of 'how to do it'.


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llanitedave
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: groz]
      #6260449 - 12/18/13 04:23 PM

Good point, groz. And with that missing solar panel, it never could develop the power it was designed for.

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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Skylab vs the ISS [Re: llanitedave]
      #6260505 - 12/18/13 04:53 PM

Nuclear reactor plus Peltier cooler?

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obin robinson
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Reged: 10/25/12

Loc: League City, TX
Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: dickbill]
      #6285895 - 01/01/14 04:14 PM

Quote:

Isn't there any research, or actually ANYTHING, done on the ISS that could not have been done on the Skylab?
Perhaps even on a much cheaper Salyut station and Chinese derivatives?
Why justify then the exorbitant cost of the ISS?

Is there anything less rational than to say that the ISS was designed for the space shuttle, and the space shuttle was designed for the ISS?




Skylab could do something which the ISS can not do. For what it's worth the ISS can not do what the Almaz could do either. You either know what I'm talking about or you need to do a bit more research into just what really was going on in space during the Cold War. The ISS is a cooperative mission with the goal of science. Skylab, the Space Shuttle, the MMU, Buran, Polyus, Almaz, and Salyut wasn't necessarily about science. The size and payload requirements for the Space Shuttle have nothing to do with science at all. There was plenty of other stuff going on which I find to be much more interesting.

obin


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llanitedave
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Skylab vs the ISS new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6285946 - 01/01/14 04:38 PM

There's an opening at the NSA with your name on it.

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