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raffaello
sage


Reged: 10/10/07

published selenology today 34
      #6296180 - 01/06/14 02:55 PM

It is online, the issue 34 of ST
http://digilander.libero.it/glrgroup/

An intersting issue with the article of Thomas Dobbins and William Sheehan "transient lunacy"
It is interesting this article and the authors are authors of the book epic moon.


http://www.lunar-captures.com//Selenology_Today/selenologytoday34.pdf

We have included also an article Reprint of Aristarchus event by Jim Phillips and I.

Thanks
Raffaello Lena


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RobertED
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Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: raffaello]
      #6300158 - 01/08/14 02:25 PM

Thank You, Raffaello!! Excellence as always!!

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choran
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Reged: 12/28/12

Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: raffaello]
      #6300468 - 01/08/14 05:20 PM

Thank you. I enjoyed the issue, and was especially gratified that you included historical information relating to Kozyrev's victimization and imprisonment in a labor camp by Stalin during the purges. Very interesting article.

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Sarkikos
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Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: raffaello]
      #6315110 - 01/15/14 06:36 PM

Thank you, Rafaello!

Every lunatic who ever contemplated spending precious sky time searching for TLP should read the article by Dobbins and Sheehanin in Selenology Today.

However, I see TLP most every time I observe the Moon. I mean those little changes in light and shadow caused by sunlight shining across the terminator. IME & IMO, those are the only TLP observers can have any real chance of seeing.

Mike


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A6Q6
sage


Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6315498 - 01/15/14 09:55 PM Attachment (17 downloads)

On page 11 of Selenology today#34, Dobbins and Sheehan said of Philipp Fauth and Herold Hill : "neither
managed to so much as glimpse a TLP." I guess they never read Hills "A portfolio of Lunar Drawings",because on page 94 under Lichtenberg and environs Hill says: "Between 0115 and 0230 (no significance in the date!) the author saw, for the first time in his experience, rosy-tinged areas fringing the northern edge of the lave sheet. The Moon had hitherto always looked quite neutral in the colour of his eyes but the effect on April 1 unmistakeable and certainly not due to atmospheric dispersion or other false effects,because a most careful check was made with bright objects, such as Lavoisier A. The telescope employed was a 10" reflector using various eyepieces as a safeguard, but the colour persisted until weather conditions deteriorated. The area has been described as "red-sensitive' but if so, it is curious that the coloration is rarely in evidence, even when specially looked for under the most suitable conditions. There the matter must rest.....at least for now."

Edited by A6Q6 (01/15/14 10:28 PM)


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azure1961p
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Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6315571 - 01/15/14 10:41 PM

I thought Sheehan and Dobbins pretty well put the notion of TLP colored glows to rest in their excellent book EPIC MOON. Still, I'm looking forward to finally read the new SELENOLOGY TODAY edition#34. That these two high caliber authors contributed here I was really super glad to see. They've got a lot to offer obviously and the publication deserves it.
It was good to see Phillips weighing in with images.

I'm convinced Hill saw nothing that was actually originating from the moon but either effects through dispersion in the atmosphere or retinal/ neurological manifestations.

To really put TLPs into proper perspective its worth considering the number of wild goose chases visual observers have gone on over the centuries . The crater Linne is a stunning example of how even the best observers can be led so completely astray from reality.


Pete

Edited by azure1961p (01/15/14 10:47 PM)


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David Knisely
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Reged: 04/19/04

Loc: southeastern Nebraska
Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: raffaello]
      #6315707 - 01/16/14 12:27 AM

That LTP historical article was outstanding! It really presented the full history of the subject in-depth. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Clear skies to you.

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Rick Woods
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Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6315709 - 01/16/14 12:28 AM

Quote:

I thought Sheehan and Dobbins pretty well put the notion of TLP colored glows to rest in their excellent book EPIC MOON.




Sheehan and Dobbins are quite skeptical. I don't know about Tom Dobbins, but Bill Sheehan has, in the past, done public about-faces on issues when presented with new evidence that he finds convincing. He has integrity, and calls them like he sees them - at the time. But he'll embrace new ideas.

Go through the reasoning presented for being skeptical about TLPs. Read what they say about the 1963 Aristarchus events, and then read the recent JBAA paper on the subject. Do you really find the notion of Greenacre and Barr being fooled by chromatic aberration to be believable? They weren't new.

Epic Moon is an excellent book, which I've read twice. But the reasoning used to dismiss any sort of lunar activity seems weak and full of holes to me. IMO it's foolish to dismiss the possibility of something, basically because it seems unlikely.

I don't claim TLP's are real; but I challenge anyone to prove they aren't.


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A6Q6
sage


Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6316307 - 01/16/14 11:36 AM

Hi Pete, have you read Herold Hills "A portfolio of Lunar Drawings"? Its not just drawings, it has over 50 years of (careful observations.) Sheehan and Dobbins show in Epic Moon that they had a lot of respect for Herold Hill. Hill wasn't one to see TLP under every rock, and they are mistaken to say Herold Hill "never managed to so much as glimpse a TLP".

Edited by A6Q6 (01/16/14 11:49 AM)


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raffaello
sage


Reged: 10/10/07

Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6327634 - 01/22/14 05:01 AM

Thanks at all for several comments.
I am proud of ST which is mentioned also in several LPOD see here
http://lpod.wikispaces.com/December+26,+2013

As for general questions my reply regarding TLP is
Sagan wrote: extraordinary claims require
extraordinary proof. So far, we don't have even
ordinary levels of proof for TLPs, nor the written
text of Greenacre, based on a visual observation,
can be considered an extraordinary proof.
Our data, at least, can be profitable for
observers to try to understand what they see on
the Moon. Greenacre observation is just lacking
of a photograph, or other extraordinary proofs.

All the best
Raf


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JimP
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/22/03

Loc: South Carolina
Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6328018 - 01/22/14 10:35 AM

Yes, from a scientific point of view I question G&B's interpretation of the color they reported. For you or anyone else to accept what they reported simply because they were experienced observers and could not have been fooled is anything but scientific and I prefer to stick to scientific methods. We at the GLR have studied many TLP events which were reported and have been able to provide scientific evidence to the contrary. We have presented the evidence you may come to your own conclusions. But, I have been observing the Moon since September 1965, how could anyone, using your logic, possibly question my conclusions?

You challenge anyone to prove there aren't TLPs? How is that possible? Assuming for the sake of argument that there are no TLPs, how could I or anyone else prove they don't exist? That is an impossibility. All we can do is examine the data and present it in a scientific way.

best,

Jim Phillips


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azure1961p
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Reged: 01/17/09

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Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6329666 - 01/23/14 12:16 AM

Quote:

Hi Pete, have you read Herold Hills "A portfolio of Lunar Drawings"? Its not just drawings, it has over 50 years of (careful observations.) Sheehan and Dobbins show in Epic Moon that they had a lot of respect for Herold Hill. Hill wasn't one to see TLP under every rock, and they are mistaken to say Herold Hill "never managed to so much as glimpse a TLP".




Yes I have the book and refer to it frequently actually. I'm convinced at this point the colored glows are nothing of the moon itself and merely manifestations within the observers eye/brain system or atmospheric distortions .

Signing onto to the notion that its anything but that harkins back to a time when clouds formed over Linne and Locusts migrated across crater floors and fresh lunar impacts were detected where no prior maps revealed such things. On every count these are observer errors in interpretation - sometimes grossly so.

Do out-gassings occur??? I'm sure its possible - but I doubt heavily its pink or visible at all - certainly to human detection. Are there fresh craters? Sure but none we'll ever add to a map. Ill skip the locusts.

Harold Hill was a fine observational astronomy and some if his work is quite nice. Greater observers than Hill however were fooled in spades.

I don't think singling out a good mans name can really offer sway but rather show that observational astronomy has its pitfalls. Certainly CCD does too with some amateurs being accused of processing noise where the imaging astronomer seeks to claim a resolution high ground. No detector or interpreter is perfect but suffice it to say the human CCD has a history of mixed results - even from the best.

Pete


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Rick Woods
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Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: JimP]
      #6330319 - 01/23/14 10:56 AM

Quote:

You challenge anyone to prove there aren't TLPs? How is that possible? Assuming for the sake of argument that there are no TLPs, how could I or anyone else prove they don't exist? That is an impossibility. All we can do is examine the data and present it in a scientific way.




Exactly my point. Thank you.


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JimP
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/22/03

Loc: South Carolina
Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6330785 - 01/23/14 02:04 PM

Rick, that was not your point at all. Go back and read your entire post .

The fact that neither you nor I can prove a negative means nothing and is worthless when it comes to science . And, that is what the GLR is all about, science, the scientific study of the Moon by dedicated amateurs who then publish their results.

Jim


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swalker
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Reged: 01/22/07

Loc: 42.9225°N, 71.2242°W
Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: JimP]
      #6332443 - 01/24/14 11:57 AM

Jim hits the nail right on the head; sorry Rick, but it's up to believers to prove the existence of TLP's, not the other way around. Extraordinary claims, as mentioned earlier, require extraordinary proof. Or how about any proof at all? Just like the elusive photo of the ashen light, there is still yet to be a single photo showing a TLP as anything more than interesting lighting conditions or colors seen through achromats. The only semi-TLP images I have seen are meteor impacts on the unlit portion of the Moon.

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Bob O.
newbie


Reged: 11/20/06

Loc: Keystone Heights, FL
Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: swalker]
      #6335589 - 01/25/14 08:21 PM

Sean,

I too have yet to see smoking-gun evidence for TLP (with the exception of meteoritic impact flashes of course). But as a TLP agnostic, I find the A. Dollfus 2000 Icarus paper interesting and it would be easy for high-resolution imaging gurus to check out by repeating the experiment under similar lighting and libration. You can download the Dollfus paper free off the 1963 Aristarchus web site at:
http://www.the1963aristarchusevents.com/Langrenus_-_Transient_Illuminations_o...

Kind Regards,
Bob


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azure1961p
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Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: Bob O.]
      #6335815 - 01/25/14 11:49 PM

What's pause for thought here is the momentum that TLPs have - and astonishingly - the reconciliation given in what's essentially an avalanche of damning results:

"Once again, the absence of evidence is not taken as evidence of absence. We can only marvel at the authors ability to reconcile hundreds of reliable reports... in recent decades with phenomena that are alleged to only occur on geologic time scales.

Nothing like the zero sum rubbery reconciliation. Why not just call it : "Sorry but decades of reports don't jive with our finds . TLP's may very well have an origin other than the moon."

In the end it'll never come to rest and there will always be "true believers" . So long as a cosmic sliver of chance exists so there will it rest. Again - there's a momentum to this belief system.

I wonder if some folks gloss over the gravity of the negative results and just don't let in the profundity of it all. Its akin to draining the loche and claiming the serpents hiding under the mud. At some point the use of unknown-unknowns as a hold out of hope and promise begins to sag under the burden of its own accommodation . The more proof that undermines its existence the more conditional and exceptional its needs become to keep operating with in the bounds of reason.

I think its reached the point its just too unwieldy to hold together anymore. Accepting this however frees up observers to move on to more fertile grounds of study.


Pete


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brianb11213
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Reged: 02/25/09

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Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: Bob O.]
      #6336075 - 01/26/14 05:32 AM

Quote:

I too have yet to see smoking-gun evidence for TLP (with the exception of meteoritic impact flashes of course).



Whilst accepting that the vast majority of TLPs reported by visual observers are bogus, there do seem to be occasional events which are not readily explained away. For instance, the event in Alphonsus recorded with a photographic spectrum by Kozyrev in 1958.

I really don't see the conflict between the Moon being essentially dead geologically, and occasional (rare) outgassing events. We simply do not have instrumental coverage sufficient to rule out activity other than meteor strikes.

I guess I'm agnostic too!

BTW there was a paper in the 2013 August edition of the British Astronomical Association Journal "Revisiting the 1963 'Aristarchus events'" which has generated interesting discussion in the Letters section of subsequent editions. I believe both the article and the letters deserve careful study. "Smoking gun", well no, but absence of the "offensive weapon" is not proved either.


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David Gray
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Reged: 08/06/12

Loc: Co. Durham UK
Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: brianb11213]
      #6336157 - 01/26/14 08:06 AM

Not that I have ever made a dedicated effort but I have never seen TLPs.

An impression I had one night some years back was when the terrain north of Plato seemed to have an unusually pronounced russet hue that I could not get rid of but never experienced that again (16.3" D-K). I was struck enough to mention it to Richard Baum at the time.

Given the common use of binoviewers nowadays a simpler moon-blink device might be feasible with a different filter in each eyepiece. Perhaps swapping periodically in case of some individual eye differences. Not saying anything ground-breaking will come of it but no harm in giving it a go suck it and see! I leave the very minimal construction practicalities to the individual.


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azure1961p
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Re: published selenology today 34 new [Re: David Gray]
      #6336322 - 01/26/14 10:29 AM

Brian,

Kozyrevs work was found to be in error based on tracking issues - the telescope that added in its own artifacts in the spectra. When he did the A-B comparison and indeed there was a difference it was only because his tracking had improved by that point and so less artifacts in the resultant spectra. It would seem - apart from his personal issues - he had a difficult time ever getting a true positive or establishing a control for an A-B comparison. He was one tortured fellow Ill say that.

Pete


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