Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home pageAstronomics discounts for Cloudy Nights members
· Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt · Submit a Review / Article

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu… uh, User

Speciality Forums >> Science! Astronomy & Space Exploration, and Others

Pages: 1 | 2 | (show all)
Andy Taylor
Twisted, but in a Good Way
*****

Reged: 09/24/08

Loc: Epsom - UK
Fusion progress?
      #6302037 - 01/09/14 12:59 PM

Here

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Qwickdraw
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: Andy Taylor]
      #6302523 - 01/09/14 05:00 PM

"the amount of energy released through the fusion reaction exceeded the amount of energy being absorbed by the fuel - the first time this had been achieved at any fusion facility in the world."

Is this stated this way to fool people into thinking a real milestone was reached or should it have been stated "exceeded the amount of energy USED to power the fusion reaction", a very big difference.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
groz
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/14/07

Loc: Campbell River, BC
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #6302856 - 01/09/14 07:31 PM

The article is very clear, less energy was created that it took to power the lasers.

Fusion was 20 years in the future, back when I was a kid and fission power plants were the vogue. It's now 40 years later, and fusion is still 'about 20 years out'.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ekyprotic
super member
**

Reged: 11/28/12

Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: groz]
      #6303437 - 01/10/14 02:57 AM

and our manned missions still have not progressed beyond the Moon (though the planned one way trip to Mars may change that in the next 10 years)

moral of the story- human progress has slowed to a crawl.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Charlie B
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 03/22/08

Loc: Sterling, Virginia
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: Ekyprotic]
      #6303697 - 01/10/14 08:45 AM

Quote:

moral of the story- human progress has slowed to a crawl.




Human progress has always progressed in bursts. During the dark ages, it really slowed to a crawl. There is still significant progress in other areas that may ultimately be applicable to fusion, spaceflight etc. Don't equate our current US budgetary problems and political lack of will to explore to human progress.

Regards,
Charlie B


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: Charlie B]
      #6303860 - 01/10/14 10:23 AM

Actually, in materials and electronics and biology, human progress has exploded.

In other, less tangible, non-technological areas, it does sometimes appear to have ground to a halt or moved backwards.

It all depends on how you define "progress".


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: groz]
      #6303888 - 01/10/14 10:32 AM

Quote:

The article is very clear, less energy was created that it took to power the lasers.

Fusion was 20 years in the future, back when I was a kid and fission power plants were the vogue. It's now 40 years later, and fusion is still 'about 20 years out'.




Of course, fusion wasn't really 20 years in the future then. That meme is often used to minimize or negate whatever real progress is actually being made. Fusion turned out to be much, much harder than anyone anticipated when it was first being envisioned. After all, it worked in H-bombs with early 1950's technology, how hard could it be?

The progress that we have made is real, though. The models are much more sophisticated, our understanding of what is happening at the micro level has improved tremendously. And, to paraphrase Edison, we've found thousands of ways that don't work.

What's being reported is still less than break-even, but it's a real, tangible step in that direction that hadn't been made before. Even when we get to break-even, there's still a tremendous amount of work to be done to figure out how to recover that energy and efficiently convert it to electricity while preserving the materials of the containment vessel. And then there will be the challenge of constructing the plants economically and in realistic sizes. It's going to be a long time before fusion really becomes practical, but I'm not going to count it out as a viable future energy source.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
The Mighty Mo
professor emeritus


Reged: 10/12/13

Loc: South of North, North of South...
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: groz]
      #6312100 - 01/14/14 11:26 AM

Quote:

The article is very clear, less energy was created that it took to power the lasers.

Fusion was 20 years in the future, back when I was a kid and fission power plants were the vogue. It's now 40 years later, and fusion is still 'about 20 years out'.




I've heard the same thing for over 50 years now. I'm not holding my breath that efficient, self-sustaining fusion will be realized in my lifetime.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
penguinx64
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/12/13

Loc: Holland
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: The Mighty Mo]
      #6385215 - 02/19/14 06:12 PM

I doubt I'll be driving a Fusion powered Toyota Prius in my lifetime.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: western Colorado
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: penguinx64]
      #6385558 - 02/19/14 09:17 PM

Quote:


I doubt I'll be driving a Fusion powered Toyota Prius in my lifetime.






Ah, the dreams of limitless power are sweet, indeed. But if fusion power becomes a reality, it won't be cheap. Rest assured that start-up costs will be huge, and whoever foots the bill and owns the means of producing that power (probably one or more of today's familiar multinational energy conglomerates) will be in a position to stick it to the rest of us. In other words, don't look for a reduction in your electric bill.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
The Mighty Mo
professor emeritus


Reged: 10/12/13

Loc: South of North, North of South...
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: penguinx64]
      #6385753 - 02/19/14 11:12 PM

Quote:

I doubt I'll be driving a Fusion powered Toyota Prius in my lifetime.




No, but I'm still hoping GM will restart their Hydrogen car program they were forced to stop some years back to build the Volt. Or maybe someone else will pick it up and continue the work and bring it to conclusion and introduction. That would be such a good, clean, solution for transportation.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Andy Taylor
Twisted, but in a Good Way
*****

Reged: 09/24/08

Loc: Epsom - UK
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: The Mighty Mo]
      #6386048 - 02/20/14 04:47 AM

More news

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: ColoHank]
      #6386211 - 02/20/14 08:15 AM

Quote:

Quote:


I doubt I'll be driving a Fusion powered Toyota Prius in my lifetime.






We need an efficient catalyst for fusion. Perhaps someway to produce copious amounts of Muons or figure a way to allow them to persist to catalyze fusion longer.

Or maybe there is something in the LENR's that we don't understand but may eventually become practical.

Hot Fusion is always going to require big, expensive Industrial sized facilities when it becomes practical. If we can find a way to catalyze it at lower temps, then maybe we can have a Mr. Fusion power our Prius.


Pesse (Confused fusion) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
groz
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/14/07

Loc: Campbell River, BC
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: The Mighty Mo]
      #6392451 - 02/23/14 02:03 PM

Quote:


No, but I'm still hoping GM will restart their Hydrogen car program they were forced to stop some years back to build the Volt. Or maybe someone else will pick it up and continue the work and bring it to conclusion and introduction. That would be such a good, clean, solution for transportation.




Take a quick peek where industrial hydrogen comes from. It's extracted from natural gas, doesn't appear magically out of thin air. It's got exactly the same 'clean' footprint as any natural gas burning energy source. The real difference, it just moves the 'unclean' part from the tailpipe, to the hydrogen producer.

This is the same with most folks hyping various 'clean' energy sources for transportation, they dont follow the entire chain, and understand that moving the emissions from the tailpipe to somewhere else, doesn't eliminate them, just moves them.

Edited by groz (02/23/14 02:06 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
davidpitre
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 05/10/05

Loc: Central Texas
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: groz]
      #6392534 - 02/23/14 02:54 PM

Quote:



It's got exactly the same 'clean' footprint as any natural gas burning energy source. The real difference, it just moves the 'unclean' part from the tailpipe, to the hydrogen producer.



Your point is correct, but , unless I'm mistaken, the above is not true. Hydrogen fuel cells are considerably more efficient than any internal combustion, such that from the same amount of natural gas used, hydrogen will produce quite a bit less carbon dioxide.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
maugi88
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/25/13

Loc: SE MN
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: davidpitre]
      #6392606 - 02/23/14 03:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:



It's got exactly the same 'clean' footprint as any natural gas burning energy source. The real difference, it just moves the 'unclean' part from the tailpipe, to the hydrogen producer.



Your point is correct, but , unless I'm mistaken, the above is not true. Hydrogen fuel cells are considerably more efficient than any internal combustion, such that from the same amount of natural gas used, hydrogen will produce quite a bit less carbon dioxide.




Water is the exhaust from a fuel cell. I don't believe they combust the hydrogen but produce electricity with it. I think.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: maugi88]
      #6392689 - 02/23/14 04:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



It's got exactly the same 'clean' footprint as any natural gas burning energy source. The real difference, it just moves the 'unclean' part from the tailpipe, to the hydrogen producer.



Your point is correct, but , unless I'm mistaken, the above is not true. Hydrogen fuel cells are considerably more efficient than any internal combustion, such that from the same amount of natural gas used, hydrogen will produce quite a bit less carbon dioxide.




Water is the exhaust from a fuel cell. I don't believe they combust the hydrogen but produce electricity with it. I think.





You guys are missing his point. While Hydrogen fuel cells are the ultimate in 'clean' running--they only produce water as their 'combustion product'. The Hydrogen has to come from somewhere.

Right now about 80% of hydrogen comes from reacting Methane gas in a couple of stages with the result that you end up with Carbon Dioxide & Hydrogen gas.

So while the 'Hydrogen' itself is a clean burning fuel, the method of Hydrogen production still requires the use of fossil fuels and the production of Carbon dioxide that--well--is not so clean.

Pesse (We still need a Mr. Fusion) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
The Mighty Mo
professor emeritus


Reged: 10/12/13

Loc: South of North, North of South...
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: Pess]
      #6392712 - 02/23/14 04:14 PM

Quote:

So while the 'Hydrogen' itself is a clean burning fuel, the method of Hydrogen production still requires the use of fossil fuels and the production of Carbon dioxide that--well--is not so clean.




So what, neither are electric vehicles like the Volt or Leaf. Where does the electricity to charge them comes from? And what about the environmental concerns to make batteries? Seems until fusion is ever practically realized, which I'm not looking to happen in my lifetime, good old coal and gas are our best and safest solutions.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
maugi88
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/25/13

Loc: SE MN
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: The Mighty Mo]
      #6392735 - 02/23/14 04:26 PM

Yeah, you are not going to find anything ever that doesn't have some kind of carbon footprint. Even if your running on nothing but wind. The product will have been built somewhere using processes and power that puts CO2 in the atmosphere. Didn't see the need to point it out as it is unavoidable. It did seem to me the poster I quoted thought the Hydrogen was being combusted, so I did misunderstand. I didn't miss the original point and was not responding to it.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Fusion progress? new [Re: The Mighty Mo]
      #6392824 - 02/23/14 05:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

So while the 'Hydrogen' itself is a clean burning fuel, the method of Hydrogen production still requires the use of fossil fuels and the production of Carbon dioxide that--well--is not so clean.




So what, neither are electric vehicles like the Volt or Leaf. Where does the electricity to charge them comes from? And what about the environmental concerns to make batteries? Seems until fusion is ever practically realized, which I'm not looking to happen in my lifetime, good old coal and gas are our best and safest solutions.




Coal needs to drop out of the acceptability column as soon as possible. Solar, fission (nuclear "classic") and wind can replace it. The idea that nuclear has been sidelined due to environmental concerns is one of the great ironies of our time.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | (show all)


Extra information
1 registered and 3 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  LivingNDixie, FirstSight, JayinUT 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 1063

Jump to

CN Forums Home


Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics