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Equipment Discussions >> Binoviewers

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DA53
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Reged: 11/23/12

Loc: Shoreview, MN
My Binotron-27 so far
      #6304352 - 01/10/14 02:19 PM

I received the Binotron I ordered in mid-December, and like everyone else, I am pleased with the careful packaging and quality of the unit itself. I also ordered two 68° ES 20mm eyepieces to use with the binoviewer.

The result is a unit that is rather heavy on a Celestron Nexstar 8SE, but manageable. I have used the whole set up about eight or nine times since. Seeing conditions have been terrible, and the weather has often been worse, so one has to take that into account. I also view from a second story balcony attached to my condo apartment, and the closeness to the surfaces of the building may affect seeing as well.

So far, I have seen no appreciable difference in the image quality the Binotron delivers and what my much cheaper WO binoviewer delivers (I am viewing Jupiter and the moon). If the length of the light path were an issue, I have the 45 degree OCS attachment which, Russ tells me, ensures that I am engaging the full 8 inches of the mirror. This unit added to the weight of the binoviewer to the point, however, that I am afraid to use it again, and I didn't really see any difference with or without it.

In the fall, the WO gave me (with this telescope) the best image of Jupiter I have ever seen through a telescope-better than the Binotron has yet given me.

So there, for what they are worth at this point, are my observations. I will wait for better seeing conditions before I add anything further.

Edited by DA53 (01/10/14 08:18 PM)


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crow
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: DA53]
      #6304441 - 01/10/14 03:07 PM

Well, I'd say you definitely need more time with them, Many experienced users on here have noted no difference optically with the Baader Mark V. You also mention the seeing, which the Binotrons as good as they are, are not going to drill though, so give yourself some time.

A couple of people own both I believe so your mileage may vary but be confident you've picked a world class binoviewer in the Binotrons.

I've never used the WO's.


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DA53
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Loc: Shoreview, MN
Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: crow]
      #6304467 - 01/10/14 03:22 PM

I should add that one night I did see the craterlets in Plato on the moon better than I have before through the Binotron. On a few evenings the collimation of the telescope was off, so that moons of Jupiter had tails. That was easily fixed, and I moved on.

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Eddgie
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: DA53]
      #6304752 - 01/10/14 06:15 PM

I can't say that I saw a big difference between my inexpensive Binoviewers and top end binoviewers, so I would not be surprised that you did not get an "Oh My Gosh" kind of experience.

The benefit of these systems is really more the ability to get a much wider true field than with the inexpensive BVs.

I suspect that like Crow mentions, seeing is your big factor.

Also, you are likely using more power than you think. Without the OCS, a C8 is working at more like 2400mm to 2500mm (depending on your exact configuration and when used straight through).

Try backing down power a bit and see if things look a bit sharper.


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Astrojensen
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6304794 - 01/10/14 07:01 PM

Quote:

The benefit of these systems is really more the ability to get a much wider true field than with the inexpensive BVs.




True. The inexpensive binoviewers seem to have excellent prisms and collimation these days, generally speaking.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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swampdog
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Reged: 10/18/12

Loc: Minnesota
Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6305408 - 01/11/14 02:19 AM

I concur with responses, give it more time...the Binotrons are superb, and I totally agree with your seeing evaluation, there hasn't been a decent sky since November, & I hail from the Detroit Lakes area of Minnesota, the weather's been rather brutal! So yeah, the W/O binos are nice, but Denks... much more versatile. Personally I found the OCS, while it worked, was too much power in the sct's (I've had the B-27's since last summer), just keep the light path reasonably short and enjoy, but the OCS will shine with the refractor and dob!

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DA53
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Loc: Shoreview, MN
Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: swampdog]
      #6305760 - 01/11/14 09:39 AM

Russ says that you cannot use the reduction mode when you attach the OCS, but it will give you 1X relative to the eyepieces you are using.

I replaced the ES eyepieces with 25mm Plössls, by the way, and again, apart from a narrower view at less power, did not see any increase in viewing quality.

As for light path, I probably will invest in the new Denkmeier IVB Star Quartz Mirror Dielectric Diagonal if I continue to see no improvement. But at this point, all of this is getting quite expensive.


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faackanders2
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: DA53]
      #6306325 - 01/11/14 02:36 PM

Quote:

Russ says that you cannot use the reduction mode when you attach the OCS, but it will give you 1X relative to the eyepieces you are using....




What? I use reduction mode all the time with my Denk II and Dobsonian.


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nicklane1
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6306521 - 01/11/14 04:21 PM

Quote:

I can't say that I saw a big difference between my inexpensive Binoviewers and top end binoviewers, so I would not be surprised that you did not get an "Oh My Gosh" kind of experience.

The benefit of these systems is really more the ability to get a much wider true field than with the inexpensive BVs.

I suspect that like Crow mentions, seeing is your big factor.

Also, you are likely using more power than you think. Without the OCS, a C8 is working at more like 2400mm to 2500mm (depending on your exact configuration and when used straight through).

Try backing down power a bit and see if things look a bit sharper.




So many folks with binoviewers never go back to mono viewing. So bottom line, will inexpensive binoviewers provide the "wow factor" compared to mono viewing?


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DA53
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Loc: Shoreview, MN
Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: faackanders2]
      #6306997 - 01/11/14 08:33 PM

In an SCT--not in a Dob.

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johnnyha
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: DA53]
      #6307080 - 01/11/14 09:28 PM

The difference in quality of the B27s is more evident as you increase magnification, which obviously requires good seeing. Give it some time but I agree that the quality of the less expensive binos is surprisingly good.

Edited by johnnyha (01/11/14 09:28 PM)


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Ava
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: DA53]
      #6307466 - 01/12/14 02:22 AM

If you want to shorten the light path a prism diagonal would generally be more suitable, for instance the badder T2 prisms (ordinary or Zeiss). Not sure about how one would go about connecting one to the binotron though, adapters might eat more than you gain I guess.

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axle01
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: Ava]
      #6307538 - 01/12/14 05:15 AM

Quote:

If you want to shorten the light path a prism diagonal would generally be more suitable, for instance the badder T2 prisms (ordinary or Zeiss). Not sure about how one would go about connecting one to the binotron though, adapters might eat more than you gain I guess.




Ava this thread will show how to connect a bino 27 to a Baader prism.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5984517/page...


.

Edited by axle01 (01/12/14 05:16 AM)


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Adam S
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: nicklane1]
      #6307721 - 01/12/14 09:33 AM

Nick, the first time I used a binoviewer a decision was made to never go back to monoviewing. I couldn't believe the improved experience on planets, the Sun and the Moon in my refractors. Within a month or so I began to go back and forth between mono and bino on DSOs and with many of them the light loss was very notable in four and five inch refractors (Tak FS 102 and AP 130). Most significant losses are on GCs.

If I had 12" or more in aperture I'd likely binoviewer full time. I love refractors for many reasons and find myself using a Denk II for the solar system and going mono outside of it.

The wow factor is real, light loss is as well. Aperture trumps a lot of the light loss. If I ever get an 18" dob the Denk will live in the focuser.


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nicklane1
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: Adam S]
      #6307864 - 01/12/14 10:47 AM

Quote:

Nick, the first time I used a binoviewer a decision was made to never go back to monoviewing. I couldn't believe the improved experience on planets, the Sun and the Moon in my refractors. Within a month or so I began to go back and forth between mono and bino on DSOs and with many of them the light loss was very notable in four and five inch refractors (Tak FS 102 and AP 130). Most significant losses are on GCs.

If I had 12" or more in aperture I'd likely binoviewer full time. I love refractors for many reasons and find myself using a Denk II for the solar system and going mono outside of it.

The wow factor is real, light loss is as well. Aperture trumps a lot of the light loss. If I ever get an 18" dob the Denk will live in the focuser.




Thanks Adam. Your response was very helpful. It answered many questions that I had.

I've been thinking about getting a Binotron-27, but since many folks don't believe there is a big difference between top end and inexpensive binoviewers, is it really worth it?

From my perspective and from the standpoint of "total package" I believe a top end eyepiece is worth it.


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Adam S
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: nicklane1]
      #6308042 - 01/12/14 12:22 PM

If you can afford it do it. My experience is that seeing has more to do with the payoff than any other factor. From my current home seeing is atrocious, I rarely get above a 4 on the Pickering scale. Can't imagine there'd be any difference between the Binotron and an entry level unit. When we lived 30 miles north of our current home it was a much better site. I started out with a standard Denk and Russ convinced me that I'd love the Denk II. I did it and was able to see less scatter around bright objects on virtually any given night. It may have been in my head, but the clarity of planetary detail was better as well. Worth the extra money in a good area, plus you never have to second guess whether or not you should have gone big (this is assuming you can afford to go big without breaking the bank).

Edited by Adam S (01/12/14 12:28 PM)


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DA53
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Loc: Shoreview, MN
Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: Adam S]
      #6308091 - 01/12/14 12:49 PM

There is no going back for me from binoviewing to monoviewing, at least for the moon, planets and brighter DSOs. And for many where viewing is better than it is here, the Binotron is a superior unit to the WO one. But I still have to see the difference for myself.

I placed 25mm Plössls into the Binotron last night, and did get a clearer view and sharper, albeit smaller, view of Jupiter. I believe I actually saw the GRS, in fact, which wasn't visible with the ES eyepieces. Then I started messing with the collimation, and that made things worse. After two hours in the cold, I gave it up for another time.


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Eddgie
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: Adam S]
      #6310185 - 01/13/14 12:26 PM

Quote:

If I had 12" or more in aperture I'd likely binoviewer full time.




Yes, the desire to binoview full time was a key component in my move from the C14 to a 12" dob (major reason was the logistics of the C14 was getting to much, but the BV component was a factor as well).

Once I started to binoview, I just could no longer enjoy mono viewing.

In the end, of the key reasons I went with a 12" rather than 14" was the focal length and true field. The 12", even with the 1.7x GPC, gives me almost as wide a true field as I could get in the C14 using mono-vision and that was my "treashold". Despite the narrow field of the C14, there were actually very few objects that would not fit into the field with the 41mm Pan.

I tried the Binotron briefly, but it was more than I could spend at the time (I already owned a pair of Mark Vs).

I really loved the power-switchs in the Binotron though, and still hope to get a Denk II or Binotron one day, though budget being what it is, I have been looking for a pair of used Denk IIs.


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contrailmaker
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6310360 - 01/13/14 02:02 PM

Dave

How is the Nexstar mount handling the extra weight? Mine stated showing signs of strain when I used the heavier Pentax EPs with the Denks. The motors had a hard time tracking under certain conditions. I ultimately sold the the Nexstar since I had bought a 6" APO refractor with a very sturdy mount but I sure miss my C8.

CM


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DA53
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Reged: 11/23/12

Loc: Shoreview, MN
Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: contrailmaker]
      #6311220 - 01/13/14 09:54 PM

I have the scope pushed all the up on the mount as far as the rail will go. It seems to do all right for now, but I notice sometimes that the slightest touch will cause the back of the scope to move down and the front up. So I use my ES 34mm eyepiece to help me find what I am looking for, and then insert the binoviewer into the diagonal. I hope that reduces wear on tracking and slewing mechanism.

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herrointment
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: DA53]
      #6313049 - 01/14/14 07:49 PM

You can tighten up the alt clutch nut. A tiny amount of movement is all that is usually needed to firm up any slippage. Something on the order of 1/8" movement (Not 1/8 of a full turn) of the nut.

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faackanders2
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: Adam S]
      #6313075 - 01/14/14 07:58 PM

Quote:

Nick, the first time I used a binoviewer a decision was made to never go back to monoviewing. I couldn't believe the improved experience on planets, the Sun and the Moon in my refractors. Within a month or so I began to go back and forth between mono and bino on DSOs and with many of them the light loss was very notable in four and five inch refractors (Tak FS 102 and AP 130). Most significant losses are on GCs.

If I had 12" or more in aperture I'd likely binoviewer full time. I love refractors for many reasons and find myself using a Denk II for the solar system and going mono outside of it.

The wow factor is real, light loss is as well. Aperture trumps a lot of the light loss. If I ever get an 18" dob the Denk will live in the focuser.




For the really dim objects monoviewing is required. Also large and multiple objects often require a wider true field of view (40mm 70 AFOV, 30mm 82 AFOV, 20mm 100 AFOV).

Before 100 AFOV, I used my binoviewers almost all the time. Since 100 AFOV, I prefer 100 AFOV mono viewing (I briefly has two 10mm ethos for binoviewing, but returned one due to multiple ray issues on bright jupiter in LL 1x power mode). My primary scope is a 17.5" f4.1 dob.


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DA53
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Loc: Shoreview, MN
Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: DA53]
      #6334652 - 01/25/14 11:55 AM Attachment (22 downloads)

The Baader T2-1C prism diagonal with (most of) necessary T2 connectors arrived yesterday, and the Binotron to T2 adapter arrived from Russ today. I have used a High Point 2" SCT adapter to attach the whole Binotron-diagonal setup to my 8SE.

Edited by DA53 (01/25/14 12:03 PM)


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crow
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: DA53]
      #6334687 - 01/25/14 12:12 PM

It looks like you've still got the nosepiece on the Binotron?

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DA53
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: crow]
      #6334693 - 01/25/14 12:16 PM

No, I took it off. The new adaptor threads in where the nosepiece was.

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crow
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: DA53]
      #6334719 - 01/25/14 12:29 PM

Cool. Looks like a chunkier adapter than I imagined though. I'm guessing it goes into the baader quick changer?

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Eddgie
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: DA53]
      #6334769 - 01/25/14 12:50 PM Attachment (9 downloads)

If you are running on the 8SE, then you don't need to be able to rotate the diagonal.


Of course this lets you change back and forth between a 2" diagonal and the binoviewer easily, but here is a configuration that will reduce your focal lenght by 90mm and give you clearance at the base when viewing at zenith..

It is the baader 10mm T2 to SCT..

Edited by Eddgie (01/25/14 12:50 PM)


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DA53
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6334783 - 01/25/14 12:56 PM

Yes, it goes into the Baader Quickchanger. The chunkiness that you see is probably that. The T2 adaptor is rather small, and it doesn't thread into the Quickchanger at all--it just slides in, and you tighten the Quickchanger with a thumbscrew.

Ed, in an oversight, I didn't order one of the Baader T2 to SCT adaptors. I'll do that in the future, after my pocketbook recuperates.

Edited by DA53 (01/25/14 12:59 PM)


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George N
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: DA53]
      #6335206 - 01/25/14 04:25 PM

Quote:

There is no going back for me from binoviewing to monoviewing, at least for the moon, planets and brighter DSOs. And for many where viewing is better than it is here, the Binotron is a superior unit to the WO one. But I still have to see the difference for myself.

....




I'd bet that you would see a difference for solar/lunar/planets only under the best of seeing.

I also think the more expensive units help when hunting down the very dimmest of deep sky objects because their superior coatings and polish pass more light. That's important to me because much of my observing involves pushing my 20-inch 'as deep as possible' on galaxy groups and other 14th mag dim stuff while observing under very dark skies.

As for bino vs mono: I'm doing about 50/50. I prefer the bino, both for the wonderful views, and because it is less tiring using 2 eyes when observing all night, for several nights in a row. However, I'm more likely to go mono with my smaller scopes, and when needing to get going quickly in the evening. The bino can sometimes involve too much fiddling around putting together when it suddenly clears up at 1 AM at a remote dark sky site, or cold weather requires gloves.

Another time I go mono: If I'm observing with a few friends who just can't get the bino to merge, or if I'm likely to face long lines of visitors at star parties or outreach. I have used the bino with small groups of 'public' (6 or less people at a time) with little problem - although it does take some extra explaining beyond 'look in there'. However even Russ has told me that he goes mono for public outreach events.


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DA53
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Reged: 11/23/12

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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: George N]
      #6335520 - 01/25/14 07:33 PM

In fact, George, I HAVE seen a big difference with the WO binoviewers already, and the difference was noticeable almost every time I looked through them at the moon, sun, or planets. A recent view of the Orion Nebula also produced a stunning 3-dimensional spacewalk affect. For these reasons, I was willing to go spend a great deal of money on the Binotron. The improvement is there over mono viewing, there is no question.

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johnnyha
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: DA53]
      #6337027 - 01/26/14 04:25 PM

Quote:

The Baader T2-1C prism diagonal with (most of) necessary T2 connectors arrived yesterday, and the Binotron to T2 adapter arrived from Russ today. I have used a High Point 2" SCT adapter to attach the whole Binotron-diagonal setup to my 8SE.



Something still looks wrong here, the B27 should attach directly to the prism diagonal housing with the adapter or the adapter/Quickchanger, as in Eddgie's photo, it should be low profile. It almost looks like the nosepiece is on top, or there is an extra part attached? And maybe its the angle but it doesn't look like the diagonal is centered in the visual back. Maybe I just need some coffee!


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DA53
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: johnnyha]
      #6337223 - 01/26/14 05:52 PM Attachment (21 downloads)

Here is the Binotron assembly in question: the Binotron, the Binotron-T2 adapter (which I am holding), the T2 Quickchanger, and the T2-1C prism diagonal.

Edited by DA53 (01/26/14 05:52 PM)


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crow
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: DA53]
      #6337362 - 01/26/14 06:43 PM

Looks like the powerswitch is what looks like a nosepiece, looks weird in the side on shot, doesn't look like you have a PS on there.

The above looks good. I have the adapter on the way, so thanks.


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DA53
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: crow]
      #6337367 - 01/26/14 06:46 PM

No, you remove the 2" nosepiece to attach the adapter.

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Eddgie
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: DA53]
      #6339010 - 01/27/14 03:24 PM

To be fair, the 10mm Connector is really at its best on a fork mounted scope.

The 15mm connector allows you to rotate the diagonal like you do with a standard SCT diagonal, using a compression collar.

But on a GEM, this is all kind of clunky. For that, a standard or short visual back is probably preferable, and you look like that is where you are.

So, may not be worth it to you to shorten up from where you are. Very incremental gain from now on. The big gain is going to direct attachment to a 1.25" Prism from a 2" diagonal. That is the power-play. Cutting another 10mm won't make much differene.

Sure, I did it, but if you did everything I did, whoever you report to (wife, girl friend, CEO, whatever) would perpetually frown at you.

I am remarkably resistant to the prolonged frown behaviors so for me, it is OK to buy what I like...



Edited by Eddgie (01/27/14 03:40 PM)


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DA53
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6339595 - 01/27/14 08:36 PM

Thanks, Ed. And, congratulations again!

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johnnyha
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: crow]
      #6339866 - 01/27/14 10:36 PM

Quote:

Looks like the powerswitch is what looks like a nosepiece, looks weird in the side on shot, doesn't look like you have a PS on there.

The above looks good. I have the adapter on the way, so thanks.



Yeh sorry Dave, Crow called it, it is the PowerSwitch! Couldn't see the arms from that angle, it looked funny.


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DA53
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Re: My Binotron-27 so far new [Re: johnnyha]
      #6341236 - 01/28/14 03:00 PM

I checked out the configuration with Russ, and he said it was right. He did comment, however, that the biopters on the Binotron are set higher and lower, and that I should read carefully how these should be positioned.

I just wish this weather would warm up and clear up the sky, and that I had Russ' great collimating skills!


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