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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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ewave
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 05/16/09

Loc: northwest NJ
Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: Patrick]
      #6319239 - 01/17/14 06:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Patrick, which is used for visual mostly, your C11 or your new C8 Edge?




For outreach I plan on continuing to use the C11. The 27 Pan is probably my most used eyepiece in that scope. And the Pan also works well in the C8.

For personal use, it will be a toss up between the C8 and the 'frac. I'll take a look at the 12 and 14mm Delos.

Between the 12-14 Delos and the NT6 13 it sounds like you prefer the Delos?

Patrick



Well some other mentionables about the Delos. You can twist (and lock) the eyepiece up or down for a more comfortable position while viewing, but that may cut down on the eye relief slightly, but negates the effects of anything touching the ep glass. Also, the Delos 14 and 17 are not parfocal with the 8mm. But I would still recommend the 14D.


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coutleef
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Reged: 02/21/08

Loc: Saint-Donat, Québec, Canada
Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: ewave]
      #6319256 - 01/17/14 06:54 PM

i use the 14 and 8 delos in my c8 and really like them

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BillP
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Reged: 11/26/06

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Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: ibase]
      #6319331 - 01/17/14 07:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


Besides, the French mag had deemed that the decade-old Pentax XW was dethroned by the Delos in its lab test results pitting various top-notch EP's in the 10mm arena.






Interesting that the user reports out there seem to converge (IMO) on that it is a wash between the two, and no dethroning at all and more of a sharing of the throne. But perhaps the XW is not the best choice for lab-observing after all




Lol, well, not all observers; take the case of Alvin Huey, to whom many look out for when it comes to big scopes (he uses 22" up apertures) EP comparisons. Even before the French tests, he had been saying all along that Delos was better than Pentax XW for detecting faint objects,...




He also said the Ethos beat the XW in threshold tests. But let's not forget that the ZAO beats them all. So no dethroning the XWs because of transmission...that crown goes to min glass eyepieces

Thrones are won (and lost) by more than single criteria anyway...so planetary performance, exit pupil behavior, on-axis field performance, a variety of off-axis field performance factors, ergonomics, dust/weather resistance, etc. etc. So not a cut and dry thing as we've seen by numerous people reporting it as a toss up, and some leaning one way or the other. Both grand EPs with their own kingdoms (and one with a Buddha don't forget ). Regardless of who has the throne, note that it is an "Eyepiece" that occupies that title and stature


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Sarkikos
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Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: Starman1]
      #6319399 - 01/17/14 08:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

"I might have eventually replaced the XW's with Delos"

As they're not the same f/ls...don't replace....merge.....



Oooh.
20/17.3/14/12/10/8/7/6/5/4.5/3.5
Looks like a dream combination.
That could be the set for every scope, lacking only the large eyepieces at the low end:
41 down to 22 depending on scope and low power desired.
It's too many eyepieces, probably, but not too many for a lot of CNers who have a lot more. They'd add a 2-4mm zoom at the high end "just in case".




At one point I had three times that many eyepieces in the case I take to my dark site. So the number - or the weight - is not a problem. What can be a problem is switching among so many eyepieces while observing. For me, that became a drag on what I came to the dark site to do - observe objects, not juggle optics.

Now I make do with a Leica ASPH + Barlow, Baader Zoom, NZ 2-4, NZ 3-6, and a small entourage of single focal length eyepieces to fill in the gaps - not many - and to perform special functions. IME, the less switching eyepieces, the more seeing objects.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: BillP]
      #6319422 - 01/17/14 08:48 PM

Quote:

Regardless of who has the throne, note that it is an "Eyepiece" that occupies that title and stature




Watch out! You might have to answer to the Chief of the Optics Police!


Mike


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Patrick
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Reged: 05/16/03

Loc: Franklin, Ohio
Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: coutleef]
      #6319665 - 01/17/14 11:38 PM

Quote:

i use the 14 and 8 delos in my c8 and really like them




Good to know since I ordered both of them today!

Patrick


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ibase
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Reged: 03/20/08

Loc: Manila, Philippines 121*E 14*N
Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: BillP]
      #6319732 - 01/18/14 12:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


Besides, the French mag had deemed that the decade-old Pentax XW was dethroned by the Delos in its lab test results pitting various top-notch EP's in the 10mm arena.






Interesting that the user reports out there seem to converge (IMO) on that it is a wash between the two, and no dethroning at all and more of a sharing of the throne. But perhaps the XW is not the best choice for lab-observing after all




Lol, well, not all observers; take the case of Alvin Huey, to whom many look out for when it comes to big scopes (he uses 22" up apertures) EP comparisons. Even before the French tests, he had been saying all along that Delos was better than Pentax XW for detecting faint objects,...




He also said the Ethos beat the XW in threshold tests. But let's not forget that the ZAO beats them all. So no dethroning the XWs because of transmission...that crown goes to min glass eyepieces

Thrones are won (and lost) by more than single criteria anyway...so planetary performance, exit pupil behavior, on-axis field performance, a variety of off-axis field performance factors, ergonomics, dust/weather resistance, etc. etc. So not a cut and dry thing as we've seen by numerous people reporting it as a toss up, and some leaning one way or the other. Both grand EPs with their own kingdoms (and one with a Buddha don't forget ). Regardless of who has the throne, note that it is an "Eyepiece" that occupies that title and stature




You're right, the ZAO is THE top dog, there's no contesting that. But remember, the French tests were about which widefiled (70° up AFOV which the ZAO is not) reigns supreme like in the Nikon NAV SW-10, Ethos 10, Takahashi 10-UW, Pentax XW10 and Delos 10.

And just like the results in Alvin Huey's big scopes field tests for threshold objects, the ranking by the French lab tests dovetailed the same pecking order:

1. Delos (best)
2. Ethos
3. Pentax XW

Parallel conclusions on optical prowess which matter most (without prejudice to other criteria) - both laboratory & big-scope field tests concurred that Delos is the best widefield; just because one couldn't tell the difference in small scopes doesn't mean that the difference doesn't exist and thus a toss-up, it's simply that the scope being used is not big enough in this case.

Best,


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rockethead26
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Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: ibase]
      #6319966 - 01/18/14 07:54 AM

Quote:

And just like the results in Alvin Huey's big scopes field tests for threshold objects, the ranking by the French lab tests dovetailed the same pecking order:

1. Delos (best)
2. Ethos
3. Pentax XW

Parallel conclusions on optical prowess which matter most (without prejudice to other criteria) - both laboratory & big-scope field tests concurred that Delos is the best widefield; just because one couldn't tell the difference in small scopes doesn't mean that the difference doesn't exist and thus a toss-up, it's simply that the scope being used is not big enough in this case.

Best,




My guess is that it would take a night with excellent seeing using a top notch scope and an exceptional observer to see the transmission and contrast differences in those three eyepieces. Most of us fall short on one or two of the above requirements on any given night.


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John Anthony
sage
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Reged: 04/27/13

Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: Patrick]
      #6320466 - 01/18/14 01:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i use the 14 and 8 delos in my c8 and really like them




Good to know since I ordered both of them today!

Patrick




Patrick if you haven't already had the pleasure of using the Delos eyepieces you are really going to like them with the 90mm scope. They seem to always surprise me everytime I use them with my 92mm APO, nice eye relief, wide field and wonderfully sharp for a eyepiece that has a good number of elements in it. Just a fantastic do it all eyepiece, I'm slowly getting all of them.


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John Anthony
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Reged: 04/27/13

Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: rockethead26]
      #6320504 - 01/18/14 01:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

And just like the results in Alvin Huey's big scopes field tests for threshold objects, the ranking by the French lab tests dovetailed the same pecking order:

1. Delos (best)
2. Ethos
3. Pentax XW

Parallel conclusions on optical prowess which matter most (without prejudice to other criteria) - both laboratory & big-scope field tests concurred that Delos is the best widefield; just because one couldn't tell the difference in small scopes doesn't mean that the difference doesn't exist and thus a toss-up, it's simply that the scope being used is not big enough in this case.

Best,




My guess is that it would take a night with excellent seeing using a top notch scope and an exceptional observer to see the transmission and contrast differences in those three eyepieces. Most of us fall short on one or two of the above requirements on any given night.




+ 1, I can't see how you can go wrong with any of those eyepieces, the discernible differences would be hard to see and would indeed "take a night with excellent seeing using a top notch scope and an exceptional observer to see the transmission and contrast differences in those three eyepieces". Personally I say the Delos and Pentax are the way to go just because of the price compared to the Ethos, you're just not getting much more for such a step up in price with the Ethos but I can understand how some would want the larger FOV.


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Sarkikos
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: John Anthony]
      #6320633 - 01/18/14 02:21 PM

I have owned and used Delos 4.5 and 6, and XW's 3.5, 5, 7, 10 and 20. To my eye, the most obvious and immediate difference between the Delos and XW was the ease of finding and maintaining the best eye position with the XW compared to the relative difficulty in doing so with the Delos.

IME, the XW's were just easier and more comfortable to use right out of the box. Not so with the Delos. IMO this is why TeleVue has made such a point to get the eyeguard right, in order to help the observer set the optimal position for viewing through the Delos. This was also a big deal with the Radians and their Instadjust design.

That said, I still own a Delos 4.5. I've sold all my XW's since acquiring a Leica ASPH and Ethos-SX 3.7. But I wanted to keep at least one of TeleVue's latest and greatest. After all, there is that point about high light transmission for the Delos.

Mike


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John Anthony
sage
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Reged: 04/27/13

Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6320716 - 01/18/14 03:12 PM

Quote:

I have owned and used Delos 4.5 and 6, and XW's 3.5, 5, 7, 10 and 20. To my eye, the most obvious and immediate difference between the Delos and XW was the ease of finding and maintaining the best eye position with the XW compared to the relative difficulty in doing so with the Delos.

IME, the XW's were just easier and more comfortable to use right out of the box. Not so with the Delos. IMO this is why TeleVue has made such a point to get the eyeguard right, in order to help the observer set the optimal position for viewing through the Delos. This was also a big deal with the Radians and their Instadjust design.

That said, I still own a Delos 4.5. I've sold all my XW's since acquiring a Leica ASPH and Ethos-SX 3.7. But I wanted to keep at least one of TeleVue's latest and greatest. After all, there is that point about high light transmission for the Delos.

Mike




I experienced the same with the Pentax XL's compared to the Delos, Pentax was very comfortable to use, this is not say the Delos was problematic, the difference for me was slight but noticeable. I still feel overall the Delos was slightly a better performer then the Pentax XL, the Pentax imparting a somewhat warmer tone and the Delos with better light transmission.


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Sarkikos
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Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: John Anthony]
      #6321305 - 01/18/14 09:47 PM

I had an XL 5.2 for a short time, but soon replaced it with an XW 5. The Pentax XW's were neutral toned. My LVW 8 was a little warm by comparison. The Delos so far seem about as neutral as the XW's.

Many eyepieces seem a touch warm when compared to the Pentax XO's. When viewing Jupiter, my Leica ASPH has a slightly warm tone in comparison to the XO's. But when I compared my Leica to the XW, they both seemed neutral. IME, the XO's appear neutral-to-cool.

On the other hand, TV Plossls are just obviously warm when viewing Jupiter or the Moon. I don't need to compare them to other eyepieces to see that.

Mike


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ibase
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Reged: 03/20/08

Loc: Manila, Philippines 121*E 14*N
Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: rockethead26]
      #6321330 - 01/18/14 10:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

And just like the results in Alvin Huey's big scopes field tests for threshold objects, the ranking by the French lab tests dovetailed the same pecking order:

1. Delos (best)
2. Ethos
3. Pentax XW

Parallel conclusions on optical prowess which matter most (without prejudice to other criteria) - both laboratory & big-scope field tests concurred that Delos is the best widefield; just because one couldn't tell the difference in small scopes doesn't mean that the difference doesn't exist and thus a toss-up, it's simply that the scope being used is not big enough in this case.

Best,




My guess is that it would take a night with excellent seeing using a top notch scope and an exceptional observer to see the transmission and contrast differences in those three eyepieces. Most of us fall short on one or two of the above requirements on any given night.




Agree.

Best,


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ibase
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Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6321349 - 01/18/14 10:16 PM

Quote:

To my eye, the most obvious and immediate difference between the Delos and XW was the ease of finding and maintaining the best eye position with the XW compared to the relative difficulty in doing so with the Delos.




Here's the other side of the coin - just like another forum member who recently posted here, Delos was better at beaning/blacking out control than Pentax XW. That's why mentioned earlier in the thread being quite happy trading the Pentax XW previously owned to get the Delos, which to my eye is less prone to beaning or blackouts (comparison with eyecups fully retracted). With the Pentax XW, just a slight off-than-optimal eye position would trigger the bean right away, whereas with the Delos, the leeway is wider, thus resulting in a less constrained head/eye position that's more forgiving of lateral movements, and ultimately more comfortable to use.

Another factor to consider is that if one has been using the Pentax XW for some time already, then tests a new Delos, more likely than not the Pentax XW will be judged better for eye-placement; give the Delos some time maybe, for a more equal comparison.

Best,


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Sarkikos
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Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: ibase]
      #6321914 - 01/19/14 10:33 AM

Quote:

Here's the other side of the coin - just like another forum member who recently posted here, Delos was better at beaning/blacking out control than Pentax XW.




I know there has been some controversy about this. Some observers say the exact opposite about Delos vs XW. Some say Delos control beaning/blackout better, others say the XW do.

Well, I have a Delos 4.5 and I can tell you that it has terrible beaning/blackout control - to my eye - compared to the performance of XW's. My Delos 6 was the same way. I just now put the Delos 4.5 up to my eye and could very easily shift the exit pupil out of the sweet spot. If I move my eye just a touch up, down, left or right, I see beaning and blackouts. I had an Orion Epic ED-2 22mm - eyepieces supposedly prone to beaning/blacouts - and it did not have more beaning/blackouts than the Delos.

Quote:

That's why mentioned earlier in the thread being quite happy trading the Pentax XW previously owned to get the Delos, which to my eye is less prone to beaning or blackouts (comparison with eyecups fully retracted).




This has not been my experience at all. I certainly did not sell my XW's because of beaning/blackouts. I was very satisfied with how the XW's control those problems. I sold my XW's for two reasons: (1) redundancy with the Leica ASPH and other eyepieces; (2) dislike of switching among a series of eyepieces when viewing objects.

Quote:

With the Pentax XW, just a slight off-than-optimal eye position would trigger the bean right away, whereas with the Delos, the leeway is wider, thus resulting in a less constrained head/eye position that's more forgiving of lateral movements, and ultimately more comfortable to use.




This is the exact opposite of my experience. Switch "XW" with "Delos" and you will have my experience.

Quote:

Another factor to consider is that if one has been using the Pentax XW for some time already, then tests a new Delos, more likely than not the Pentax XW will be judged better for eye-placement; give the Delos some time maybe, for a more equal comparison.




Yes, I think much of this difference in experience might boil down to ... a difference in experience. We are discussing phenomena, not facts.

But I do recall taking each XW out of the box, putting it up to my eye - and later using it in the field - and not having any problem at all with beaning/blackouts. Maybe other eyepieces I had used previously had somehow preconditioned me to an easy transition to the XW's. On the other hand, maybe my previous experience had not prepared me for the Delos.

In any case, I cannot honestly say that - to my eye - the Delos is very forgiving of eye position. I just don't see it. I was the same way about the Radians. I think it's a TeleVue thing. I tell you that is why they have put so much effort into designing their eyeguards and pupil guides - because of problems their customers have had with eye positioning. Seems obvious to me. They need to compensate for the eye positioning problems. Though I've never had a problem with the TV Plossls. A different animal entirely.

But then again, it could be a case of what I am - or am not - accustomed to. And of course the same could be true of observers who have had the opposite experience with Delos vs XW's.

Mike


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ibase
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Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6321960 - 01/19/14 10:58 AM

Quote:

I know there has been some controversy about this. Some observers say the exact opposite about Delos vs XW. Some say Delos control beaning/blackout better, others say the XW do.




Exactly; at least the viewers know there are two sides of the coin on this matter, and that we agree to disagree.

Best,


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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
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Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6321989 - 01/19/14 11:16 AM

Mike,
Said issues are usually the result of:
--exit pupil. Small exit pupils on long eye relief eyepieces often combine to yield difficulties in head positioning. This was probably the issue with the Radians.
--inability to hold the head steady. This varies a lot from individual to individual. People who stand (big dob users or SCT users with tripods all the way up) often have more problems with blackouts than people who sit.
Even despite that, it also varies from person to person. I had a 22T4 Nagler, an eyepiece a lot of people had problems with, but I could use it with the eyecup all the way down and never experience blackouts. Part of that was the larger exit pupil in the scope (~4mm) and part of that was that I was a lot younger and steadier then.
--Actual eye relief with the eyecup in place. It's been my experience that the XWs eyecup, even in minimum position, is taller than the eyecup on the Delos in minimum position. Either way, though, once the eyecup is adjusted to the right height, neither the XW nor the Delos should be hard to use or suffer from blackouts. Unlike other long eye relief eyepieces where the eyecup simply can't be raised high enough, on both XWs and Delos EPs, the eyecup CAN be raised high enough for even the perople who like to nestle their eyes into the eyecups.

Other than that, neither the Delos nor the XW suffers from spherical aberration of the exit pupil, so neither should experience "kidney beaning".

It's interesting that not every observer finds long eye relief to be a wonderful thing. Over the years, I've found my optimum is about 12mm of eye relief--longer becomes hard to use and/or shield the eye from peripheral light; shorter yields too much eyelash oil on the lens and too easy fogging in colder weather.

What I'm finding recently is that different eyepieces with highly concave eye lenses reflect peripheral light right into your eye. These eyepieces have to be used with a hood or by cupping the hands around the eyepiece. Yet, strangely to me, many observers don't notice this at all.

Optical quality is there. Now let's see some improvements in ergonomics of use.


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BillP
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Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: Starman1]
      #6322239 - 01/19/14 01:46 PM

I would add to your list:

- physiological differences in each observers eyes may help or hinder the situation

- how close the exit pupil of the telescope-eyepiece combination is to the dilation of the observer's pupil (when both are close to same then smallest head movement causes issue).

- actual specifics of the exit pupil design of the eyepiece. e.g., the design can place the exit pupil formation at specific places within the eye - Link .


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Sarkikos
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Re: Eyepiece Recommendations for 90mm Refractor new [Re: Starman1]
      #6322344 - 01/19/14 02:34 PM

Quote:

Optical quality is there. Now let's see some improvements in ergonomics of use.




As well as ergonomics of design.

Mike


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