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Equipment Discussions >> Reflectors

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KWB
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 09/30/06

Loc: Westminster,Co Elev.5400 feet
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: Mike B]
      #6343664 - 01/29/14 04:59 PM

Not to go any further off/topic but a pyro is really nothing more than a temperture sensor for monitoring turbocharger temperatures. When the operating temperature rises to near max,take your foot out of the throttle,or drop a gear,or both.

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StarJuice
member


Reged: 01/01/13

Loc: Arizona
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: Jason_R]
      #6344487 - 01/30/14 02:42 AM

Sorry Jason R, I think Iím partially to blame for the whole car thing . So Iíll make up for it by contributing to your original question...

I think itís fair to say that every telescope comes with some compromises, premium or not. Itís up to you to know what you value most, and to seek the product that delivers that best, within your budget. Likewise itís up to you understand which compromises youíre not willing to deal with. Hate ladders? Hate fighting your mount? Hate waiting for cool down? Etc. My personal list of requirements tends to be long, and because of that, it tends to guide me right into my choice. For me convenience and comfort are a big deal, but at the top of my list, regardless of scope size, itís the quality of the view. Sharp, high contrast detail across a huge AFOV creates that wow factor for me. I love it when the telescope disappears and I feel like Iím half way between Earth and the object Iím looking at. Yeah, thatís what Iím here for !!!

When I first started out (not too long ago), I purchased a mass-produced dob, believing that the difference in optical quality would be insignificant. Unfortunately, I didnít find that to be the case. I must be one of the unlucky ones??? After testing the optics, the manufacturer offered to replace them. When I failed to get any commitment that the replacement optics would be ďdiffraction limitedĒ, I decided to opt for a refund. I then made it a point to go to every star party (public & private) and to look through every telescope that I could, to get a good feel for the equipment we have available to us. Perhaps 50 to 60 telescopes total, to date. In doing so, I have found that itís generally trueÖ you get what you pay for in this industry. I say that with some caution, because itís not always the case, and it doesnít attempt to judge value, but it is definitely the trend. To date, I havenít looked through a mass-produced dob, and been too impressed (I know there are folks on CN who will disagree, but these are my honest experiences). IMO, some are what I would consider good to average, and others quite poor. Sure there are a number of factors that could be at play, but Iím just sayingÖ I havenít been impressed yet. But I have looked through some premium equipment, and had my socks blown off. Iím not talking light grasp here, Iím talking quality. Thatís what has lead me, personally, down the premium path.


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planet earth
Carpal Tunnel
****

Reged: 09/07/10

Loc: Ontario Canada
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6344519 - 01/30/14 03:44 AM

Quote:

But I can't promise you that they will all be that good.




That's the clincher.
You got lucky.
Sam


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: StarJuice]
      #6344666 - 01/30/14 08:25 AM Attachment (15 downloads)

Quote:

I havenít been impressed yet. But I have looked through some premium equipment, and had my socks blown off. Iím not talking light grasp here, Iím talking quality. Thatís what has lead me, personally, down the premium path.




In my experience, proper preparation and attention to detail is one of the most important aspects of getting the good views at higher magnifications. However, the biggest issue is not the quality of the optics but the quality of the seeing. Last night was a good example, I had a feeling the seeing was going to be pretty good so I had the choice between the generic 10 inch F/5 GSO Dob and Starsplitter with the 13.1 inch F/5.5 Robert Royce mirror.

I chose the 10 inch F/5 and I was rewarded with some exceptional views before the clouds rolled in. The seeing was definitely sub-arcsecond, the 1.0 arc-second 52 Orionis was an easy split, and Jupiter was at it's best, contrasty, detailed self.. The scope did have some help, I made sure the collimation was spot on, I made sure the mirror and scope had cooled and I did have a tracking platform so that it did not disturb the thermal equilibrium of the scope by having to touch the metal tube in order to track. Gloves work too but the tracking platform is a nice touch.

To paraphrase what Uncle Rod wrote: "When it comes to planetary observation, seeing is not the most important thing, it's the only thing."

Jon


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schang
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/24/13

Loc: columbia, sc
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6344681 - 01/30/14 08:35 AM

+1...seeing and experience.

My son is into organic things, and my wife was hyped into thinking that organic egg tasted better. So she got one carton of the organic egg back home one day. So I did a simple test, cooked two eggs side by side in the same pan, and asked her which one tasted better. Guess what? She picked the run-of-the mill non-organic egg as the better tasted egg. Go figure...


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rockethead26
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/21/09

Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: schang]
      #6344817 - 01/30/14 10:03 AM

Quote:

+1...seeing and experience.

My son is into organic things, and my wife was hyped into thinking that organic egg tasted better. So she got one carton of the organic egg back home one day. So I did a simple test, cooked two eggs side by side in the same pan, and asked her which one tasted better. Guess what? She picked the run-of-the mill non-organic egg as the better tasted egg. Go figure...




That's kinda funny.

A lot of people have the mistaken idea that organic produce, meats, dairy and grains should taste better. What I've found is that the meat is almost always better, while the rest may or may not necessarily taste better, but rarely, taste worse.

However, that's not the primary reason for supporting organic producers. It because they use no pesticides and they do not infuse their farm animals with antibiotics and steroids all of which find their way into the human body causing untold illnesses. That's enough for me. Any taste benefits are a bonus.


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George Methvin
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/30/06

Loc: Central Texas
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: rockethead26]
      #6344821 - 01/30/14 10:08 AM

LOL lets get back to talking about cars.....sorry I mean scopes what were we taking about......Premium dobs only on CN forums can we go from premium dob to car to eggs and meat.

Edited by George Methvin (01/30/14 10:10 AM)


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schang
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/24/13

Loc: columbia, sc
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: George Methvin]
      #6344864 - 01/30/14 10:41 AM

These topics are "sort" of related . Here, we are dealing with basic human's five senses, which are almost always subjective in nature, and are impacted by our mind and environment. A testing equipment is not subjective,and if used properly, will provide a better gauge than our senses.

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George Methvin
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/30/06

Loc: Central Texas
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: schang]
      #6344874 - 01/30/14 10:48 AM

LOL Shien you need to be a car sell man or go into politics, good answer. You don,t work for the white house do you......

Edited by George Methvin (01/30/14 10:48 AM)


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rockethead26
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/21/09

Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: George Methvin]
      #6344908 - 01/30/14 11:09 AM

Quote:

LOL lets get back to talking about cars.....sorry I mean scopes what were we taking about......Premium dobs only on CN forums can we go from premium dob to car to eggs and meat.




Yeah, funny how that happens. At least the top line of my signature was on topic

As far as premium dobs, the tighter tolerances and better overall design and build quality make the premium scope structures not only function better, but last longer as well. The mirror can be decided on as a separate item for the better dob makers.


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: StarJuice]
      #6345126 - 01/30/14 01:12 PM

Quote:

I think itís fair to say that every telescope comes with some compromises, premium or not. Itís up to you to know what you value most, and to seek the product that delivers that best, within your budget. Likewise itís up to you understand which compromises youíre not willing to deal with.




A very astute & well-worded piece of advice...


Quote:

I then made it a point to go to every star party (public & private) and to look through every telescope that I could, to get a good feel for the equipment we have available to us. Perhaps 50 to 60 telescopes total, to date.



... and there was its actual implementation!

Unfortunately, without having done the latter (a.k.a. "research", or "homework"), the former is well-nigh impossible to accomplish effectively- especially by someone relatively new/inexperienced to the "hobby". Hence, the iterative process of buying + selling scopes, looking for the "right one" suited to each individual, as is so typical of we enthusiasts.

But hey- i s'pose it's all good for the economy!


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OwlsNSpace
member


Reged: 01/29/14

Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia, USA
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6345717 - 01/30/14 06:10 PM

I'm getting rid of my Mazdaspeed 3 partly because I bought a 12-inch dobsonian scope. The replacement will be a full-size truck.

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TCW
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/05/13

Loc: The North 40
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6345878 - 01/30/14 07:38 PM

Small cars are good until you get rear ended at 50mph. I know!

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okieav8rAdministrator
I'd rather be flying!
*****

Reged: 03/01/09

Loc: Oklahoma!
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: TCW]
      #6345935 - 01/30/14 08:16 PM

Folks, we're getting way off topic with the automotive discussion. Lets get back onto the original topic, please.

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Pinbout
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: nj
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: okieav8r]
      #6345953 - 01/30/14 08:27 PM

Right. Premium. Dobs...norman fullum...premium?

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TCW
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/05/13

Loc: The North 40
Re: Premium Dob? [Re: okieav8r]
      #6346089 - 01/30/14 09:38 PM

What ever you say pilgrim.

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davidpitre
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 05/10/05

Loc: Central Texas
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: StarJuice]
      #6346232 - 01/30/14 10:48 PM

Quote:

I have found that itís generally trueÖ you get what you pay for in this industry. I say that with some caution, because itís not always the case, and it doesnít attempt to judge value, but it is definitely the trend. To date, I havenít looked through a mass-produced dob, and been too impressed (I know there are folks on CN who will disagree, but these are my honest experiences).



Yes my experience has been a bit different. Though I own several very good custom mirrors, I have used quite a number of custom mirror telescopes that were mediocre. I was sold one genuinely bad 18" from a well know maker. Consistency really does vary from mirror maker to mirror maker. There are a number that are dependably good, and some that are generally good, some consistently mediocre. In my experience (scopes bought and borrowed) the more recent GSO and Synta mirrors and generally good . I have bought several chinese 8" and 10" dobs to donate to charity auctions over the past few years, and have been impressed with each mirror. The last 8" was a gem.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: OwlsNSpace]
      #6346244 - 01/30/14 10:53 PM

Quote:

I'm getting rid of my Mazdaspeed 3 partly because I bought a 12-inch dobsonian scope. The replacement will be a full-size truck.




Shneor Sherman had a Mazda 323 that he used to haul his 22 inch. My 16 inch fits in our '99 Honda Accord though it's a tight fit..

In general "premium" Dobsonians are trusses and they can be transported in a smaller car than a similar tube scope. My 12.5 inch has a foot print that 19" x 20" and nested is about 28". The entire scope takes up less space than the base of a 12 inch Apertura or Orion Dob..

For me, that's one of the big advantages of "premium" Dobsonians.

Jon

(12.5 inch F/4.06 in a Ford Escort Station Wagon)



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Thomas Karpf
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 02/09/09

Loc: Newington, CT
Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: davidpitre]
      #6348626 - 02/01/14 08:04 AM

Quote:


Yes my experience has been a bit different. Though I own several very good custom mirrors, I have used quite a number of custom mirror telescopes that were mediocre. I was sold one genuinely bad 18" from a well know maker. Consistency really does vary from mirror maker to mirror maker. There are a number that are dependably good, and some that are generally good, some consistently mediocre.




Yup. Which is why, when I upgrade to a premium dob, I am going with a mirror manufacturer for whom I've seen NO negative reviews. That way, I'll just get a mirror that WORKS.


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Bob S.
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/14/05

Re: Premium Dob? new [Re: Thomas Karpf]
      #6348692 - 02/01/14 09:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Yes my experience has been a bit different. Though I own several very good custom mirrors, I have used quite a number of custom mirror telescopes that were mediocre. I was sold one genuinely bad 18" from a well know maker. Consistency really does vary from mirror maker to mirror maker. There are a number that are dependably good, and some that are generally good, some consistently mediocre.




Yup. Which is why, when I upgrade to a premium dob, I am going with a mirror manufacturer for whom I've seen NO negative reviews. That way, I'll just get a mirror that WORKS.




Tom, In theory, I fully agree with your inclination to go with an optician that has no negative reviews. However, I do not know of any single optician that enjoys that reputation. None! The reason I say this is that there are many variables that are sometimes out of the control of the optician. For example, if a mirror blank has strain in it that does not reveal itself in a careful evaluation, then the mirror has the possibility of changing figure. If an optician's mirror is coated improperly, again, you have the chance of some deviation from what the optician was intending.

I think the bottom line is that we need to consider the totality of an optician's work to get a sense of who is capable of providing us with the highest chance of getting the "premium" performance we are looking for and paying for. In my personal opinion, I think there are likely no more than about 5 professional opticians (in the USA) making parabolic mirrors for the amateur community that can deliver the goods time after time. This rough guesstimate is based on closely following the Newtonian threads for the past 12 years and having tried/owned hundreds of Newtonian telescopes. I think it has taken both experiences and hearsay to have formulated my opinions. As always, other peoples experiences may not correlate well with mine possibly because of where they observe and what structures the mirrors go into? That is the nature of the beast and why there remains some "crapshoot" aspects to the endeavor of obtaining a premium dob. Bob


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