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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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David PavlichAdministrator
Transmographied
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Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6278175 - 12/28/13 10:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

For outreach events and star parties (100% visual), my $450 (used price) CG5-GT can put any object in the FOV on either side of the meridian all night long with a simple 2/4 star alignment. No super duper encoders needed. Jeff's observation is essentially a good one. For visual work for 99% of us, good ole' archaic goto mounts work very well, indeed.



I personally do not care about outreach events and star parties, but if I did I certainty would not be looking for top-end equipment as AP or 10M.

Quote:

No, you can't release the clutches and have the mount find itself after, but why would you want to hand slew a GOTO MOUNT? At any rate, this conversation is geared toward imaging since there is no need to be concerned about PE when viewing M42 through a 27 Panoptic.




Who needs GOTO? Not me. Fortunately I have both arms and hands perfect functional, and I find more convenient the way my DM6 tells me where to move the scope by hand. Only thing missing there is tracking, including planet, comet and satellite tracking. For imaging, where we point at very few (if more than one) targets per night, GOTO is even less necessary. GOTO is necessary only for remote operation, which I do not do nor will ever do.
I never liked the feeling of the mount moving and me checking in the dark if I forgot something that will cause an accident. Much more comfortable to move it manually. Not to mention I quite enjoy the feeling of moving a heavy scope perfectly balanced with the tip of my fingers. If on top of that the mount tells where I am, and the direction to move to get my target, that is my game.

Pedro




Good for you and I'm glad you enjoy moving your scope around by hand. I was just responding to a claim that encoders are very important for visual use, that's all. I still say that for visual use, encoders, as stated prior, are a waste of astrodollars.

David


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6278270 - 12/28/13 11:44 PM

Quote:

I was just responding to a claim that encoders are very important for visual use, that's all. I still say that for visual use, encoders, as stated prior, are a waste of astrodollars.

David




And you are certainly welcome to spend your astrodollars as you wish, but I will take any mount (push-to or goto) with on-axis encoders (low resolution, high resolution, absolute or otherwise) for visual observing over one without any day of the week, particularly when it comes to use in light-polluted skies.


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6278415 - 12/29/13 02:16 AM

Quote:


Peter, if no Dec backlash is one of your priorities, AP talks about encoders and PE and Dec backlash on their AP1100 website page video (minute 11:40).
Those AP mounts are mechanical works of art, very nice to watch the full video, but the part at 11:40 is the best advertisement on the 1000HPS. I saw that video on the period I was making my decision (Mach1 or AP1100 or 1000HPS, one of the three was for sure), and that video part helped a little towards the 1000HPS. In your case, it may push you to add encoders to your 1100.

Pedro




Pedro,

Do you have a link to the video? I have browsed through their entire site in search for it...

/per


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6278567 - 12/29/13 06:07 AM

Quote:

Pedro,

Do you have a link to the video? I have browsed through their entire site in search for it...

/per




www.astro-physics.com
then click on "Products" on the left,
then click on "1100 GTO..." under "German Equatorial Mounts",
then scroll a bit down and the video is there.

But you can use the direct link to youtube here (minute 11:40):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBMBqoh9WI4

And in fact there is another video on 1100 GTO and encoders, also from NEAF 2013, where AP also talks about PE and Dec Backlash, here (minute 0:50):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16bVLhOrBQI

In both videos AP says the same: encoders virtually eliminate PE and Backlash. Not that it would not be obvious, but I guess that if it is AP saying so, it gets more credit.

Edited by pbsastro (12/29/13 06:14 AM)


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Tonk
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 08/19/04

Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6278912 - 12/29/13 11:01 AM

The OP asks

Quote:

I'm considering purchasing this mount. At $20K a pop I'd like to know more about it than the manufacturer's fluff. Does anyone know anything about this mount? Do you own one? How do you like it?




So after 6 pages we end up learning all about AP stuff instead


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Tonk]
      #6279047 - 12/29/13 12:10 PM

Quote:


So after 6 pages we end up learning all about AP stuff instead




Haha! Yes, it is amazing how heated this can get!

There is a reasonably large user base with very satisfied customers and more information can be found at http://www.10micron.com/

I bought a GM2000HPS in February of 2012 and a GM1000HPS in March of 2013.

Good stuff.

/per


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Tonk]
      #6279254 - 12/29/13 02:09 PM

Quote:

So after 6 pages we end up learning all about AP stuff instead



Thatīs because I'm an AP fanboy


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6279369 - 12/29/13 03:12 PM

Haha! Fanboy... Great term!

I do believe that AP is at the top of the line of pure mechanics, no doubt. I still think they have a bit of a journey in terms of adaption to encoder technology. And they should lose the first gear stage in favor of a belt

/per


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David PavlichAdministrator
Transmographied
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Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6280189 - 12/29/13 11:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I was just responding to a claim that encoders are very important for visual use, that's all. I still say that for visual use, encoders, as stated prior, are a waste of astrodollars.

David




And you are certainly welcome to spend your astrodollars as you wish, but I will take any mount (push-to or goto) with on-axis encoders (low resolution, high resolution, absolute or otherwise) for visual observing over one without any day of the week, particularly when it comes to use in light-polluted skies.




Like I said, Ed...my used CG5 cost me $475 and once aligned, it finds objects all night long. Of course, if I mess up and loosen a clutch, then I have to do another alignment and that takes about, oh, 10 minutes. Not a big deal for me. Horses for courses.

Now, for imaging, I'm all in with the encoders.

David


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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6280402 - 12/30/13 02:40 AM

Quote:

Haha! Fanboy... Great term!

I do believe that AP is at the top of the line of pure mechanics, no doubt. I still think they have a bit of a journey in terms of adaption to encoder technology. And they should lose the first gear stage in favor of a belt

/per




Just having the software to control the encoders would be nice. AKA APCC. Until apcc is released the AP encoders are nothing more than dumb encoders like a TDM. All they do is reduce PE and backlash without the closed loop software. An AP mount with encoders ,as it stands right now, can't even track a comet.

Even though APCC is in public beta, it could still take a few years until release if we take precidence into account with the apcc software developers previous software development and updates. (The mythical pempro 3) Also new firmware chips need to be installed for APCC. Currently you will need a U chip. Not free for certain mounts. Talking about technology..... What happened to software firmware updates?


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Tonk
Postmaster
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Reged: 08/19/04

Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6280467 - 12/30/13 04:44 AM

Quote:

Until apcc is released the AP encoders are nothing more than dumb encoders like a TDM. All they do is reduce PE and backlash without the closed loop software. An AP mount with encoders ,as it stands right now, can't even track a comet.




Which is the very nice thing with 10 Micron stuff - its all there, integral with the mount, all inclusive. Tracks satellites, comets, asteroids with precision out of the box without the need for external computer hook ups (it has its own embedded Linux computer, but you do have to preload the ephermeris data for non standard objects), or even waiting for someone to finish writing/debugging the software.

As the OP asks "Do you own one? How do you like it?" - well as I own the same mount controller as the GM2000HPS I can say yes I like it very very much. It does exactly what it says on the tin. Its very easy to use.

The hand controller is great to use even with gloves on. The whole controler thing is intuitive to learn and navigate - especially easy if you are upgrading from a Losmandy Gemini controller. Model building is smooth and efficient and the polar alignment procedures are extremely easy and fast to execute. The results are very very accurate.

Coupled with the mount mechanics and abs encoders (a 1000HPS in my case) the results have been stunning (for me at least I'm easily impressed). I haven't run unguided exposures beyond 10 minutes yet (more to do with sky brightness - I will go longer when I start narrow band imaging), but since being up and running in early August I've not yet dropped a subframe due to tracking issues and thats 400+ subframes so far.

Pointing accuracy righ now for me is better than 20 arc seconds all sky and polar alignment is within 15 arc seconds - its currently on a remote pier under an all-weather tarp, but I am recovering it today as the site/services will be closed for me until March 1st (its a small very pleasant holiday trailer park - it closes for the min of 7 weeks to avoid UK second home taxes). So over the next 2 months I'll be trying it out "mobile" on a tripod (subject to British weather!!! - which usually means 2/3 opportunities max )


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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Tonk]
      #6281371 - 12/30/13 03:14 PM

Going off topic:
Ya, so pretty much everyone who bought AP encoders paid $7000 for beta software development. And whats messed up is some people who spent the 7 grand were refused participation in the beta program because they need to spend more money for 3rd party software, such as tpoint, to make APCC Pro workable. Oh, and another $70-$90 for the "U" chip firmware. U have to pay more $ for what really is a BIOS update. They change the ASCOM driver, new chip needed as well. Sheeshee

Oh, 10micron mounts also support multiple communication protocols so you can use a lx200 driver or even the AP GTO protocol.


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Carrera991
member


Reged: 10/27/12

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS *DELETED* new [Re: Skunky]
      #6282129 - 12/30/13 08:59 PM

Post deleted by Dave M

Edited by Dave M (02/07/14 09:14 AM)


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Ray Gralak
Vendor (PEMPro)


Reged: 04/19/08

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Carrera991]
      #6357434 - 02/05/14 11:04 AM


The PEMPro V3 announcement was triggered because I had thought AP was going to launch APCC at AIC that year. The developer (me) had thought I would be freed up to finish and start beta testing on PEMPro V3. In beta testing APCC however there were some firmware issues found and they needed to be fixed. I don't do the firmware so I had no control over its timing but it set into motion a long series of firmware updates and changes to APCC that each took a long time to retest everything. The weather didn't always cooperate and sometimes we heard little feedback from beta testers.

Anyway, PEMPro V3 has been ready for beta testing for a long time but I don't have the bandwidth to handle TWO beta testing programs(APCC and PEMPro), my full-time job as a software engineer and my family life.

So, yes, it's unfortunate that I pulled the trigger on the PEMPro V3 announcement too early. I should have waited but AIC only happened once a year and that was my mistake. Once APCC is launched and support for it dies down the PEMPro V3 beta program will start.

Thanks,

-Ray

Edited by Dave M (02/08/14 10:46 PM)


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Ray Gralak
Vendor (PEMPro)


Reged: 04/19/08

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Ray Gralak]
      #6357463 - 02/05/14 11:17 AM



And by the way, I'm also the author of PulseGuide for Astro-Physics mounts and the Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM driver, the latter of which I have been continually updating to work with all versions of AP mount's firmware and also enhancements that work only with APCC. So you can include those as part of my track record of being able to deliver good, stable, working software for Astro-Physics mounts.

-Ray

Edited by Dave M (02/08/14 10:41 PM)


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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Ray Gralak]
      #6357847 - 02/05/14 02:40 PM



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korborh
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 01/29/11

Loc: Arizona
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6357983 - 02/05/14 03:58 PM

Quote:

We haven't even started to get into how AP charges for firmware updates.. FIRMWARE UPDATES!!




I hear you....having to order a new chip for firmware update everytime is costly and very inefficient. AP really needs to make firmware update available for download.


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Hilmi
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 03/07/10

Loc: Muscat, Sultanate of Oman
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: korborh]
      #6358070 - 02/05/14 04:54 PM

I'm as peeved off about the delay in PEMPro 3 just like the guy next door, but I feel we need to give Ray a break. Only thing he is guilty off is late delivery. His software is otherwise very good. Give credit where it is due. While I have criticized him for late delivery of the above mentioned software, I feel some of the comments against him are borderline disrespectful in tone. Constructive criticism is fine, but when the tone of the criticism goes so far as to belittle all the work that he has done, that is just plain rude.

Software delivery was late, fair enough. Unreliable? Don't agree, just not punctual. As an example, PEMPro is one of the very few programs I have ever used that NEVER crashed on me. He produces top quality code. Maybe that is why it takes so long.


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Ray Gralak
Vendor (PEMPro)


Reged: 04/19/08

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6358085 - 02/05/14 05:02 PM

Quote:


but they sure will sell you encoders that are bunk without the software.



You're obviously not an engineer, software or otherwise, or even someone has has read up on what the AP encoders are used for... otherwise you would have known better than to write something so wrong.

Encoders remove instantaneous tracking anomalies caused by periodic error, imperfections in each tooth of the worm wheel as well as slow drift caused by any slight eccentricity in the worm wheel. The encoders also are used to remove the effects of backlash and provide for a way to home the mount.

If you want to track an object unguided, accounting for refraction and all other mount effects, I wrote software to do that over 10 years ago. In fact it's included with every AP mount. It's called Pulseguide. You train on an object for a few minutes then you can do long unguided exposures. It works best WITH encoders!

So yes, grandma, no excuses!

-Ray


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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS [Re: Ray Gralak]
      #6362378 - 02/07/14 04:41 PM

lol!

stepped around that faster than an encoder making corrections..

APCC???


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