Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page


Observing >> Solar System Observing

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (show all)
Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Enke Minima on Saturn new [Re: BillP]
      #6598933 - 06/24/14 09:47 AM

Quote:

HST and Cassini data all show a minimum in the central portion of the A-Ring compared to it's outer most edges. No illusion.




That's cool. Thanks. I never gave it much thought until you're report. There have been hints of it being an illusion, or possibly one, but it's just there when seeing permits. And seeing almost always permits during our tropical dry season. Knowing (or believing) it's an actual feature just gives more depth to observing Saturn. I could stare at it's rings for hours...and have.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BillP
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 11/26/06

Loc: Vienna, VA
Re: Enke Minima on Saturn new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6599251 - 06/24/14 12:36 PM

FWIW, here's a full res raw image from Cassini of the A-Ring. Fairly easy to see visually that the portion to the outside and just inside Enke is lighter and brighter than the center. Same also holds true for region of A-ring just outside the Cassini. So the ring's center is bounded by brighter edges. I do think that the human perception system naturally accentuates this, resulting in the minimum in the center appearing darker than it actually is, but our perception system does this for everything we observe!

I usually don't get that wrapped up in legalism and what is or is not or partially or in whole an illusion. If I was doing scientific research on the target, then it would be important. But since I am not, it is not important and what becomes important is *observational* features and the act of observing. As you said, easy to stare at Saturn and the rings all night...me too! It is a beautiful target and rewarding to observe various features, whether 100% real or even less so.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Enke Minima on Saturn [Re: BillP]
      #6600167 - 06/24/14 09:12 PM

Yea, no doubt human perception does funny things, like making the first ring of a bright star look as bright as the Airy disc, and they play tricks on us. The accentuated brightness of the A ring's edges might be some of that trickery. But it's trickery on what looks like an actual observable feature and not purely an illusion - which is what I find fascinating.

Maybe everything we observe either is part illusion and part logarithmic trickery, but we do see things in many ways as they are. Or we at least know the feature is present. Well, except at times when lunar craters look like domes. It would seem odd to attribute everything we observe to illusion, to some contrived image formed in our brain, as it would strike at the core of our ability to interpret the world around us.

Yea, the beauty of the heavens is remarkable. More folks should be aware of the magical universe circling overhead beyond the everyday grind of busy streets and televised news.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BillP
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 11/26/06

Loc: Vienna, VA
Re: Enke Minima on Saturn new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6601135 - 06/25/14 12:02 PM

Quote:

Maybe everything we observe either is part illusion and part logarithmic trickery, but we do see things in many ways as they are. Or we at least know the feature is present. Well, except at times when lunar craters look like domes. It would seem odd to attribute everything we observe to illusion, to some contrived image formed in our brain, as it would strike at the core of our ability to interpret the world around us.




Certainly would be odd...but indeed it may be true. Certainly challenges many things to ponder that it may be that way. One could easily argue that we see nothing like it is simply because we cannot see so much of the spectrum. So right off the bat the limited range of the human-visual spectrum makes us see things not as they are. And when you add the fact that our eyes have only 3 color receptors whereas other animals have 12 receptors (Mantis Shrimp) so by their standard we are color blind!

Bottom line is, IMO, that we are only seeing a partial reality. We can't see all the spectrum from an object, nor all the colors, shapes/tones/hues are all altered to some degree by our perception, and our attention and/or focus even eliminates some objects from the view. I think that in the end, reality is beyond our ability to see, and can only at best be imperfectly imagined.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Enke Minima on Saturn new [Re: BillP]
      #6601757 - 06/25/14 06:52 PM

Well, I imperfectly imagined seeing Enke minimum. So did you, apparently, and you got me all excited about it. We saw it probably because it's there even if we don't observe xray spectrum or have shrimp eyes. Ya?

Besides, if one could observe the underlying reality, imagine how difficult it would be to convince others.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
azure1961p
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Enke Minima on Saturn new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6602004 - 06/25/14 09:59 PM

The last time Out I was getting flickers of it in 7-8 seeing. The A ring almost takes on a texture then the seeing fails and it smooths out again!

Einstein was particularly taken with the understanding that we never see anything as it really is.

Pete


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Enke Minima on Saturn new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6602422 - 06/26/14 06:25 AM

Quote:

Einstein was particularly taken with the understanding that we never see anything as it really is.

Pete




By referring to Einstein, are you implying, by appealing to his credibility, that Saturn "really" doesn't have rings? That Cassini division does not exist? Or that the Enke minimum is not "really" there?

"I think, therefore I am." Or maybe not, because we have no right to interpret what we see, think, or feel because it's all a construct of the mind and not at all real?

Yea, Enke minimum might not really appear as it really is, but it's there and we can observe it to be something. Otherwise why do we observe at all if we cannot trust what we observe, illusions included.

Sure, illusions are at play. But, not everything is an illusion nor should be written off as one. Especially when an actual anomaly, detected by high tech space toys, shows it to exist and we see it.

I believe Einstein was referring to the quantum if he made a statement like that.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BillP
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 11/26/06

Loc: Vienna, VA
Re: Enke Minima on Saturn new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6602961 - 06/26/14 02:17 PM

Quote:

By referring to Einstein, are you implying, by appealing to his credibility, that Saturn "really" doesn't have rings? That Cassini division does not exist? Or that the Enke minimum is not "really" there?




Interesting question. Is something a ring if it is not continguos? I mena let's be real (pardon the pun), the rings are just a bunch of individual things all orbiting the planet. They only look like a ring because we are too far away to see the spaces between the individual components. So we are assigning it an attribute of being a ring based on that illusion. Look at it this way, would you ever call rain falling from the sky a three dimentional space of water? But it's the same concept since it is just a collection of small individual items moving in unison.

And nope...the Cassini Division is not a gap at all. Look at this closeup of Cassini (from Cassini spacecraft). So all those darker rings between the bright A and B rings shows ARE the Cassini Division. So lots of junk in there ringing around


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Enke Minima on Saturn new [Re: BillP]
      #6603618 - 06/26/14 08:20 PM

Okay, you win. The gap in my argument appears very real. You can't argue with an illusionist, apparently.

In jest, of course...great topic, nice conversation. One I looked forward to each time logging on.

Cheers, Bill...until we cross paths again. Especially down here in the observing section where the rubber meets the road and some observations are simply amazing, real or imagined.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
azure1961p
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Enke Minima on Saturn new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6605179 - 06/27/14 09:33 PM

Wow actually I wasn't implying Einstein had anything to do with the A phenomenon!!!! I've been meaning to make a concerted effort on the A ring - Ive been so busy though - and the weather so choppy - and now I'm finally going on vacation - without the scope.

One good thing is my last pencil drawing if Saturn has been officially turned into a digital rendering now in color. I think once and for all I'm done with graphite - I know my paper (copier paper) makes it impossible to get a fine blend, but I've become more proficient with a touchscreen stylus and associated apps/programs that Im really sold on it for the purposes of astronomy. Not art-art but telescopic observation rendering - absolutely!

Anyway for now Im feeling the Enckes Minima has a foot in reality AND illusion.

Pete


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Schaden
sage


Reged: 06/30/08

Loc: Sonoran Desert
Re: Enke Minima on Saturn new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6606787 - 06/29/14 01:31 AM

Quote:

The rings, though, just wow...striking. Especially the Crepe ring. Well, and the various tones of the A and B ring, too...and Cassini and Enke gap. It's all good.




I've only seen Encke's Gap once, during an opposition at 360x.

Did you see it the night of that drawing ? Just checking because I don't see it. The gap I saw was as black as Cassini's but much thinner. And it was out on the very edge of the A Ring.

The night I saw Encke's Gap was also the night I got a good view of the minima. It was like the A Ring was split into two tones. Fatter around the ansae. The edge of the rings and planet were razor sharp, but the minima almost looked like someone painted it on with a brush. The B Ring was also split into two tones. Before this night, I had only noticed differences in tone between the A and B, a rather dramatic one, but I had never seen a separation of tones with the same ring. I observed for a few hours and it was observable the whole time. Once in a while, the only turbulence looked like a messed up vertical hold on a CRT TV, crawling very slowly across the image. The Encke Gap would momentarily blur like Cassini can wiggle on a below average night.

The next night, it was not as good. No Encke's at all. But I saw flashes of the Minima, but not unmistakable like before. Almost like I already knew exactly how it looked, and that allowed me to see it again for split seconds, when the atmosphere cooperated.

Haven't had a night like that on Saturn since.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
E_Look
Post Laureate


Reged: 03/06/08

Loc: near New York
Re: Enke Minima on Saturn new [Re: Schaden]
      #6606818 - 06/29/14 02:18 AM

You've reminded me of a night I had, just like that with Saturn too, back four years ago. Nights before and nights after, the seeing was unsteady, but THAT night, it was incredibly still, which permitted me to blow Saturn up to, really, 575x. That night I got to see Enceladus for the first time, and persistently so, even though at all powers it had to be by averted vision.

Now, in fact, I got to only glimpse Enceladus last night, despite nonideal transparency, much less than perfect seeing, again by averted vision, but ONLY at a high magnification, 460x. Of course, at this power, Saturn was soft and mushy, hard to focus, but I think given the bad observational conditions last night, it was the only way I could have seen it, even if only a few times for about a second each time. The transparency got progressively worse as the night wore on. In fact, it was due to increasing thickening of the haze, let alone the sheet of cloud that washed over the skies.

The tilt of the rings this season is great for seeing the Cassini division, but the Encke gap, Encke minima, there was no way given the viewing conditions.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Enke Minima on Saturn new [Re: Schaden]
      #6606967 - 06/29/14 08:00 AM

First, congratulations on sighting Enke. That's no easy feat, but it sounds like you had a great night. Sorry to hear not since has seeing been that good.

As for me, no. I have not yet seen Enke gap. (Thought I did once, still have my soiled shorts to prove it.) I've only observed the minimum, regularly in good tropical seeing.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (show all)


Extra information
0 registered and 3 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Rich (RLTYS), star drop, dr.who 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 1748

Jump to

CN Forums Home




Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics