Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums
Privacy Policy |
Please read our Terms
of Service | Signup and
Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu.... uh, User
Boywtoys
member
Reged: 11/08/05
Posts: 84
|
|
Hi, I'm trying to find some instructions on using a CCD to drift align. Having a hard time finding a site with good info so if you know of one could you please post a link. Thanks.
|
denodan
professor emeritus
Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 609
|
|
http://wcs.ruthner.at/index-en.htm
Go to the above Website this is the program you need and will help you align your scope. Have not tried it myself yet, but this uses any webcam, DSI,LPI etc to help with drift alignment.
|
tjensen
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/16/05
Posts: 1508
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
|
|
You can have a look at my website. Just click on my signature icon and then go to the "Techniques" section. I have a little blurb there on using a CCD camera to align and there is a URL for a more detailed site.
-------------------- 10"LX200GPS
Orion 80ED
pier mounted CGE
Canon XT (modified)
ToUcam Pro
|
Boywtoys
member
Reged: 11/08/05
Posts: 84
|
|
Thanks.
Tim, that's a very helpful website you have.
|
Paul Rix
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 3184
Loc: Zanesville, Ohio,USA
|
|
Denodan, I tried out that program the other night for the first time. I like it a lot and I will be buying it. Much quicker than doing the drift alignment by feel each time. Thanks for posing the link.
-------------------- Climbing the Learning Curve
Meade 10" LX200 Classic: WO 66SD.
Philips SPC900NC, DMK21AU04.AS, Meade DSI Pro and DSI Pro II.
|
FuriousGeorge
super member
Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 188
Loc: Louisville, KY
|
|
You guys should try this out too. Its cheaper and is very simple to use.
http://www.andysshotglass.com/StarTarg.html
|
Greg K.
   
Reged: 12/11/03
Posts: 10950
Loc: Clifton Park, NY
|
|
K3CCDTools (even the free version) has drift explorer which will also plot out drift over time, making it very easy to drift align. It's also, well, free.
WCS looks pretty good, I'm going to check it out.
-------------------- Astro-Tech AT111EDT f/7 - Celestron CGEM (new rig!)
NexStar 11 GPS
Orion SkyView Pro 8EQ (w/ Autostar mod)
15x70 Celestron SkyMasters
Orion 90mm Mak
|
lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1650
Loc: Okanagan Valley
|
|
Greg, how do I say this? for most of us ( or at least me) I wouldn't be able to drift align with the information given in K3CCDTools. unless someone tells how to decipher what is being told to you. I would wonder how bright ( or mag) the star would have to be to be able to use a webcam with the wsc program? Hope someone with good weather uses and posts a review of that program.
Lawrie
-------------------- Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
|
Paul Rix
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 3184
Loc: Zanesville, Ohio,USA
|
|
I used a NexImage camera and had no problems. I just used stars I could see with the Mk1 eyeball. No different than picking stars for a manual alignment using a crosshair eyepiece. Where WCS really shines is that after an initial drift evaluation (lock onto a star and let it drift for a few minutes), the program draws two sets of lines, one set green and the other set red. You are prompted to position the star between one set of lines and adjust the mount to bring the star across the screen until it reaches the other set of vertical lines. If the ammount of correction required is greater than one screen width, the program tells you how many times you need to repeat the process (ie, you move the star from one side of the screen to the other by adjusting the mount, then using the hand controller, you slew the star back to the first set of lines and adjust the mount again to move the star back between the opposite set of lines and repeat the number of times prompted. Once done, you run another evaluation, which will require only slight adjustment of the mount/wedge. Doing this by feel can take a long time because you never know quite how much adjustment is needed. This program eliminates the guesswork and tells you in simple terms precisely how much correction is required. Next time I get clear skies, I will time how long it takes me to get an accurate drift alignment using this program (bearing in mind that I am a beginner at polar aligning the scope). I bought the program because very soon, once spring arrives, I will lose sight of Polaris from my observing location because of a large tree in the yard. I have marked the points on the ground where the tripod legs need to go to roughly point North. From there I can align accurately with this program and never need to see Polaris.
-------------------- Climbing the Learning Curve
Meade 10" LX200 Classic: WO 66SD.
Philips SPC900NC, DMK21AU04.AS, Meade DSI Pro and DSI Pro II.
Edited by Paul Rix (03/08/06 05:43 PM)
|
lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1650
Loc: Okanagan Valley
|
|
Thanks Paul, boy the program sounds like it could make a tedious job quite easy,you say that you don't need to do a rough polar align first for the program to work, ( though I would assume it would speed up the process.) Guess the only question left is how accurate it is.I wonder if it works on all the less expensive cameras (comparitivly I mean)DSI, Starshooter,toys that are affordable
Lawrie
-------------------- Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
|
Paul Rix
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 3184
Loc: Zanesville, Ohio,USA
|
|
Lawrie, I used a NexImage (unmodified). So anything similar would get the job done. The DSI may not work though with the program as it is not exactly a windows webcam device.
A rough polar align would of course help. I marked the ground indicating where the tripod feet should rest after a session where I managed a reasonable polar alignment. Every time I set up though, the alignment needs to be refined each time. The best advice I can give would be to try it for yourself (there is a 30 day trial period). I used it once and made my decision straight away.
-------------------- Climbing the Learning Curve
Meade 10" LX200 Classic: WO 66SD.
Philips SPC900NC, DMK21AU04.AS, Meade DSI Pro and DSI Pro II.
|
lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1650
Loc: Okanagan Valley
|
|
Thanks looks like a good program,just need to know the dec of the star you pick, and using these cameras you would be wise to pick the very bright ones. I'm amazed at what people can come up with, what brains.
Lawrie
-------------------- Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
|
wolfi3300
Vendor: WCS Software
Reged: 10/23/05
Posts: 18
Loc: Austria
|
|
Paul, I'm the author of WCS. Thank you for the registration of the program and for your nice feedback about it at cloudynights! I hope you are able to safe a lot of time, using WCS. Sorry for my poor english, it's not my first language...
If there's anyone who has questions regarding WCS, feel free to get in contact with me, or post it on this forum. I'll try to answer your questions as good as I can. But I think Paul described the program perfect! ... Also if there's an idea, how to make things better...
There will be a new version of WCS released within the next days. With it, it will be possible to calibrate the rotation of the cam at the scope.
Clear Skys and Happy Landings,
Wolfgang
http://wcs.ruthner.at/index-en.htm
|
Paul Rix
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 3184
Loc: Zanesville, Ohio,USA
|
|
Hi Wolfgang, thanks for writing the WCS program! I do have two questions. When you choose a star to the South you need to enter the Declination of the star (information I can get from the Starry Night program or the setting circles on the telescope). Do you need to enter the declination for the star you chose in the East when adjusting the angle of the wedge? Also, I noticed that the example figure of 15 degrees uses a comma as the decimal separator, will a '.' work as well?
Thanks again!
-------------------- Climbing the Learning Curve
Meade 10" LX200 Classic: WO 66SD.
Philips SPC900NC, DMK21AU04.AS, Meade DSI Pro and DSI Pro II.
|
wolfi3300
Vendor: WCS Software
Reged: 10/23/05
Posts: 18
Loc: Austria
|
|
Hi Paul, very good questions!
*) the Declination of the Star is only used for calculations using the North/South-Star (RA-alignment). It's not used for poleheight.
*) I tried what happens, if I use an "." and I found out, that it depends on the "XP-language settings". For your system (US-settings) you will have to use the "." instead of "," as decimal separator, otherwise the program calculates with a value of 150 degrees instead of 15.0. Very strange, seems to be a ".NET-Feature"!?  I've changed this value to be "15" by default, - without any points or commas in the new 1.31 release, which is available for download at http://wcs.ruthner.at/index-en.htm
Best Regards and Clear Skys, Wolfgang
-------------------- Software for fast Polar Alignment: http://wcs.ruthner.at/index-en.htm
WCS Support Forum: http://wcs.ruthner.at/forum
GSO Newton 8"
TS-MAK 150
TouCam
DSI Pro II
Canon Rebel Astro (removed IR-Filter)
|
Charlie Hein
Postmaster
   
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7433
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
|
|
Quote:
I wouldn't be able to drift align with the information given in K3CCDTools. unless someone tells how to decipher what is being told to you.
Lawrie, drift alignment really isn't anywhere near as hard as it sounds (although it does sound pretty daunting) - I avoided learning how to do it for way too long myself for that very reason.
Understanding what you're trying to do is key. Hopefully, I can explain it in a simple to understand way. In fact, I may over simplify for you just because I don't have any idea what your experience level may be. Because of this, please don't think I'm talking down to you if my explanations seem too simplistic. I just want to make sure that I present this in an easy to understand way. On the other hand, please feel free to point out any portion of the following that you don't pick up on, and I will do my very best to clarify it for you.
That said, let's get started. I'm not sure what kind of mount that you have, but I'm going to step out and make a guess that you do not have a fork mount on an equatorial wedge, but rather you have a GEM (like a CG5, SkyViewPro, LXD-55 or 75, or a similar mount). If this isn't the case then let me know, although it really does not change things too much.
It's important to note that while it's not exactly essential to do a rough polar alignment on your mount, it will save you a *lot* of time in the process, because the closer you are to being right on, the less you have to move your mount around to get it right on. Just guessing about where North is and how high Polaris is may put you farther out of alignment than the mechanics of your mount can compensate for, which would force you to physically move the mount in order to get it "in the zone".
This would be very painful to discover 15 minutes or even longer into the process, so I would *strongly* recommend that you at least level your mount and sight Polaris through the polar scope (or the hole where one would go) before getting started. It will save you a *lot* of time from here on out!
If you can't see Polaris, then point the mount due North, and set your latitude as closely as you can. This is far from being an accurate way to do it, but it's better than just guessing. Also, try to make sure at this point that your East - West (right-left) adjustment bolts (on either side of the mount as opposed to the front and back of the mount, which adjust up and down) are set so that there's plenty of travel in both directions - it would be very painful to find out that you couldn't move the mount more in a direction because you started out too far to one side or the other! I say this because the farther you are out of perfect alignment, the more travel you may need to get there, so it really pays to keep this in mind.
While we're talking about how you're setting up, let's also touch on where you're setting up - you need to have a clear view straight over your head and to the south (behind the mount), and you also need to have a view either to the East or West that is as low to the horizon as you can get it for the drift alignment to work.
Now, set up your camera in the telescope and get it focused. Start up whatever program you have (you mentioned K3CCDtools so I will proceed from the assumption that you have it), and bring up your preview window.
Find a star. Any star will do to get the camera focused, but at this point you may as well choose the first star you will need for your drift alignment - this is a time saver. Here's an easy way to figure out where in the sky this star is.
First, move your mount so that the counterweights are paralell to the ground, and your scope is facing straight up. This will put your scope on the meridian (an imaginary line running from north to south straight over your head).
Now, looking at the body of your mount, move the scope in DEC toward the south (the rear of the mount) so that your scope and the mount look something like a "T" laying on its side (if you look at the scope and mount from the side). This points your scope roughly at the celestial equator.
Take a look at this area of the sky and pick a star that is somewhere in this general vicinity - it does not have to be exactly there, just in the neighborhood. The important parts to consider is that you don't stray too far from here, and that the star is easily visible on your preview screen. Use this star to focus your camera - it doesn't necessarily have to be a critical focus, but the sharper it is the better.
Now we need to line up the camera and figure out which direction the image is oriented. Bring up the recticle display in K3. Now slew the telescope so that the star moves in a left-right (or right-left) direction, and note how well the star tracks the horizontal line of the recticle. You need to rotate the camera in your focuser so that the star follows the horizontal line of the recticle as closely as you can possibly get it. Be prepared to spend some time learning how to do this step, but once you figure it out, it'll take less and less time to accomplish.
Once the star tracks exactly with the horizontal line of the recticle then your camera's orientation is set. Now you need to figure out which way North, South, East and West are in your view. This is easy to do. To find North-South, just lightly push on the South side of your scope (on the end that the light is coming in) towards the North while watching the display. Push just enough to be able to see the star move in your display. Your star will appear to move to the South. Now you know the North-South axis. You can use a similar routine for East-West - lightly pushing on the West side of your scope towards the East makes the star appear to move West.
Whew! All that to get to here! Now we're ready to actually look at the East-West drift of the mount. As counter-intuitive as this sounds, we look for this East-West misalignment by watching for a North-South drift of the star in our display. Slew the scope so that the star you've just used to focus and orient your camera with is placed exactly on the line of the recticle that runs East-West. Try to place it as exactly on the line as you can. We want to bisect the star with this line (cut the star in half).
Now we watch for the star to drift off the East-West line in one direction or the other, and we move the mount using the East-West (side to side) adjustments to correct this drift. The rules for this are pretty simple at this point:
Step 1 - Correcting East-West misalignment
If the star drifts South, the polar axis is pointing too far East.
If the star drifts North, the polar axis is pointing too far West.
Depending on how far out of perfect alignment you are, the star may start to drift immediately. You can make adjustments as soon as you can positively detect the direction it's drifting in, using the above rules. At first, you will probably want to make a fairly large correction. Watch that you do not lose your driftng star off the edge of the screen while making your adjustments - if it looks like that is going to happen then center the star and then continue to move the mount if you need to. As you get closer to nailing the alignment, make smaller and smaller moves. I find that sometimes it's advisable to adjust past where you think the perfect point is so that you get a sense of what you are accomplishing by moving the scope. The bottom line here is that you are aiming for having the star stay perfectly bisected by the East-West line of your recticle for a longer period of time than you would want to expose for without guiding - a good time frame is five minutes with no drift - the longer it can stay right on the line the better your alignment is. I've had the star stay perfectly bisected for over a half hour (I lose track of time chatting with folks while it drifts), which is a very good alignment.
Now that you have drifted out the East West misalignment, you need to do the same for the North-South axis. Leaving your DEC axis exactly where it is, unlock your RA axis and move it either to the East or West, whichever direction gets you closest to the horizon. Find a star in the general vicinity, just like you did earlier. Your camera should still be focused and correctly oriented, so all you need to do at this point is figure out where North-South and East-West are again, using the same trick you used earlier. Once that's settled, you're ready to go.
Once again, bisect the star on the East-West line of the recticle, and watch for drift in the North-South direction. However, this time we're checking to see if the mount is too high or too low, and we use the adjustments at the front and rear of the mount to move the mount up or down. An added wrinkle here is that the rules are different depending on if you are looking at the Eastern horizon or the Western horizon:
Step 2a - Correcting North-South misalignment (using Eastern horizon)
If the star drifts South, the polar axis is pointing too low.
If the star drifts North, the polar axis is pointing too high.
Step 2b - Correcting North-South misalignment (using Western horizon)
If the star drifts South, the polar axis is pointing too high.
If the star drifts North, the polar axis is pointing too low.
As before, we're looking to keep the star bisected on the East-West line for as long as we can stand to watch it - at least five minutes is a good rule of thumb, longer is always better. Once you have this down, you might want to go back to check the East-West just in case you accidentally messed something up along the line - that's your call.
And that's that!
No question about it - this procedure takes time - time to learn (repetition and familiarity make it faster), and time to perform (repetition and familiarity make it faster). It taxes your patience, but it is definitely worth the trouble!
Charlie
-------------------- "He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy
Weston CSC:
|
FuriousGeorge
super member
Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 188
Loc: Louisville, KY
|
|
This is one of the best replies I've ever read....
|
Charlie Hein
Postmaster
   
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7433
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
|
|
Quote:
This is one of the best replies I've ever read....
Holy Cow! Thanks so much! That has to be the nicest thing that someone has said to/about me in a while... my only hope is that the post is really helpful to somebody.
Geeze.. Thanks again! 
Charlie
-------------------- "He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy
Weston CSC:
|
badsnoopy
One star is enough
   
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 3556
Loc: La Porte, IN
|
|
Yup saved the post so I can read it again when I forget what it says. Very nice explanation indeed. Thanks.
-------------------- Robert
TV Genesis SDF
Losmandy G11
10x14 Roll roof observatory
Lumenera SkyNyx 2-2m
|
lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1650
Loc: Okanagan Valley
|
|
That was really GREAT Charlie,Wonderful actually,I wonder if there is a way to print it off,to have it help me walk thru it the first few times.The thing is, I do have a fork mount on a heavy duty wedge, I have an Ultima 8 pec (celestron)do you know the scope? I made my own altitude and azimuth fine controls for the wedge,and can't wait to try them, but it is still snowing out. How fine are the reticle lines in kc3ccdtools,would they be like the reticle in a 12mm eyepiece? Would you be able to use the reticle to guide with? I am hoping to find a way to use a webcam to watch the guide star on a laptop and use the hand control, I think this would be much easier on my body, (not quite as flexible anymore)
Thanks Lawrie
Thanks again Lawrie
-------------------- Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
|
|
8 registered and 6 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Charlie Hein, knuklhdastnmr
Print Thread
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Thread views: 3664
|
|
|
|
|
|
|