Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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What a great day. My mirror came back from being recoated from NOVA optical (Steve did a great job, by the way, I would recommend him, it only took him 4 days... plus a couple weeks with UPS). So with brand new enhanced coatings on the primary and secondary, a newly built mount, fresh flocking, and perfectly collimated... I looked at saturn and the moon.
The seeing was QUITE BAD!!! I could split Castor about half the time. Still, Saturn and the moon held up well at 200x, 300x they looked alright sometime, but I could judge some other things about the eyepieces.
5mm B/TMB- This is quite an eyepiece. On moments of good seeing, saturn and the moon looked great. Very sharp, minimal lateral color (a little near the edge, but not anything worth worrying about). Very flat field. Extremely good contrast and little if any scatter. I do have to say, I think it was on par with the HD orthos, but with more eye relief and larger field. The moon was very white, with black black shaddows. No glare when placed out of the FOV. This EP will be mostly for DSOs (I do little more than glance at planets), globs and PNs. Anything that makes a good planetary EP makes for a great deal for these objects. I am quite happy with it. This EP is way better in performance than the Radians, which I think is its real competetor. I think this series is a worthy followup to the discontinued supermonos (although not quite as good, they are a good substitute since the monos are gone).
7mm WO UWAN- I like this eyepiece. I sold my 6.7 meade UWA, series 5000, because I just never could like it. Compared to it and the 7mmT6, the biggest difference is light scatter. I noticed this on saturn, there was a neat little halo around the planet that is much dimmer in the nagler. On the moon, it was a bit more coffee colored than I am used to, but not too much more than the T6. No reflections. The field was pretty flat, stars looked more or less the same at the edge of the field as the Naglers. I didn't check to see if there was much pincushion distortion, although that is one of my plans. I think the eye relief stated (12mm) may be a bit generous, but still comfortable. The fit and finish is excellent, equal to the nagler. Again, this is going to be my medium/high power DSO eyepiece, giving me about 200x.
So, all and all a nice night. Lots of new toys, and the sky cooperated.
All the best.
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10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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Chopin
Canis Insanus
Reged: 02/03/05
Posts: 3511
Loc: In the doghouse.
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Sounds like the new pair put a smile on your face, even if the "seeing" didn't. And another opinion stating the B/TMB as superior to the Radians. Hmmmm, I don't really need another EP...
Interesting to hear about the coloration on the UWAN. Do you mean the white of the moon looked warm, as if coffee stained? Or do you mean that the blacks were slightly lacking contrast, like black coffee? Otherwise, it seems like the T6 still holds the top spot, if only marginally.
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JasonŽ
birdsbyjason.com
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Tom Trusock
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 29219
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Quote:
Otherwise, it seems like the T6 still holds the top spot, if only marginally.
Nice report.
FWIW, I'd agree with this - I see slightly more scatter in the UWAN's than the naglers - (very slightly more). I'd attribute this to coatings or slightly rougher optical surfaces.
Overall, I'd put em as better than just about any other ultrawide eyepiece on the market - excepting the naglers. Course, there's not that huge of a field to draw from....
I haven't seen the 5mm TMB yet. Talked to Bill a week or so ago, and he said he was sending one out, but haven't seen hide nor hair of it.
T
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Time spent doing something you love is not wasted.
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Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
Overall, I'd put em as better than just about any other ultrawide eyepiece on the market - excepting the naglers. Course, there's not that huge of a field to draw from....
Exactly. I like it better than the Meade UWA, there isn't the glare, no dust in the lenses, more comfortable. There is still some kidney beaning for me, but I'm pretty sure that I'll figure it out after a couple times out (the T6 naglers were horrible in this respect until I got used to them, then never had a problem). The slight scatter isn't a big deal for me, I don't expect it to be much of a problem. Across the field sharpness and flatness were what I was looking for. After all the eyepieces I've looked at, these two things seem to be the toughest things for designers to get right, so in this respect, I applaud William Optics.
Coffee colored. I have seen some eyepieces with really warm images. On planets, I generally like this because it acts like a filter, sort of. On the moon, it is a pain. The Radians, I noticed, were especially bad here. On the moon they definately added a tint.
The UWAN is not too objectionable, but it was easily noticable after using the B/TMB (which I've decided I need more of these). The blacks of the shadows aren't quite as black, the whites have this creamy-coffee tint to it. I don't mean that the moon was tan colored, it was just a slight tint.
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10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
And another opinion stating the B/TMB as superior to the Radians. Hmmmm, I don't really need another EP...
Yea, no doubt... I like it better than the Radians. It is just a really comfortable and seems to do everything right for a reasonable price.
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10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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eddie kirkland
sage
Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 458
Loc: Alabama
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Brian, I think I remember you having some Pentax's at one time. How do they compare to the B/TMB eps?
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Eddie Kirkland
Auburn, AL
16" f/4.5 Midnightelescope truss dob
10" f/6 Astrosky truss dob
Stellarvue/TMB 105
Stellarvue Nighthawk II
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Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Oh lord... I think the most valid comparisson would be the Pentax XLs? About the same AFOV. So let's see. The pentax had excellent transmission, and so does the b/tmb, judging by the clarity of the moon and planets. My usual test for this is looking for the faintest star I can find. I checked them out under Atlanta suburban skies, so not really worth looking for faintest stars. But, I suppose that they are about the same here.
Contrast and scatter - I'd say that the B/TMB is at least equal here. The contrast is really nice, little if any halos around saturn, and the moon was very white/black contrast. The pentax was a TAD warmer toned, but not much.
What I do remember is that the XLs/XWs had a good bit of lateral color, sort of like the ring of fire seen in the T5 Naglers. This really wasn't much of a problem in the B/TMB, except at the extreme edge, when the planets was starting to actually leave the field.
The pentax also had a bit of pincushion distortion. Not nearly as much as the T6 naglers, but it was there.
I think the pentax is a great planetary eyepiece (for my purposes anyway) and even better DSOs. The B/TMB certainly doesn't lose anything in performance to them, maybe even slightly better for planets. But, it is not as comfortable, and smaller FOV.
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10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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Mike B
Starstruck
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 5056
Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
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Quote:
I think the pentax is a great planetary eyepiece (for my purposes anyway) and even better DSOs. The B/TMB certainly doesn't lose anything in performance to them, maybe even slightly better for planets. But, it is not as comfortable, and smaller FOV.
Brian-
Very nice report- Bet it feels good to get yer scope all fixed up... here's wishing you some better air  to use it with!
I have only one of each of these (14 XL vs. 9 BO/TMB), and very much concur... the extra 5* of the XL feels just noticable, & the full 20mm of ER feels truly luxurious to this eyeglass-wearer... the BO/TMB works for MY eyeglasses (YMMV), but is noticably tighter.
But i, too, have found the BO/TMB to be a wonderful performer, and a worthy deal! I mean, look at the $$-range of EPs we're comparing them to!
More, please 
mike b
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"I have been paddling in the shallows of a great ocean of knowledge." - Sir Isaac Newton
* * 15" F4.55 Starsplitter Dob * *
 Pacheco State Park
 Fremont Peak
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Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
But i, too, have found the BO/TMB to be a wonderful performer, and a worthy deal! I mean, look at the $$-range of EPs we're comparing them to!
Exactly! When a $100 EP has comparable performance with one a few subjective tradeoffs... anyway, these things were designed right.
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10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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william
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 556
Loc: Lexington , South Carolina
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Quote:
Quote:
But i, too, have found the BO/TMB to be a wonderful performer, and a worthy deal! I mean, look at the $$-range of EPs we're comparing them to!
Exactly! When a $100 EP has comparable performance with one a few subjective tradeoffs... anyway, these things were designed right.
Brian
Good review, you have convinced me. I have the Burgess/TMB 5mm on the way! 
William
_____________
Burgess 127/8 achro
Vixen 90mm f/11 achro
Oberwerk 15x70
Garrett 10x50
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eddie kirkland
sage
Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 458
Loc: Alabama
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Thanks for the report, Brian. Will you and your B/TMB ep be coming to GSV later this month? I'd like to take a peek at it.
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Eddie Kirkland
Auburn, AL
16" f/4.5 Midnightelescope truss dob
10" f/6 Astrosky truss dob
Stellarvue/TMB 105
Stellarvue Nighthawk II
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LivingNDixie
Lord of Ferrets
Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 16184
Loc: Hoover, AL
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Ditto what Eddie saids, speaking of which when you two arriving to the star party, I think Rusty is getting there Thursday. Just to keep this thread on topic, y'all might want to respond to the thread in the star party forum. Of course its Brians thread and he can respond wherever he wants 
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Preston
Celestron 11" Nexstar GPS XLT
Tak FS 78
Tak Teegul-Lapides
Lunt LS60T/Ha 60mm f/8.33
Vixen Porta Mount
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Mike B
Starstruck
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 5056
Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
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William-
Excellent! Let us know your impressions as well-
mike b
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"I have been paddling in the shallows of a great ocean of knowledge." - Sir Isaac Newton
* * 15" F4.55 Starsplitter Dob * *
Pacheco State Park
Fremont Peak
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Doug Culbertson
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/06/05
Posts: 1068
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Brian
Good review, you have convinced me. I have the Burgess/TMB 5mm on the way!
William
_____________
Burgess 127/8 achro
Vixen 90mm f/11 achro
Oberwerk 15x70
Garrett 10x50
Yeah same here, but I also decided to take a chance on the 4mm. Should see a good bit of use in my refractor. 
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Doug
Midway, FL
Life's too short to drink cheap beer
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msholden
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/21/05
Posts: 1187
Loc: Connecticut
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Quote:
Yeah same here, but I also decided to take a chance on the 4mm. Should see a good bit of use in my refractor.
I'm surprised at how much I use the 4 in my 115/7. Besides planets, it's good for small dso.
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Life is too short to look through bad glass.
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Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Sigh... I will not be attending the star party. I am taking a 6 month course in drug counseling, meets two weekends a month. Just so happens this month it meets during the star party.
No doubt the weather will be perfect. ha ha ha I hope you guys have a great time.
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10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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Tommaso Dorigo
super member
Reged: 03/08/06
Posts: 116
Loc: Venice, Italy and Chicago, Ill...
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Hi William,
I also might get one of those (for a 16" f/5 still being built). Just a quick question, where are you getting it from ? A link would be appreciated.
Thanks!
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Visit me at http://dorigo.wordpress.com
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william
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 556
Loc: Lexington , South Carolina
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Hi Tommaso,
My Burgess/TMB 5mm arrived today, along with the usual new purchase "CLOUDS".  I got it from High Point Scientific, they have the 4, 5, 9mms for $99 with no shipping charges.
William
Burgess 127/8 achro
Vixen 90mm f/11 achro
Oberwerk 15x70
Garrett 10x50
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Tom Trusock
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 29219
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My 5mm Burgess/TMB arrived today as well. I ordered directly from Burgess Optical.
http://www.burgessoptical.com/
I'd bet that astronomics would have them as well -
http://www.astronomics.com/
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Time spent doing something you love is not wasted.
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Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Astronomics does not have them. Pretty much, Highpoint Scientific is the only game in town.
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10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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square_peg
Postmaster
Reged: 03/26/04
Posts: 27131
Loc: Maple Valley, WA
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Quote:
Astronomics does not have them. Pretty much, Highpoint Scientific is the only game in town.
And direct from Burgess.
Astronomics currently lists only the 4mm & 9mm as in stock, not the new 5mm.
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Tom (Pegster)
DSH-8 (GSO Dob)
15x70 Oberwerks
SVP 100 f/6 achro
WO 66 Petzval
Sears Discoverer EQ 60/900
8x42 Regals
History is Philosophy teaching by examples.
Thucydides
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Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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More observing on the moon with the 5mm Burgess and I noticed something bad. There is a bad reflection off one angle when the moon is out of the FOV, puts a big triangle of yellow light flooding the view. And there appears to be some vignetting, maybe the last 3-4% of the FOV. The eyepiece is still super sharp and very contrasty on axis and off (except for that one area), and as long as the moon is away from that bad place.
I haven't dropped it or done anything to it. It has been in the scope and in the eyepiece case. I caught this only the second time I had it out. Anyway, I called Highpoint Scientific and they immediately sent out a repalcement and had the UPS guy come pick up the old one.
I will say this: I've never returned an eyepiece, never had a reason to. Wasn't sure what to expect when I called them up to say, 'something is wrong that I can't quite tell you why'... but there was no nonsense, he just said a new one was on the way and told me to leave the other at the front door and UPS would come get it.
So, moral of the story. No doubt my first impressions of the B.TMB were alright, but it looks like the real thing will be better. And, Highpoint Scientific has excellent customer service, so gold star for them. Should get the new one today or tomorrow.
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10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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Biff
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/04/05
Posts: 2308
Loc: Courtice, Ontario
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Can't get much better service than that!! My dealings with HP has been just as superb. They were very pleasant on the phone and I got my two EPs from them in just 51 hours from ordering, and coming to Canada I'd say that's pretty good.
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Ryan
Antares 200mm f/6 Dob & 130mm f/5 Travel Dob.
Projects on the go...
- a couple 80mm SS refractors on the back burner.
- a few small mirrors awaiting polishing
- 260mm f/7.15 mirror... still polishing
Member of DRAA
 My house.
 DRAACO
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LivingNDixie
Lord of Ferrets
Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 16184
Loc: Hoover, AL
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Brian,
I have returned one eyepiece in my entire life, it was a Pentax 10mm XW, and the reason I returned it was big dirt particle between one of the lens. OPT was great on the exchange.
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Preston
Celestron 11" Nexstar GPS XLT
Tak FS 78
Tak Teegul-Lapides
Lunt LS60T/Ha 60mm f/8.33
Vixen Porta Mount
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Sol Robbins
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 1642
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Quote:
More observing on the moon with the 5mm Burgess and I noticed something bad. There is a bad reflection off one angle when the moon is out of the FOV, puts a big triangle of yellow light flooding the view. And there appears to be some vignetting, maybe the last 3-4% of the FOV. The eyepiece is still super sharp and very contrasty on axis and off (except for that one area), and as long as the moon is away from that bad place.
I haven't dropped it or done anything to it. It has been in the scope and in the eyepiece case. I caught this only the second time I had it out. Anyway, I called Highpoint Scientific and they immediately sent out a repalcement and had the UPS guy come pick up the old one.
Hi Brian,
I had the chance to really test the 5mm out. I also have the 4mm,6mm and 9mm.
The 5mm I have had the same reflection ray, same as the the previous ones before the new retaining rings were sent out.
I've known Bill for a very long time and I spoke to him about this in depth amongst other things. Basically my retaining ring was grooved. Apparently the 5mm eps have, or are supposed to have bead blasted retaining rings. Bill was very concerned and said he will personally check out his remaining 5mm inventory. My guess is that some small amount of 5mm eps went out from the factory with grooved retaining rings with lion's share having bead blasted rings.
Mine in particular had two outward ridges sandwiching one indented groove on the inside diameter. I imagine when these little rings are cut, the grooves can be located anywhere at this location. The fix is exactly what Tom T. had previously posted. Namely, removing the ring then lining it with some flocking material and reinstalling it.
Anyway, I did this and won't be sending my 5mm back.
During a night of excellent seeing, this ep performed as well as my 5mm Ortho only with the advantage of better eye relief and much wider field while retaining Ortho-like sharpness. Light scatter was roughly the same in both eps, but this is hard to tell since the FOVs are so different. Subtle color variations on Lunar Maria was better in the BO/TMB.
In my scopes the 5mm focal length, 1120mm and 1270mm, is a real sweet spot.
I am only speculating but I can't see the prices of these eps remaining so low as compared to what the competition offers at similar performance.
Best,
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Sol Robbins
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william
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 556
Loc: Lexington , South Carolina
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Hi Sol,
I just got a 5mm and have the same yellow reflection, with the Moon just outside of the FOV. I thought that it might have been my diagonal, but this is the only eyepiece that I see this with. I have no idea how to flock the ring, and don't want to go to the trouble in sending it back. Does it affect it's performance when the object is in the FOV?
William
Burgess 127mm f/8 achro
Vixen 90mm f/11 achro
Meade 60mm f/15 achro
Oberwerk 15x70
Garrett 10x50
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Sol Robbins
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 1642
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Quote:
Does it affect it's performance when the object is in the FOV?
Not really. Since the Moon is so large, I believe it would effect Lunar observing.
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Sol Robbins
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Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Well. I got my new one back today, popped it in the focuser... still got the glare. I feel so bad that I returned that eyepiece and there was nothing wrong with it. Well, there is something seriously wrong with a planetary eyepiece that has problems with glare on the moon... But you know what I mean.
Anyway, so I took the retaining ring out and flocked it a bit of flocking material, then painted the whole inside with Krylon Ultra Flat black paint, my favorite to telescope use. By the time I was done, the clouds were in and the moon was gone. I aimed it at a street light across the street and it looks like all or most of the glare is gone. Jupiter looked decent through the trees despite the storm brewing seeing.
I hope it works. I did a star test in different parts of the field, and although the seeing was bad, I could tell there was no vignetting from the flocking, no major optical problems, so it looks like I did eyepiece surgery without much harm. But man, what a pain. I'll mostly be using this for DSOs, though, so if it doesn't work this time, i can still salvage it I suppose.
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10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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Sol Robbins
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 1642
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Brian,
I spoke to Bill yesterday. The flocking worked in my eyepiece.
Best,
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Sol Robbins
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Biff
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/04/05
Posts: 2308
Loc: Courtice, Ontario
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Any chance you guys can do a little "How To.." with some pics maybe?
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Ryan
Antares 200mm f/6 Dob & 130mm f/5 Travel Dob.
Projects on the go...
- a couple 80mm SS refractors on the back burner.
- a few small mirrors awaiting polishing
- 260mm f/7.15 mirror... still polishing
Member of DRAA
My house.
DRAACO
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Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Hi Biff. I'm working on it, but I don't want to post pictures until I am sure that it works. It is quite easy, just gotta be careful not to drop anything or touch the lens.
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10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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Sol Robbins
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 1642
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Check out Tom T's review which has pictures. Its a PDF in the eyepiece reviews here. I also think there is a very long thread in this Forum. Type Burgess TMB in the search box.
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Sol Robbins
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Tom Trusock
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 29219
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Quote:
Quote:
Astronomics does not have them. Pretty much, Highpoint Scientific is the only game in town.
And direct from Burgess.
Astronomics currently lists only the 4mm & 9mm as in stock, not the new 5mm.
Yeah, I saw that, but expected that Astronomics would probably have them in very shortly - possibly now, but not up on their web page yet.
T
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Time spent doing something you love is not wasted.
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Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Here are some pictures of how I fixed the B/TMB. First I will say, it is 90% fixed. At a couple angles there is a slight bit of glare, when the moon is on axis, there is none. Second, this was such a pain, I am not going to worry about those couple angles. I don't look at the moon often anyway.
First picture is the flocking of the retaining ring. You can see the retaining ring (it is already flocked, forgot to take a picture pre-flocking) in front of the field lens (this is after you unscrew the barrel, inside). There are two small notches. Take a small flathead screwdriver, like those for glasses, and unscrew it. be careful or you will slip and scrape the glass, which is a $99 mistake.
After you get it out, apply flocking. I used black sandpaper like Tom did, with a light layer of Krylon Ultra Flat black paint. Bonded it to the retaining ring with some superglue and let it sit for about 9 hours while I did other things durring the day.
The part of the paper facing the lens must be clipped because otherwise it will scrape the glass. Mine vignettes the glass slightly but it was completely unnoticeable on the moon, even brightness all the way to the field stop. You can't see it, but mine extends a bit further past the retaining ring, forming a small baffle.
Finally, the area around the retaining ring was very badly painted, there were a lot of chrome shiny places, so i just painted those over too. The glass is pretty far inside the barrel, so with reasonable care you won't get any paint on the glass. Fortunately, I know from experience that this Krylon spray paint (sprayed in a coffee cup and then brushed on) will come off for days VERY EASILY with just a bit of rubbing alcohol.
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10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Screwed it all together and this didn't fully take care of the problem, maybe only half of it. So I took another of Tom's suggestions and made a baffle out of cardboard. It is shaped just alike a washer, with a hole over the lens. Stuck it on top of everything after I painted it black and let it dry for an hour.
The flocking and the baffle finally did it. There is still a little reflection somewhere, but I am not ever going to do this again. The Eyepiece is still very sharp on axis, very contrasty when the reflection is not a problem. I like it now, but I don't like to modify my eyepieces, only my scope :-)
I will keep this eyepiece forever now, because I've done so much stuff to it, i can never sell it.
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10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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square_peg
Postmaster
Reged: 03/26/04
Posts: 27131
Loc: Maple Valley, WA
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Sounds like it might be worthwhile to call ahead and make sure that you're getting an eyepiece with the bead-blasted retaining ring.
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Tom (Pegster)
DSH-8 (GSO Dob)
15x70 Oberwerks
SVP 100 f/6 achro
WO 66 Petzval
Sears Discoverer EQ 60/900
8x42 Regals
History is Philosophy teaching by examples.
Thucydides
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Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
Sounds like it might be worthwhile to call ahead and make sure that you're getting an eyepiece with the bead-blasted retaining ring.
Yea, no doubt. It is really too bad, this could be such a great eyepiece if it wasn't for such a debilitating flaw.
So tell me, those of you who are more knowledgable than I... How much of a problem should this be on DSOs? Even if I hadn't fixed it, do you think there would be much an affect on Globs and PNs?
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10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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Mike Hosea
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/24/03
Posts: 3560
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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Both of my B/TMB's have custom baffling. I love the optics, but I hate the field group mechanics. Even so, I didn't expect any significant glare issues in the production 5mm. I inspected the 5mm prototype for them. It had a glare problem that traced back to a faulty retaining ring (a hand-cut approximation that lacked sharp threads close the the lens). I didn't detect any other significant glare issues in the prototype, although I suggested tapering the external flange more. One could do this at home with a countersink drill bit, but I decided against it because the exposed aluminum would have to be painted (in lieu of having access to some place to re-anodize it), which would make it ill-advised to clean the field lens with acetone.
Anyway, I guess it's a little too late to inspect the threads on Brian's retaining ring. Basically, when I had the glare in view, I used a magnifier to focus on the source of the glare within the eyepiece, which probably sounds easier to do than it is.
The question of how it will affect other things is hard to answer. It depends on how much light is in the offending annulus of sky. Generally I'd say it would have minimal impact with only sky glow and faint stars there. I know how Brian speaks highly of Pentax XWs, but I found a similar design flaw with the 5mm XW, and it performs rather well on DSOs. I guess people don't often encounter situations where something very bright is illuminating the internal baffle edges while the field of view comparatively dim. In comparing the 5mm XW to the 5mm T6, the XW generally had a slight advantage until the T6 easily bested it in a glare test on the earthshine-lit portion of the lunar surface. The field in the XW was badly washed out from reflections off the edges of the baffles, yet you don't hear people complaining about the baffling in XWs, and rightly so.
The best performing negative field group baffling I have seen relies light trapping and just the minimal pair of "baffles" (narrow flange and narrow single-edge ring) near the light path. I think the 5mm T6 and 5mm Tak LE are doing it right.
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Mike
- 7" f/6.7 home-built planetary Newt on an Osypowski EQ platform
- 13mm Ethos (5.9mm w/2x TV Barlow, 4.2mm w/2.8x Klee Barlow)
- Canon 15x50IS and 10x30IS Binoculars
- Bogen 501HDV+028B Tripod
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Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Hi Mike! Haven't heard from you in a while. Nice to see you again.
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10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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william
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 556
Loc: Lexington , South Carolina
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Is this a problem, with all of the eyepieces in this series?
I had the 9mm, and Astronomics sent me a new ring, but I sold it before installing it. Will the new rings solve this problem 
William
Burgess 127mm f/8 achro
Vixen 90mm f/11 achro
Meade 60mm f/15 achro
Oberwerk 15x70
Garrett 10x50
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square_peg
Postmaster
Reged: 03/26/04
Posts: 27131
Loc: Maple Valley, WA
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I sure hope you sent the new ring along with that eyepiece when you sold it. The new rings fix the problem in the 4, 6 & 9mm eyepieces. The problem in the 5mm EPs may be limited to only a fraction of those that have been shipped.
Does anyone have a 5mm that has the bead-blasted retaining ring and no glare problem?
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Tom (Pegster)
DSH-8 (GSO Dob)
15x70 Oberwerks
SVP 100 f/6 achro
WO 66 Petzval
Sears Discoverer EQ 60/900
8x42 Regals
History is Philosophy teaching by examples.
Thucydides
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Tom Trusock
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 29219
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Quote:
Screwed it all together and this didn't fully take care of the problem, maybe only half of it. So I took another of Tom's suggestions and made a baffle out of cardboard. It is shaped just alike a washer, with a hole over the lens. Stuck it on top of everything after I painted it black and let it dry for an hour.
The flocking and the baffle finally did it. There is still a little reflection somewhere, but I am not ever going to do this again. The Eyepiece is still very sharp on axis, very contrasty when the reflection is not a problem. I like it now, but I don't like to modify my eyepieces, only my scope :-)
I will keep this eyepiece forever now, because I've done so much stuff to it, i can never sell it.
I just saw this issue in a 5mm myself last night.
I'd recommend you (and whoever else has a problem) contact burgess optical directly no matter what you've done to the eyepiece or who you ordered it from.
His phone number is on their web site at: http://www.burgessoptical.com
I communicated with him about this issue just last night, and he's aware of the problem (although I think he thought it had been addressed/solved).
The good news is that the rings in the 4mm that he had to replace are the same OD as the rings in the 5mm and are a perfect fit. When I swapped the ring from the 4 to the 5, the problem went away, and the eyepiece was absolutly excellent in performance - the slightly larger ID had no immediately noticable effect on vignetting, field size and the field stop was still sharp. Bill is shipping me out a replacement ring on Monday. On inspection of the rings, he found it looked like there were two different styles - some 5mm's seem to have the issue, and some don't. The other approach is to flock and baffle the eyepiece as Brian has done.
As an aside, I'm still amazed that such a minor mechanical thing can make such a huge difference in performance. I mean I "know" (via optical theory) this can create issues, but seeing it really re-inforces just how everything interacts, and how tight the tolerances can be.
If/as I hear things from Bill regarding this, I'll be sure to pass it on.
Tom T.
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Time spent doing something you love is not wasted.
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Teal'c
Indeed
Reged: 08/02/05
Posts: 3750
Loc: TN
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What's the deal? Is the manufacturer trying to cut corners?
Is the bead-blasted ring just easier to produce?
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SV95T 95/650(LOMO)
SV80S 80/480(LOMO)
Matthias Wirth 80/600(LOMO)
Celestron 120 XLT
AP140.... Waiting......Waiting....
Etch-O-Sketch and an eraser. Although....the eraser dosn't work
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william
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 556
Loc: Lexington , South Carolina
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Quote:
I sure hope you sent the new ring along with that eyepiece when you sold it. The new rings fix the problem in the 4, 6 & 9mm eyepieces. The problem in the 5mm EPs may be limited to only a fraction of those that have been shipped.
Does anyone have a 5mm that has the bead-blasted retaining ring and no glare problem?
Yes, I sent it to the buyer. I had it sold and did not want to try and install it. Hope that I can find one for my 5mm.
William
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Tom Trusock
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 29219
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Quote:
Both of my B/TMB's have custom baffling. I love the optics, but I hate the field group mechanics. Even so, I didn't expect any significant glare issues in the production 5mm. I inspected the 5mm prototype for them. It had a glare problem that traced back to a faulty retaining ring (a hand-cut approximation that lacked sharp threads close the the lens). I didn't detect any other significant glare issues in the prototype, although I suggested tapering the external flange more. One could do this at home with a countersink drill bit, but I decided against it because the exposed aluminum would have to be painted (in lieu of having access to some place to re-anodize it), which would make it ill-advised to clean the field lens with acetone.
Anyway, I guess it's a little too late to inspect the threads on Brian's retaining ring. Basically, when I had the glare in view, I used a magnifier to focus on the source of the glare within the eyepiece, which probably sounds easier to do than it is.
The threads in the 5mm retaining ring (in the sample I have) are very shallowly cut, and most likely are simply not serving as an effective baffle. As an experiment (at Bill's suggestion) I swapped the retaining ring from the 4mm and 5mm and found that inserting the 4mm retaining ring into the 5mm completely solved the issue. As I stated earlier, Bill mentioned that it looks like they have two different styles of retaining rings in the 5mm. Assuming that both types don't have this issue, they need to replace the affected ones with a different ring. If they have any remaining 4mm rings on hand, they have an instant fix.
Quote:
The question of how it will affect other things is hard to answer. It depends on how much light is in the offending annulus of sky.
From experience, I can say that the impact is relatively minimal. Most of the sky looked jet black, the exception being a "spike" of light when a bright (1st magnitude) star was placed in the "correct" location in the FOV of either of the scopes I was using last night (WO ZS105 and FS102NSV). Although I didn't explictly check for it, from the results I got when star testing, I would expect there to be a planetary glare issue as well. On DSO's, I wouldn't expect it to be much of an issue.
FWIW, When I evaluated the 4mm prototype, there were no glare issues whatsoever, but from what I understand, a change was made at the factory without Bill's or Thomas's knowledge. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it goes back to something similar here as well.
Tom T.
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Time spent doing something you love is not wasted.
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Tom Trusock
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 29219
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Quote:
What's the deal? Is the manufacturer trying to cut corners?
My guess would be poor QC on the part of the plant that manufacturers them for Burgess.
Tom T.
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Time spent doing something you love is not wasted.
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Mike Hosea
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/24/03
Posts: 3560
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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Quote:
Hi Mike! Haven't heard from you in a while. Nice to see you again.
Thanks. I swing by the eyepiece forum fairly regularly, albeit briefly, but my "post reply" threshold is set very high these days.
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Mike
- 7" f/6.7 home-built planetary Newt on an Osypowski EQ platform
- 13mm Ethos (5.9mm w/2x TV Barlow, 4.2mm w/2.8x Klee Barlow)
- Canon 15x50IS and 10x30IS Binoculars
- Bogen 501HDV+028B Tripod
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Biff
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/04/05
Posts: 2308
Loc: Courtice, Ontario
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Yeah, whats with the bead blasted retaining ring? Is it a better solution to the threaded types of the 4mm,6mm and 9mm? (I don't have a 9mm so i'm guessing it has the threaded type), or is it just a cheaper way to get the same result. Sounds to me like it's a better solution but who am I to say.
Does anyone have one of the bead blasted rings and care to share a pic of it? My 7.5mm BO/TMB is supposed to have the bead blasted retaining ring, I'm not sure how long it's going to be before the 7.5mm is in my hands and my curiosity is getting the better of me.
It is funny though how one seemingly unimportant part can cause so many issues with glare.
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Ryan
Antares 200mm f/6 Dob & 130mm f/5 Travel Dob.
Projects on the go...
- a couple 80mm SS refractors on the back burner.
- a few small mirrors awaiting polishing
- 260mm f/7.15 mirror... still polishing
Member of DRAA
My house.
DRAACO
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msholden
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/21/05
Posts: 1187
Loc: Connecticut
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The retaining rings on the 5mm and later production planetary eyepieces are supposed to be threaded and bead blasted. This would be better than either threaded or bead blasted alone.
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Life is too short to look through bad glass.
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Tom Trusock
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 29219
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FWIW, I got a letter from Bill late last night -
He informed me he's calling Astronomics and High Point today and having them stop sales. He told me that he has enough good ones in stock to cover their inventory, so the ones that go out after tomorrow shouldn't show this issue.
T
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Time spent doing something you love is not wasted.
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msholden
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/21/05
Posts: 1187
Loc: Connecticut
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Mine appears to have the threads, but is not bead blasted.
Any idea what the ones he has are like?
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Life is too short to look through bad glass.
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Sol Robbins
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 1642
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Hi,
If you don't know, don't worry. Spoke to Bill today and he asked me to say that if you discover this problem to simply send it back to Bill himself. He'll send you a nonflaring eyepiece since he said that only a few of them had this problem. Thing is he can't say who got what when they shipped.
From this point on no flaring in the 5mm.
Best,
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Sol Robbins
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Mark Sullivan
member
Reged: 03/13/06
Posts: 28
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I ordered a 5mm from Astronomics on 5/8 and it exhibits the same problem when observing the Moon. Burgess Optical is currently out of replacement rings, but they have promised to send me one as soon as their stock is replenished. As soon as it's fixed I'll try it out against a 5.1mm Pentax XO, a 5mm Supermono, a 5mm UO ortho, and a 5mm Nagler T6. Stay tuned!
-Mark
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Too many scopes, too little time!
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square_peg
Postmaster
Reged: 03/26/04
Posts: 27131
Loc: Maple Valley, WA
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I look forward to your findings, Mark.
And welcome to Cloudynights!
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Tom (Pegster)
DSH-8 (GSO Dob)
15x70 Oberwerks
SVP 100 f/6 achro
WO 66 Petzval
Sears Discoverer EQ 60/900
8x42 Regals
History is Philosophy teaching by examples.
Thucydides
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