Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2551
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
|
|
Keep in mind, a 120ST with binoviewer at 20x is the same as 20x85 binoculars
and actually it has nothing to do with
Which 25x100IF has the widest FOV?
edz
--------------------------------------
As EdZ suggested above, building a 120mmF5 binoscope has nothing to do with Glassthrower's question in another thread: "Which 25X100 IF has wth widest FOV" so I am starting a new thread....
Stu,
I recommend you locate a used 120mm F5 refractor and try it at 15, 30, 50X or higher power. You'd want to find out if false color at various magnifications is acceptable to YOU. To me buliding a 120mmST binoscope but limiting it to 15 or 30X because of CA is hardly making best use of the large objectives.
If you have to step down the a 120mmST most of the time to keep false color to accetable levels you might as well start out with a pair of 100mmF6 refractors. They will cost less and be less bulky.....but then one can purchase the Oberwerk BT 100F6 45 deg off the shelf today. You can enjoy correct image views with 45 deg viewing comfort, go up to 50X+. Price of $1800 includes a nice fork mount and wood tripod. Don't have to source special erecting prisms from Japan or worry about collimation either. Many ATM projects are POSSIBLE but the same results can be achieved with much less effort or $$$$s.
A Garret Optical 30X100 with 2.1 deg FOV is available for $430 today. Many people would not want to invest four or five times that amount for a premium binoviewer+ EPs to transform a 120mmF5 into a 20X85 binocular.
Erik D
|
KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10142
Loc: Lancashire UK
|
|
< A Garret Optical 30X100 with 2.1 deg FOV is available for $430 today. Many people would not want to invest four or five times that amount for a premium binoviewer+ EPs to transform a 120mmF5 into a 20X85 binocular. >
Well pointed out , Erik .
For emphasis -- NOT MANY people would consider doing such a thing !
Kenny
-------------------- Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
|
BoyntonStu
sage
Reged: 01/22/06
Posts: 263
|
|
From CN Review of the 120ST
My first few nights out with the Astroview 120ST, I could make out Cassini's division in Saturn and at least 4 cloud bands on Jupiter as well as gorgeous details on the moon. I've read other's comments about this scope's inability to resolve much detail and that the views "mush out" at anything above 60-80X magnification (which one would expect from an achromatic refractor of this length), yet I pushed it to 120X with a 10mm EP and a Barlow and it still maintained very sharp images. The views seemed no different with my Meade 26mm & 10mm Super Plossls than with the supplied Orion 25mm & 10mm Sirius Plossls. The Barlow is Orion's 2X APO shorty.
Imagine a pair of used 120ST OTA's for about $200 each.
The trick is to make a 2 mirror Matsumoto RACI.
I would do it in a bino-box.
Would you like to have a 120mm bino-scope capable of 120x magnification for under $750?
I would. In addition, once the bino-box is built, you could use a longer fl OTA for less CA and greater mag.
|
Joad
Wordsmith
   
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11919
|
|
I've been wondering where the bino-box project went. I certainly would be unable to build it at any price, but if you can make a 2 mirror Matsumoto RACI and make the whole device work, that would certainly be an accomplishment no matter what the cost. I've seen some of your R&D on another thread here. Any further progress?
|
Joe Ogiba
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3358
Loc: NJ USA
|
|
Quote:
To me buliding a 120mmST binoscope but limiting it to 15 or 30X because of CA is hardly making best use of the large objectives.
I guess paying $14 grand for 25x150mm binoculars is just as crazy.
The 120ST is a great value for a rich field scope when I use my Televue Everbright diagonal with UWA (80deg AFOV)30mm eyepiece or as a low light spotting scope with 45 deg erect image 2" WO diagonal. The 120ST OTA cost less than a 16mm T5 eyepiece and uses the same diagonals,binoviewer and eyepieces that I use on my other scopes so it's worth it for me.
-------------------- Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
|
edwincjones
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4419
|
|
"$14 grand for a 25x150 is just as crazy"
I do not know about that-Mr Bill and I just returned from a week at New Mexico Skies with their mag 7+ skies and his big binoculars. The views of the Sag star cloud, dark nebula, Omega Centauri, Centauri A, Bernards Galaxy, and other eye candy was great.
The fujinon 25x150 MTs run at $6 grand plus mount-for 14 you get the ED glass and 45 degree eps.
edj
--------------------
n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
|
Joe Ogiba
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3358
Loc: NJ USA
|
|
I wrote that in reply to the quote "To me buliding a 120mmST binoscope but limiting it to 15 or 30X because of CA is hardly making best use of the large objectives." There is nothing wrong with 100-150mm binoculars with 6mm exit pupil IMHO.
-------------------- Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
|
patter1
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/19/05
Posts: 597
Loc: Canada
|
|
I suspect that in a homemade bino scope/ bino box, you'll run into magnification limitations brought on by mechanical alignment & rigidity problems before limitations due to chromatic aberration in the objectives.
If it was homemade, I'd probably be content with 30x maximum magnification. More would be nice, but I think it's fair to say that bino scopes are usually intended for leisurely scanning and observing at low to mid mags anyways.
-------------------- Patrick
8" f/6 NewStar dobsonian
Orion Starblast 4.5" f/4 mini dobsonian
42mm SuperView, 17mm Nagler T4, some other cheapies
Omcon 7x50, Oberwerk 11x56, Olympus DPS-R 7x35, Olympus Magellan 8x25
homemade 50mm right-angle bino-scope prototype
|
cota_scope
sage
   
Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 356
Loc: sioux city ia
|
|
with my home made 120 f5 binos i get 16 to about 60 power,most of the time i use 25 power, john
Edited by cota_scope (05/30/06 08:45 AM)
|
BoyntonStu
sage
Reged: 01/22/06
Posts: 263
|
|
Looks like a lot of thought and work went into this.
How much mag can each OTA give?
Is the EP configuration from binoculars?
Are they the limiting factor?
Stu
|
cota_scope
sage
   
Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 356
Loc: sioux city ia
|
|
made from 2 orion 120mm f5 OTA, 2 binocular bodys with high index wide angle prisms,used 2" barrels and 1 1/4" eyepiece holders on the binocular body,collimation is done with large rear ring on left side with 3 large nylon screws
Edited by cota_scope (05/30/06 09:16 AM)
|
Joad
Wordsmith
   
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11919
|
|
|
refractory
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 02/05/05
Posts: 1014
|
|
Note the neat handlebars- how many speeds? Does it have a BELL ? KCHINGNG! Next project: The Bi(no)cycle.
Jess Tauber
|
patter1
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/19/05
Posts: 597
Loc: Canada
|
|
Is the 60x mag limit by choice (no need or want to go higher), or is that about where mechanical alignment issues or chromatic aberration starts to become problematic?
Quote:
Note the neat handlebars- how many speeds? Does it have a BELL ? KCHINGNG! Next project: The Bi(no)cycle.

-------------------- Patrick
8" f/6 NewStar dobsonian
Orion Starblast 4.5" f/4 mini dobsonian
42mm SuperView, 17mm Nagler T4, some other cheapies
Omcon 7x50, Oberwerk 11x56, Olympus DPS-R 7x35, Olympus Magellan 8x25
homemade 50mm right-angle bino-scope prototype
|
cota_scope
sage
   
Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 356
Loc: sioux city ia
|
|
have no higher power eyepieces
|
Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2551
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
|
|
Stu,
I had a great deal of interest in the 120mmF5 ST a while back. I have had a Celestron 80mm F5 ST for nearly 20 years and like it a lot. It's my grab and go scope when I want higher power than my 20X80 or 25X100 bino. I can reach 80X+ with a 2 X barlow. A low cost 600mm Short Tube with more than twice the light collecting area of my 80mm was very attractive to me. I Read every report about them I could find. Including the CN report you quoted above. Here is another point of view:
http://cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=483
Same scope by Synta, different paint job. You can go right to the optics/performance and conclusion.
David N wrote many of the equipment reviews in CN's early years. I read all of them. He owned many Bincoular Ultras and APOs most of us dream about....
Erik D
|
John F
sage
Reged: 02/16/04
Posts: 308
Loc: Washington State
|
|
QUOTE: Many people would not want to invest four or five times that amount for a premium binoviewer+ EPs to transform a 120mmF5 into a 20X85 binocular. >
Well pointed out , Erik .
For emphasis -- NOT MANY people would consider doing such a thing !
Kenny
Kenny,
That's true. However, the logic for doing so is quite compelling in my opinion. I've attached a picture of my binoviewer equipped NP-127. Note the size (and ease of use) of the system which is most unusual for a 5-inch refractor.
In monoview mode this system it able to take full advantage of its 127mm of aperture and it is capable of yielding a true field of 4.00 degrees at 16x and it is capable of performing very well at any other magnification up to 264x.
Then when you add a binoviewer to it is capable of being used at magnifications ranging from 19x - 264x. The eyepieces that I currently use with my NP-127 and TV Bino Vue give me the following magnification options: 26x, 38x, 55x, 83x, 120x & 189x. To be sure, when this scope is used in binoview mode, the light it collects (i.e., 329 times more than a dark adapted human eye) has to be split between the two eyepieces and this has the effect of reducing the effective aperture of this scope (as a binoviewing system) to 90mm.
So when I binoview with this system it is like using a 26x90, or 38x90, or 55x90 binocular. But how many other binoculars have eyepieces that perform at the level of Tele Vue Panoptics and Naglers with respect to field width, field sharpess and overall field quality? Also, how many other binoculars are as abberation free as a system like this? Also, how many other binoculars can give you crisp binoviews of the planets at powers ranging from 80x - 264x?
So with one system (i.e., optical instrument, tripod & mount) the NP-127 gives me a world class 5-inch apo refractor of unsurpassed portability and versatility. Plus, when used in binoview mode at 26x, 38x & 55x it gives me a great (and very cost effective) alternative to the Kowa Highlander and when used at 100x - 264x it provides a high quality/high power lunar and planetary binoviewing capability that no binocular can I'm aware of can match or surpass. There may be some binoscopes that can outperform it in the high power range but they will of necessity be much larger and heavier systems.
Several years ago when I still had an NP-101 I strongly considered getting the Kowa Highlander with the 21x, 32x & 50x eyepieces options. The reasons that I decided to my NP-101/Bino Vue system to an NP-127 was (a) My telescope would be improved from a NP-101 to an NP-127. (b) My Tele Vue eyepiece set would work with the NP-127 in both mono and binoview modes. (c) At 26x, 38x & 55x a binoviewed NP-127 would essentially give me the capabilities of the Kowa Highlander, and at 83x - 189x it would go far beyond it. (d) This option was less expensive (for me) than going the Kowa Highlander route. (e) And last and perhaps the most important to me, I could have all of these capabilities in one system.
In addition to being able to have room for my telescope, binoviewer and eyepieces in my car, I also have to have room for my binoculars, binocular mounts, tent, sleeping bag, extra warm cloths, food, etc. when I go on overnight or multi-night observing trips. While I may be willing to spend big bucks to get the finest optics I can (within a reasonably portable size range), I'm not will to spend many thousands more for a larger SUV, truck or RV (all of which would get lousy gas mileage relative to my Honda CR-V) so as to be able to haul more astronomy gear. I'm going on my third year now with this NP-127 binoviewing system I'm very pleased with it and plan to keep it for rest of my observing life or unless/until I feel the need to downsize to a smaller and lighter telescope like the TV-85.
Anyway, to conclude, not many people will opt to go the route I did (if for no other reason than it is still quite expensive), but it does have real advantages to it and especially so for someone who is looking to minimize how much gear they have to deal with (without compromsing any essential observing requirements).
John Finnan
-------------------- Leica 7x42 Ultravid
Nikon 7x50 Prostar
Swarovski 8.5x42 EL
Nikon 10x70 Astroluxe
Leica 12x50 Ultravid
Zeiss 15x60 B/GAT
Takahashi 22x60 Astronomer
NP-127 w/Bino Vue
|
DJB
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 1267
|
|
Hi John,
You have a beautiful observing site there. I have always assumed Washington state has a lot of rain.
I'm about 30 miles north of Binghamton, NY., Bingo town, as we affectionately call her, or worse sometimes, rated third for the number of cloudy days; this was approx. five years ago. That's third from number one for the MOST clouds! As I recall, Seattle ranked number one. Number two was....I do not remember.
Your sky looks beautiful. OT, but how many clear nights, the really good ones, do you enjoy in a typical year?
Regards, Dave.
|
refractory
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 02/05/05
Posts: 1014
|
|
Betcha he had to outsource for that blue sky.
Jess Tauber
|
BoyntonStu
sage
Reged: 01/22/06
Posts: 263
|
|
John,
What a difference a few words make.
"So with one system (i.e., optical instrument, tripod & mount)"
Any non-held binocular IMO is a 'system'.
Your bino-viewer 127 is a great combination for an astronomy system.
OTOH It does not give correct images or stereo vision for terrestrial viewing.
For much less money you could use a pair of 80 apos or 120 Achros with Matsumoto EMS instead of a bino-viewer or a homebuilt bino-box version. No sharing the light.
Stu
|