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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14682
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Help me spend my hard-earned money!
I have outgrown my Celestron Skymaster 25x100 binoculars. Simply put,
they have served me relatively well over the last 13 months or so, but the
time has come to upgrade to a binocular with better optical quality. The
Skymaster is far from ideal in terms of coatings, glass, and build. While I
would love to purchase a giant Fuji, Kowa, or Miyauchi binocular, they
will remain outside my price-range for many years to come. Unwilling to
wait 20+ years until I retire to own a satisfying binocular, I am willing to
make compromises (again) to achieve a significant step in the right
direction. I am looking for the following criteria in a new binocular :
1) A budget of no more than $450.00
2) "Giant class" aperture of 80mm or more. I would prefer 100mm of
aperture, but if it means better optics, I will step down to a 80 or 85mm
binocular.
3) Magnification of 20-25x, with a usuable FOV of ~ 2.5 to 3 degrees.
4) SHARP optics out to 80% (or better) of the stated FOV. I prefer
a binocular that is properly baffled (not unbaffled like my Skymaster).
I would also prefer a binocular with less flaring than the average
Chinese giant bino. If possible I want nice pin-points on all but the
brightest of targets. Truly over-sized prisms would be nice.
5) Generous eye relief. I wear glasses while observing and I would
like to take in all of the usuable field.
6) IPD is not a concern, I do not have very wide or very narrow IPD.
7) Weight or size of the binocular is not a concern, since I already have
a robust mount and tripod.
After a lot of research, I have reluctantly ruled out the following binoculars :
1) Steiner Observer 25x80mm - a nice binocular recommended by almost
every person who owns one. Unfortunately, it resides well outside my
budget by a margin of $200+ dollars. This is a deal breaker. However, I
will keep my eyes open for a clearance or sale of some kind between
now and X-mas.
2) Garrett Optical 30x100IF - a tempting binocular that is within budgetary
reach, but has somewhat-short eye relief and a narrow FOV. I have
reservations about my ability to take in the entire field while wearing
my glasses.
3) Orion Megaview 30x80mm - another tempting binocular, this one
with Japanese optics. But the price is well outside my range and
the stated eye relief of 14mm probably means a usuable ER of ~12mm,
which is a little short for me. Currently there is a "second" or blemish
model for sale at a discount on the Orion website. If a deal like that
arises around X-mas, then I might be tempted to give this binocular
another look.
4) Celestron, Barksa, Zhumell, Apogee, Orion Explorer, and other
low or mid price point giant binoculars are ruled out because they
all share very similar performance characteristics common to
Chinese big binoculars : less than FMC on all surfaces, less-than-sharp
optics, and/or inconsistent QC (quality control) .
So, bearing all of that mind, here is what I have narrowed my personal
list down to :
Stellarvue 20x85 ($289.00) - reported to have sharper optics than the
average Chinese giant binocular. This is due in part (according to
Stellarvue website spec) to superior baffling and stopped-down
over-sized objectives. Build quality is also reported to be excellent.
Vic Maris and Stellarvue represent quality optics and have a good
reputation. How I WISH that Stellarvue would offer a 100mm
binocular for ~$400 or $500!
Oberwerk 25x100IF ($399.00) - reported to be among the best of
current market of giant Chinese binoculars. Acceptably sharp
optics, superior coatings, and a quality build. All backed up by Kevin
Busarow's excellent customer service. I've had my eye on this
binocular for a long time, and it might be time to finally pull the
trigger.
Garrett Gemini 25x100 ($369.95) - an up and coming vendor of
Chinese-made binoculars with a reputation of excellent
QC. They have a bonafide binocular "expert" on staff and they
have real collimating equipment that many competitors lack.
It is my impression, based on the reviews, that this binocular is
equal to the Oberwerk 25x100IF in nearly all respects.
These are the three contenders at this point. I am open to suggestions
for binoculars that I have overlooked. However -
1) no telescope suggestions. I have finally matured enough as an
observer to truly understand what I want and what I like to view.
I like wide-field, low power scans of star fields, open clusters,
comets, nebulae, and the moon (in that order). I have little
interest in planetary observing, globulars, or galaxies. My heart
belongs to binoculars and there is no room at this time for a scope.
2) no "wait and save up some more money for premium binocular X"
My stated price ceiling of $450 will remain the same from now until
I retire. That is how much discretionary spending the spousal overlord
unit will approve - after much spirited negotiation. It's not a simple
matter of financial wherewithwal because technically I COULD afford
upwards of $600 or $700, but it won't happen in a million years under
the reign of the overlord unit.
Ok, so there you have it. I humbly ask anyone and everyone for
their input on this matter. Help me spend my money!
Thanks and clear dark skies...
MikeG
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11919
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As the resident "buy a telescope" raven, I will stop croaking and endorse either the Obie or the Garret 100s you list here. You already have a 70mm and you've seen what 100mm can do.
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pcad
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 1500
Loc: Connecticut
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Mike,
Any of those three should be fine. I lean towards the Oberwerk and the Garrett because since you're already using a 100mm instrument.
If you can belive the UO site, 85mm and 110mm versions of the Oberwerk Ultra series may someday be available. With the 70mm @ $350, the 85mm may fall inside your budget constraints. We'll have to wait and see if "cota scope" reviews the unit he purchased recently. I think the 110mm version will definately be outside your budget.
Good luck with your bino shopping!
Peter
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Peter
Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x
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Rick
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2573
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Mike, the rainy season here has me in an equipment selling mood. How about buying my Fujinon's? 
cheers,
Rick
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www.japanastro.com
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Art Fritzson
sage
Reged: 01/29/05
Posts: 315
Loc: Northern Virginia, USA
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Mike,
The Garrett 25x100s I have are terrific DSO binocs, but I'm not sure they'll give you that big an improvement over the Skymasters. Since you're thinking early Christmas shopping, I'll second Peter's suggestion that you consider waiting for a review on the (hopefully soon to be available) Ultra 85s.
- Art
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2006 "Bagging on a Budget" Award for Excellence in Binocular Astronomy
Garrett 25x100 IF, Oberwerk 15x70, Celestron Noble 10x50, Meade 10x50 and 8x42 Travelviews
William Optics Zenithstar II 80mm APO
Teleport 10" - an incredible all-in-one Planetary/DSO/"Grab and Go"
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CESDewar
GorillAstronomer
Reged: 01/16/05
Posts: 1811
Loc: Morganton, GA, USA
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Quote:
Oberwerk 25x100IF ($399.00)
There won't be many people who have tried out ALL the binoculars on the list, so you'll likely have to deal with people's personal experience with one or two binoculars.
I have the Oberwerk 25x100IF binoculars and I can certainly say that you will not be disappointed with these. I also have the Miyauchi Saturn III's and need to say that at some six times the price, we are not talking about six times better! Yes, you may have seen some posts from me talking about how great the Saturn III's are, but if so, you may have also noticed concurrent posts talking about what an excellent value the 25x100IF's are - providing 75% of the observing pleasure (maybe more?) for less than 15% of the cost - THAT's value. You will see a definite improvement in quality with the 25x100 IF's over the Celestron's, but don't expect miracles - most of the improvement will come with less rapid falloff of image quality as you move away from the center point. Personally, I would stick with 100mm Binos as light gathering power is important and you indicate the mount is not an issue.
However, you also indicate you have a "mount" and tripod but there's no indication what kind of mount you have. I find that using straight-thru binoculars on a standard type mount on a tripod to be a bit of a killer - a pmount is such a huge improvement, although they are expensive. I have a UA Pmount rated up to 10lbs. that I used with the 25x100's and while it was at the limit, it was eminently usable and provided easy viewing all the way to the Zenith from an appropriate chair (I used a suntracker, swivel type chair with it). So if you ARE craning your neck to look through a regular mount, I would give serious consideration to a p-mount unless you do most of your observing far from the Zenith, or have an unusually articulate spine  Given a choice between having the Celestron's on a p-mount vs. the 25x100IF's on a conventional tripod setup, I would definitely opt for the former, but then again, comfort while viewing is important to me!
All indications are that the Garrett Gemini's would be indistinguishable, so much may depend on other issues like support (Kevin has earned an excellent reputation for good reason and it's nice to know if you do run into a problem that you won't get stuck with a lemon).
Good news is that you aren't going to go wrong on any of the choices here. I would tend to shy away from any used binos unless you are close enough to inspect them and test them out ahead of time.
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DJB
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 1267
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Hi Mike,
It seems as tho you might be willing to take a small step backwards. I really am sorry that the Skymasters did not work out as well as you expected. I know, from your posts, that you put great effort into that baby to make it right.
If you want something unusual, you can EM me privately, although I would not recommend doing so, because I do not believe that I have what you are looking for. Just a thought
Best regards,
Dave.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12565
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Stellarvue 20x85
Oberwerk 25x100IF
Garrett Gemini 25x100
As far as I know, the SV20x85 is a 20x90 except that they put a 5mm ring in front of the objective to mask the edge.
The Oberwerk 25x100 and the Garrett 25x100 are basically the same binocular.
The SV seems to be from the same family of binoculars as these two. the Ooberwerk 20x90 is not a member of this family.
So basically you have given yourself two choices from the same family and you are willing to consider two sizes.
Quote:
Magnification of 20-25x, with a usuable FOV of ~ 2.5 to 3 degrees.
SHARP optics out to 80% (or better) of the stated FOV.
These are really the same question.
First of all, many binoculars usable fov is only about 70%-80% of the total fov (some even less), so potentially, none of the above can meet this criteria. The Oberwerk 25x100, which is pretty good in this respect, if you consider that 80% of the field is sharp, has a usable field of view of 2.0°. Even the GO 20x80, starting out with a full field of 2.9° and sharp at 80% has only 2.3° usable.
Quote:
I prefer a binocular that is properly baffled (not unbaffled like my Skymaster).
None of these binoculars you mentioned are internally baffled (that I know of). The insides of the barrels are coated with non-reflective material to cut down or eliminate reflections off the inside of the barrel, but there are no baffle rings. The Fujinon 16x70 has 1 internal baffle. The BT100 has 5 internal baffles.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14682
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Joad - I always give your words 110% consideration, whether they involve buying a scope or not. Bearing in mind that you own an Oberwerk product that you find very satisfactory, I give your endorsement of Obie considerable weight.
Peter - I'm thinking the same thing about that new Obie "Ultra" line. I too am anxiously awaiting Cota-Scope's impressions and review. The Ultra model line sounds like it could be the much-wished-for "Have you cake and eat it too" binocular. Japanese-type sharp optics for Chinese prices. If an 20x80-90mm version hits the market between now and X-mas, then I will give that a serious look.
Rick - Those Fujinons have tight ER, right? At least I think I recall hearing that. I guess if anything would hold collimation on the long, bumpy ride from Japan to the USA, it would be a Fuji. The Fuji 16x70 is the standard of big binocular quality, but it lacks the magnification and aperture I ultimately crave.
Art - Your own, and EdZ', impressions of the Garrett line (all of them, not just the big 100's), have put Garrett squarely on my radar screen. In my mind, they are the slightly-cheaper Obie with bino-guru and a Mark-V. This is another bino (the 25x100IF) that I may pull the trigger on.
CES - your endorsement of the Obie 25x100IF carries metric-tons of weight in my view. Firstly, you own an impressive array of instruments and gear that says you recognize quality gear when you see it, and you can also afford it. Secondly, the fact that you can afford a Denk'ed out Televue 127, and yet you also own a $400 Oberwerk binocular speaks volumes for the quality of the Obie 25x100IF. If that binocular in any way failed to perform adequately, you would have gotten rid of it long ago. Lastly, you are a veteran observer who knows astronomy in and out - and you recommend these binoculars. And to answer your question about my mount, I own a parallelogram mount which I enjoy greatly. A formal review of the mount has been submitted to CN and will hopefully appear soon.
DJB - I think I know what you are offering, you mentioned them in another thread. A vintage pair of Japanese binoculars would be interesting and perhaps appropriate. If the optics were razor-sharp, I would be willing to step down 5x in magnification and 20mm in aperture (but nothing less than that) ...
EdZ - If I give CESDewar's recommendations "metric tons of weight", then I give your's a heaping tablespoon full of neutron-star material. You have owned or evaluated almost every big binocular worthy of mention, including most of those on my list. Your level of knowledge when it comes to optical theory, astronomy, and mathematics never ceases to impress. So I want to address each of the points you raised in reply, because this exchange will be firmly in mind months from now when I am clicking the mouse and ordering a new binocular.
First, let's pick apart this SV 20x85 and engage in some speculative analysis :
Quote:
the 20X85 uses oversized fully multi-coated objectives, deep light baffles, enormous individual focus wide field eyepieces, BAK 4 prisms.
That's a quote from the Stellarvue website. It refers to "deep light baffles", which would seem to imply (at least to my limited experience) that this binocular has some sort of baffling beyond the usual threaded/tacky/black interior coating seen in most competitors. Does
anyone care to comment on this? Is this another example of "optimisitic" vendor specs? (Am I reading too much into that phrase?)
Quote:
As far as I know, the SV20x85 is a 20x90 except that they put a 5mm ring in front of the objective to mask the edge.
I tried masking down my 25x100 Skymaster to 25x80 and I did not notice any significant improvement in performance. Of course, this was a casual experiment carried out by a novice, but I did investigate far enough to judge that there was no noticeable improvement in edge sharpness or flaring.
So, masking down a 90mm to an 85mm objective is going to accomplish what exactly? How much real noticeable improvement is this going to make at 20x in terms of edge sharpness, CA, and optical aberrations like flaring? If such a minor stopping-down of the aperture as 5mm can make a
difference, would I not be better served to purchase an Oberwerk 25x100IF and mask it down myself to a 25x90IF or 25x85IF? Would I see a similar alleged improvement as the SV 20x85IF (aka Obie 20x90) ?
If the reviews are to be taken at face value, that the SV 20x85 has nicer "points" for stars and somewhat less flaring, then can this all be explained by a simple 5mm objective mask? Surely there must be other factors at work : better lens polishing, over-sized prisms, better coatings, better eyepieces, etc. Any comments here would be appreciated.
Quote:
Our new extremely wide angle eyepieces are fully multi-coated and provide razor sharp detail across the field. These large eyepieces, specifically designed for these binoculars, provide the highest levels of contrast and performance in their price range. Each eyepiece has a rubber eyecup that can be rolled down for eyeglass wearers.
Again, from the Stellarvue website. This would imply, to me, that the eyepieces in the SV 20x85 might be different spec than the Obie 20x90 eyepieces. If so, this could be factor in field sharpness and edge performance. I would really like to hear from someone who has evaluated the SV 20x85 on this one.
Quote:
Objectives: We use oversized objective lenses with highly accurate figure and polish to deliver the highest level of performance. The use of oversized objectives allows for better performance at the aperture we specify and enables the use of deeper light baffles, further enhancing contrast.
Again, another reference to "deeper light baffles" which means exactly what? If not rings, then?
I am intrigued by this SV 20x85, obviously. But what I am trying to discern is whether the SV 20x85 has some design improvements that I cannot implement myself in an Oberwerk 25x100IF. If the SV model has baffle rings and better eyepieces (and possibly better polishing and coatings), then I would lean towards purchasing the SV. If the only difference between the SV 20x85 and the Obie 20x90 is a 5mm aperture mask, then I would lean towards purchasing an Obie 25x100IF and masking it down myself.
Thanks and clear dark skies...
MikeG
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
Edited by Glassthrower (05/30/06 01:58 PM)
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12565
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
So, masking down a 90mm to an 85mm objective is going to accomplish what exactly? How much real noticeable improvement is this going to make at 20x in terms of edge sharpness, CA, and optical aberrations like flaring?
Noticable Improvement in
CA - Almost negligable. The mask would change a f/4.5 binocular to f/4.75. the longitudinal CA would almost not change at all. Lateral CA, if any, is caused by the eyepieces, so this wouldn't change at all.
Edge sharpness - is mostly due to the design of the eyepieces. Minimal masking for the most part does not change edge sharpness. Edge sharpness gets worse in the presence of astigmatism and coma.
Optical Aberrations - here masking the outer 5mm of the lens may be of some help. Most likely with any potential spherical aberration, which is a displacement of the rays along the length of the optical axis. With SA, rays originating in the objective lens further off axis do not reach the same focus point as on-axis rays. If SA is present, even on-axis images may look considerably soft and no amount of refocusing or flattener will help to improve. This is noticed by the telltale cannot focus to a fine pinpoint image. The best you can achieve is focusing on what is known as a least circle of confusion or a small spot rather than a fine pinpoint. If you remove some of the off axis rays, you may be able to reduce SA.
I don't think it would do much to eliminate astigmatism or coma.
Quote:
would I not be better served to purchase an Oberwerk 25x100IF and mask it down myself to a 25x90IF or 25x85IF? Would I see a similar alleged improvement as the SV 20x85IF (aka Obie 20x90) ?
Masking the Obie 25x100 to 25x90 would change the binocular from f/4.85 to f/5.4. Masking to 85mm would give f/5.7, a significant change in f#. This would begin to have some potential impact on reducing several aberrations.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
Edited by EdZ (05/30/06 02:31 PM)
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10142
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Mike ,
First let me say that I REALLY DO empathise with your plight .
When you did this :
< I tried masking down my 25x100 Skymaster to 25x80 and I did not notice any significant improvement in performance.>
Did you notice any SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION in what you DID see , which you would wholly attribute to aperture reduction , and if so , -- what ?
Perhaps you may not have been specifically looking for such effects at the time -- but it's something you could try again as often as you wish so long as you have the Skymasters and the mask .
I'm just thinking that MAYBE -- just MAYBE -- you COULD get away in the interim with 80mm - 85mm aperture binoculars .
Put another way -- I bet if someone offered to straight swap their 82mm Kowa Highlanders for your 100mm Celestron Skymasters , your mind would be made up quicker than you could actually say the word " YES " ! :-)
Regards , Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12565
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Some info in these posts
S/V B85
Stellarvue masking
especially this second one
Don't compare the SV 20x85 to the Obie 20x90. Thes are different model style binoculars.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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jkevn
super member
Reged: 03/02/06
Posts: 175
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
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In my experience with binoculars dealers, I've found that there is some difference in opinion about what constitutes "good customer service". No matter how easy it is to get an exchange or refund, no matter how willing the vendor is to pay shipping back and forth, even several times, I'd rather deal with a vendor who has good quality control and delivers what I asked for the first time. There are not a lot of binoculars vendors who understand collimation very well. When I ask for good convergence, unclipped, perfectly round exit pupils and well matched fields of view, that's what I expect to find when I receive the binoculars the first time. My vote goes to Garrett.
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14682
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Kenny -
I still have the masks laying around somewhere...I think...I hope. I'll have to look, because I want to try again for purely the sake of curiosity. I made three pairs of masks in increments under 100mm but greater than 70mm. I don't recall right now, I will have to check my notes and older posts. But I do not recall any noticeable improvement until I stopped down to 80mm or more. Stopping down to 90 did nothing that was noticeable.
Would I stop down my current Skymasters to 80mm, improve the f/ratio accordingly, and get a better view? Perhaps. But, I am still going to upgrade because the Skymaster prisms are single coated, the eyepieces appear to be single coated as well. The objectives are multi-coated, but I doubt the coating quality is equal/better than the Oberwerk, Garrett, or Stellarvue. Also, the build quality of the Skymaster does not stand up favorably against the others.
I just measured the eye lens of my 25x100mm Skymaster and it measures less than 1 inch (3/4" exactly) from the inside rim of the rubber eyecup (rolled back) to the other inside rim. Outside edge of cup to opposite side edge of cup is ~1.6 inches. The Stellarvue specs (and SV Yahoo group posts from Vic) state the SV 20x85 uses "2-inch wide field" eyepieces. Craig Simmons also states in an older CN forum post, that the eyepieces on the SV 20x85 are different than those on the Obie 20x90. He also states that the body appears to be different.
EdZ correctly states that edge performance is more effectively improved at the eyepiece end of the light path. So, if SV does indeed use different eyepieces than the other mass-market Chinese import clones, one may assume that Vic Maris and Stellarvue are going to use better eyepieces if they go through the trouble of changing spec.
With a 5mm aperture mask on the objective end, over-sized prisms that can fully accomodate the light cones, better eyepieces which give a sharper field with better edge performance, internal baffling(?), top-spec lens polishing (as per all Stellarvue glass), and top-spec coatings (again, as per all Stellarvue glass) - this might account for the claims and reviews which state the Stellarvue 20x85 has "better" views than competing binoculars of similar configuration.
This is what I am obsessing about and in the end, I will probably email Stellarvue or Vic himself and see if they will humor me as well as the fine folks in this forum have.
Thanks for the links EdZ, those were very helpful.
MikeG
BTW -
Quote:
bet if someone offered to straight swap their 82mm Kowa Highlanders for your 100mm Celestron Skymasters , your mind would be made up quicker than you could actually say the word " YES " ! :-)
My decision would be faster than light! 
--------------------
Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
Edited by Glassthrower (05/30/06 03:43 PM)
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12565
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
I just measured the eye lens of my 25x100mm Skymaster and it measures less than 1 inch (3/4" exactly) from the inside rim of the rubber eyecup (rolled back) to the other inside rim. Outside edge of cup to opposite side edge of cup is ~1.6 inches. The Stellarvue specs (and SV Yahoo group posts from Vic) state the SV 20x85 uses "2-inch wide field" eyepieces. Craig Simmons also states in an older CN forum post, that the eyepieces on the SV 20x85 are different than those on the Obie 20x90. He also states that the body appears to be different.
EdZ correctly states that edge performance is more effectively improved at the eyepiece end of the light path. So, if SV does indeed use different eyepieces than the other mass-market Chinese import clones, one may assume that Vic Maris and Stellarvue are going to use better eyepieces if they go through the trouble of changing spec.
With a 5mm aperture mask on the objective end, over-sized prisms that can fully accomodate the light cones, better eyepieces which give a sharper field with better edge performance, internal baffling(?), top-spec lens polishing (as per all Stellarvue glass), and top-spec coatings (again, as per all Stellarvue glass) - this might account for the claims and reviews which state the Stellarvue 20x85 has "better" views than competing binoculars of similar configuration.
The Obie 20x90 and the SV 20x85 are from two completely different families, not the same model. Don't compare.
Actually, to me it looks like the SV85 and SV63 uses the standard eyepieces on the GO Gemini Series and the Obie 25x100 IF. Nowhere in SV specs does it state it uses 2" eyepieces. The specs work out to standard 64° Afov eyepieces, a typical Afov eyepiece used on many binoculars. Don't compare to the Afov/Tfov reported on the Garret Optical website. Zach is reporting the actual field tested results. After I tested the Garrett 20x80, Zach changed the Tfov on his website to reflect the results that I got when field testing.
http://www.stellarvue.com/binoculars.html
http://www.garrettoptical.com/
http://www.bigbinoculars.com/25100m.htm
It would appear to me that all of these binoculars belong to this same family. Note that the entire line is available with both center focus or IF.
http://www.united-optics.com/products/ast-series/astr-s-3/astr-s-3.htm
Frankly, I did not read a single thing on the SV description page which specifically states that SV uses anything custom that they do to this binocular, other than the mask. Highly accurate figure and polish is the same level of objective lens quality employed in the Garrett and Oberwerk model of same family. Same with oversize prisms and eyepieces designed specifically for this binocular.
edz
Edited by EdZ (05/30/06 04:52 PM)
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Penarin
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/22/04
Posts: 1115
Loc: Orion, IL
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Oberwerk 25x100IF
I just had mine out for their first serious (2hr +) run. I wear glasses, and the eye relief on the Obies is just fine. I found them to be very comfortable to use with the eyeguards rolled back, and could take in the whole FOV.
The dark green coatings on these are very impressive. Up front, looking at the reflection I could see the outline of my face, but no details. I wish my refractor had coatings like that!
Edge sharpness is quite nice. I spent some time with M44, and moved the cluster back and forth a few times across the FOV. The view was great no matter where I parked the Obies.
I've also been very happy with the overall build quality.
Now I've never used the Celestron 25x100s, so I'm not sure how much of an improvement you would see, but I am 100% satisfied with my 25x100IFs.
Good luck with your decision.
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Meade 6" f/8 refractor
Orion Atlas (EQ6) mount
Oberwerk 25 x 100IF
Pentax 10x50 PCF WP II
Orion Outsider 8 x 40 WA
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Rick
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2573
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Quote:
No matter how easy it is to get an exchange or refund, no matter how willing the vendor is to pay shipping back and forth, even several times, I'd rather deal with a vendor who has good quality control and delivers what I asked for the first time.
I couldn't agree more.
Mike, I think the next "step up" would be either angled ocular 100mm bino OR a 6" refractor on a fork mount OR a 8" F6 dob. Given your budget, that pretty much eliminates the binos.
Anything less, and I feel you will experience more letdown than "wow". I suspect your disappointment with the SkyMasters has more to do with local seeing conditions than the binocular. Otherwise, you would have seen some definite improvement when you stopped down their aperture.
clear skies,
Rick
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www.japanastro.com
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12565
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
I suspect your disappointment with the SkyMasters has more to do with local seeing conditions than the binocular. Otherwise, you would have seen some definite improvement when you stopped down their aperture.
clear skies,
Rick
Rick, I might agree with your first sentence, but not necessarily with the second. Stopped down aperture reduces exit pupil, and doesn't make it any easier to see faint extended objects, so no help there. It won't necessarily help you see closer doubles, unless of course you stop down considerably to improve point image and you are observing doubles at the limit of the magnification. If most of the aberrations are caused by the eyepieces, you can stop down all you want, it won't help.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14682
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Quote:
Actually, to me it looks like the SV85 and SV63 uses the standard eyepieces on the GO Gemini Series and the Obie 25x100 IF. Nowhere in SV specs does it state it uses 2" eyepieces.
I misinterpeted what Vic Maris said in his SV-Yahoo group post. He compares the bino-eps to Stellarvue's 2" widefield scope eyepieces, that is all. The mistaken assumption is mine. Sorry. In your opinion, do you consider the eyepieces in this example (Garrett Gemini and Obie 25x100IF) to be of good quality? And given that you have evaluated a Celestron Skymaster 25x100, how would you compare the ep quality between the Garrett/Obie and the Celestron? Is there any difference other than the Garrett/Obie is FMC and the Skymaster is single-coated?
Quote:
Highly accurate figure and polish is the same level of objective lens quality employed in the Garrett and Oberwerk model of same family.
You are not a man known to make assumptions, so I must ask if this statement is an assumption. Or is this statement the product of observation and evaluation? Is there any way we can know for sure what the various levels of figure and polish that the manufacturer offers really are?
Rick - I am allergic to eyepieces, ep bolt cases, filters, barlows, chesires, finders, diagonals, setting circles, battery-powered widgets, and the wagon-full of accessories that comes with scope ownership. Just thinking about it all gives me a headache. I'm just not in the market for a scope of any kind, and I am thinking of scrapping my 60mm EQ refractor project to focus (mentally and financially) on my binocular quest. An angled ocular 100mm Miyauchi bino would be ideal - at least then I am limited to a few proprietary ep sets and I don't have to face the bewildering array of aftermarket accessories. I like the simplicity of bino-observing and I have adjusted my viewing habits accordingly (and to suit my local skies) - galaxies and globs are off the list for the forseeable future.
More and more I am intrigued by the SV 20x85mm it has moved to the top of my radar.
My list is now :
1) wait for developments on the Oberwerk Ultra Series. If a 20x80, 22x80, 22x85, 20x110 or whatever comes out between now and X-mas, then that gets first look.
2) Stellarvue 20x85mm - price and reputation mostly. I plan on emailing Vic/Stellarvue soon and asking some direct questions. Hopefully I will get some answers.
3) Oberwerk/Garrett 25x100IF - basically the same binocular, the only difference is ~$30 in price. I may attempt to mask one of these down to 25x85 and see what it does for sharpness, crisp focus, and CA. This may turn out to be my solution if #1 does not materialize (a 15x70 is not enough, no matter how razor sharp) or #2 if Stellarvue's 20x80 is nothing more than another clone with a 5mm aperture mask placed on it before delivery.
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10142
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Just to clarify the main intention of my earlier suggestion to Mike to look again at the effects of stopping down .
It was NOT to imply that I thought for one moment that the Celestron Skymasters could in some way be " rescued from it's imminent sentence to the mists of misty memories but occasional yellow - haloed fruitfulness " but rather to prompt Mike to re - evaluate his apparant long - standing fascination with sheer SIZE ( of objectives ) .
To MY eyes , and mind , there is FAR more to what goes into providing VISUAL and MENTAL satisfaction from looking through binoculars than what can be measured by cold , hard facts , expressable only by numerical notation .
To use an analogy , I was once a passenger in 1960s Ford Anglia motor car which had originally been designed for a top speed of around 65 mph .
This particular specimen had undergone an engine replacement and a few other devilish alterations which rendered it capable of reaching 130 mph .
One night , it's owner / driver was keen to exhibit the wondrous effects of this transformation whilst I was seated in the front passenger seat .
I've rarely felt so frightened in my life , and although there WAS a certain THRILL about going well over " the ton " in it ( especially as a teenager ) the experience was FAR less pleasurable than cruising along at 90mph in another friend's Toyota Celica some 20 years later .
There's a common saying " Never mind the quality -- feel the width "
I find the opposite to be more often rewarding .
" Never mind the WIDTH -- feel the QUALITY " !
THAT'S ALL I was TRYING to suggest --
-- most humbly , of course :-)
Kenny
Regards , Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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