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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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AnthonyP
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Reged: 02/19/06
Posts: 1070
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
AFOV vs TFOV new
      #984648 - 06/04/06 10:20 AM

With my Meade eyepieces that I have, I'm trying to figure out how much of the actual sky I can see at a given time.

Each of the EPs have an AFOV of 60 degress. Now using the 26mm as an example, I get 25x magnification with it. To calculate the TFOV I use the formula: 60 / 25 = 2.4

What does this 2.4 represent? 2.4 degrees ? If so, why is the TFOV 2.4 degrees and the AFOV 60 degrees?

--------------------
- Antares 105mm x 660mm Refractor

- Baader Hyperion 24mm
- Baader Hyperion 8mm
- Baader Hyperion 3.5mm


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mttafire
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Reged: 02/02/06
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: AnthonyP]
      #984667 - 06/04/06 10:33 AM

Good question!! i pretty sure that yes"2.4= 2.4 degrees" Im not the best to answer this though..I ask this same question recently. Thats why i love C.N's there is sooo many people on here that can help with Astronomy questions!!

--------------------
God Bless America

Binocular astronomy
for me ONLY.
8x45 Garretts
15x70 Skymasters
2 eyes!


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StarsAbove
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Reged: 09/09/05
Posts: 203
Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: AnthonyP]
      #984670 - 06/04/06 10:34 AM

The TFOV = [(EP field stop mm) divided by (scope focal length mm)] * 57.3 degrees.

This from the TeleVue website.

--------------------
David
CPC 800 XLT
102mm f/7 Achromat
41º32'N 81º32'W
http://astro.lightarts.net


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AnthonyP
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: StarsAbove]
      #984685 - 06/04/06 10:40 AM

How do I find the field stop?

--------------------
- Antares 105mm x 660mm Refractor

- Baader Hyperion 24mm
- Baader Hyperion 8mm
- Baader Hyperion 3.5mm


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novbabies
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: AnthonyP]
      #984697 - 06/04/06 10:53 AM

AFOV = apparent field of view; this is widish, 60 deg; the TFOV is the true field of view, the actual, which is 2.4 degrees

--------------------
Good Seeing!

Mark

Orion 12" XTi f/4.9


VERY old Edmund 6" f/8 reflector
Assorted binoculars


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David Knisely
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: AnthonyP]
      #985871 - 06/05/06 12:53 AM

MEASURING AND CALCULATING THE TRUE FIELD OF VIEW

Although the True Field of View of an eyepiece/telescope combination can be calculated with at least two common formulae, its actual size can only be accurately determined by using a star field of known size, or by using the star-drift method (a better choice). To use the star-drift method, take a star of known declination and, with any drive systems turned off, time exactly how long it takes for the star to go from one field edge directly through the center of the field and over to the opposite field edge. For equatorially-mounted telescopes, this can be done for any convenient star, but for altazimuthly-mounted "Dobsonians", it is a bit easier to use a star near the meridian (ie: pretty much straight south but fairly high above the southern horizon). The True Field Of View (TFOV) is then:

TFOV = 15.04*T*Cos(delta)

where "delta" is the star's declination, "Cos" is the Cosine function, and "T" is the measured drift time interval. If the time is measured in minutes, the true field will be in minutes of arc, and if the time is in seconds, the true field will be in seconds of arc. For example, if a star has a declination of 25.5 degrees (ie: 25 degrees 30 minutes), and a measured drift time of 2.75 minutes (ie: 2 minutes 45 seconds), the true field of view is then 37.3 arc minutes in diameter. For comparison, the moon's angular diameter is around 30 arc minutes (half a degree), so this eyepiece/telescope combination would just barely allow the full moon to fit in the field of the eyepiece. For stars within 3 degrees of the celestial equator, the Cosine function can be approximated to 1, and the formula becomes:

TFOV = 15.04*T (*only* for near-equatorial stars)

Alternatively, a near-equatorial timing in minutes can also be divided by 3.989 to get the true field in degrees. Some useful stars for this kind of measurement are: Zeta Aquarii, Delta Ceti, 10 Tauri, Delta Orionis, Alpha Sextantis, Zeta Virginis, Nu Aquilae, ect.

CALCULATING APPROXIMATE TRUE FIELD OF VIEW

It can also be nice to have a simple formula which can give the amateur a rough idea of what true field of view an eyepiece will give in a telescope without the amateur having to buy the eyepiece and go out to measure things. Two such formula do indeed exist: the Apparent Field of View method, and the Eyepiece Field Stop method.

1. APPARENT FIELD OF VIEW METHOD: this calculates the true angular field on the sky a telescope will show using a given eyepiece by dividing the Apparent Field of View of that eyepiece (the angular span your eye sees when looking into the eyepiece) and divides it by the magnification that eyepiece gives when used in the telescope:

TFOV = AFOV/Mag

where "AFOV" is the eyepiece apparent field of view and "Mag" is the magnification or "power" that eyepiece yields when in the telescope. For example, if an eyepiece has an apparent field of 50 degrees and yields 45x in the telescope, the true field will be approximately 1.1 degrees. Generally, with accurate Apparent Field figures, the Apparent Field of View method can often get within 10 percent of the actual true field of view on the sky. However, some eyepiece retailers or manufacturers don't always provide extremely accurate figures for their eyepieces, although many amateurs are able to measure the apparent field with simple "optical bench" setups.

2. EYEPIECE FIELD STOP METHOD: involves measuring the physical diameter of the Field Stop at the front of the eyepiece. The field stop is usually a ring or narrow baffle located just in front of the front "field" lens of the eyepiece. In some more complex wide-field designs, the field stop may be inside the front field lens between the elements, and in some less-expensive eyepieces, the field stop is the eyepiece barrel itself. The field for a given eyepiece is given by:

TFOV = (180/Pi)*EFSD/TFL

where "EFSD" is the eyepiece field stop diameter and "TFL" is the telescope's focal length. The "180/Pi" out front is just the number of degrees in a radian, so the formula can be approximated as

TFOV = 57.3*EFSD/TFL. For example, if the eyepiece has a field stop diameter of 25.40mm (1 inch), and the telescope focal length is 1410mm, the true field of view with that eyepiece will be about 1.032 degrees. Most eyepieces with 1.25 inch OD barrels will have field stop diameters of less than 28mm, while 2 inch OD barrel eyepieces will have field stops of less than 47mm. The Eyepiece Field Stop method tends to be somewhat more accurate than the Apparent Field of View method (often within two percent of the actual field on the sky) as long as an accurate value for the field stop diameter can be obtained.

Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info


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SaberScorpX
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: David Knisely]
      #985877 - 06/05/06 01:04 AM

Good stuff, David.
Had a feeling that post was coming.



Stephen Saber
PAC/Astronomical League
http://www.geocities.com/saberscorpx/home.html


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StarsAbove
sage


Reged: 09/09/05
Posts: 203
Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: AnthonyP]
      #986041 - 06/05/06 07:07 AM

Quote:

How do I find the field stop?




I use TeleVue eyepieces and they list the field stop sizes on their web site. I don't know if other manufacturers do the same.

--------------------
David
CPC 800 XLT
102mm f/7 Achromat
41º32'N 81º32'W
http://astro.lightarts.net


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Matt Harmston
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Reged: 12/28/05
Posts: 2049
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: AnthonyP]
      #986074 - 06/05/06 08:12 AM

Quote:

How do I find the field stop?




Some time back, Don Pensack (Starman1) provided a very useful EXCEL workbook with specs on many different accessories, including 1100 different eyepieces. One of the specs was field stop diameter, which he has provided for some (but not all) of the EPs. I believe this file can be found on the CN website, but a search on "Pensack" and "Starman1" did not return a link for the file. Anyone else out there know where this file is located and if it has been updated recently?

Clear skies and new equipment!!
-Matt

--------------------
1-16" Custom Dob Under Construction
1-150mm Celestron Refractor
1-4.5" f/4 Starblast
34mm Siebert Observatory
22mm Orion Lanthenum Superwide
17mm Siebert Ultra
13mm Vixen LVW--On the way out
12mm Televue T4 -- On the way in :-)
10mm Vixen LV
7mm Siebert Ultra
2x Televue Barlow

Most important:



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square_pegAdministrator
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: Matt Harmston]
      #986115 - 06/05/06 08:53 AM

Quote:


Some time back, Don Pensack (Starman1) provided a very useful EXCEL workbook with specs on many different accessories, including 1100 different eyepieces. One of the specs was field stop diameter, which he has provided for some (but not all) of the EPs. ....Anyone else out there know where this file is located and if it has been updated recently?




It's a sticky thread near the top of this forum. Link right here, the spreadsheet is attached to Tom L's post.
Buyer's Guides to Eyepieces/Accessories

Last update was Feb 28, 2006. That's the combined spreadsheet. The individual categories are also available if you scroll down.

--------------------
Tom (Pegster)
DSH-8 (GSO Dob)
15x70 Oberwerks
SVP 100 f/6 achro
WO 66 Petzval
Sears Discoverer EQ 60/900
8x42 Regals




History is Philosophy teaching by examples.
Thucydides


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Matt Harmston
Graduate: Confused State University
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Reged: 12/28/05
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: square_peg]
      #986128 - 06/05/06 08:58 AM

Thanks, Tom!
-Matt

--------------------
1-16" Custom Dob Under Construction
1-150mm Celestron Refractor
1-4.5" f/4 Starblast
34mm Siebert Observatory
22mm Orion Lanthenum Superwide
17mm Siebert Ultra
13mm Vixen LVW--On the way out
12mm Televue T4 -- On the way in :-)
10mm Vixen LV
7mm Siebert Ultra
2x Televue Barlow

Most important:



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Gaz O'C
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Reged: 01/02/05
Posts: 1264
Re: AFOV vs TFOV [Re: Matt Harmston]
      #986150 - 06/05/06 09:17 AM


TFOV = AFOV/Mag = good enough.

--------------------
14" f4.5 Dob
10" Meade SCT
180mm f15 Mak/Cass
127mm f12 Mak/Cass
150mm f5 refractor
ED100
EQ6 Skyscan
HEQ5
EQ2

http://stargazerslounge.co.uk/


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alexM
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Reged: 06/30/04
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: AnthonyP]
      #986355 - 06/05/06 12:36 PM

Quote:

If so, why is the TFOV 2.4 degrees and the AFOV 60 degrees?



As David stated, the AFOV is the angular span that you see. In your example, the angle from the center of the field of view to the field stop, as you see it, is a 30 degree angle.
Think about this: you have a funnel whos sides form a 60 degree angle to each other. You hold the funnel up to your eye and look at the wall across the room, you will probably see a good portion of the wall. As you walk closer to the wall, same as increasing magnification, you will see a smaller and smaller portion of the wall. Your angular view is still 60 degrees, but the area of the wall you see decreases as magnification increases.
Back to your eyepiece, you are looking thru a 60 degree funnel, and the actual portion of sky you see is 2.4 degrees of the celestial sphere.

--------------------
Hardin DSH 10
Orion XT6
Orion 100mm/F6
Celestron C6-S
SVP GEM
Meade EQ3 set for Alt-AZ


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David Knisely
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: Gaz O'C]
      #986484 - 06/05/06 02:26 PM

Quote:


TFOV = AFOV/Mag = good enough.




Unfortunately, this method has a problem or two in a few cases, so if good field stop data is available, the field stop formula tends to be somewhat more accurate. Unfortunately, only Tele Vue tends to provide good field stop data with their eyepieces, so unless someone actually measures their own eyepieces, the field stop remains unknown until purchase. However, using the tried and true star drift method, the exact true field of view can be measured. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info


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andydj5xp
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: David Knisely]
      #987422 - 06/06/06 03:54 AM

How about this

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/947777/page/9/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1

CS

Andreas

--------------------
TEC140 (#216)
Leica 22...7.3mm zoom, barlowed 1.75x (12.6...4.2mm)
Zeiss AbbeII set with Barlow 2x
WO UWAN16, also barlowed 1.78x (9mm)
WO UWAN28


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Lawrence Sayre
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: andydj5xp]
      #987479 - 06/06/06 06:13 AM

FS ~= FL_eyepiece (AFOV/57.296)

--------------------
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')


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novbabies
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: alexM]
      #987481 - 06/06/06 06:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

If so, why is the TFOV 2.4 degrees and the AFOV 60 degrees?



As David stated, the AFOV is the angular span that you see. In your example, the angle from the center of the field of view to the field stop, as you see it, is a 30 degree angle.
Think about this: you have a funnel whos sides form a 60 degree angle to each other. You hold the funnel up to your eye and look at the wall across the room, you will probably see a good portion of the wall. As you walk closer to the wall, same as increasing magnification, you will see a smaller and smaller portion of the wall. Your angular view is still 60 degrees, but the area of the wall you see decreases as magnification increases.
Back to your eyepiece, you are looking thru a 60 degree funnel, and the actual portion of sky you see is 2.4 degrees of the celestial sphere.




Great explanation!

--------------------
Good Seeing!

Mark

Orion 12" XTi f/4.9


VERY old Edmund 6" f/8 reflector
Assorted binoculars


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andydj5xp
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: Lawrence Sayre]
      #987610 - 06/06/06 09:06 AM

Quote:

FS ~= FL_eyepiece (AFOV/57.296)




Yes, you are absolutely right if the magnification distortion isn't large.

If not:
Nagler 26 mm with above formula: 37.2 mm
Nagler 26 mm with my method: 34.9 mm
Nagler 26 mm as specified from TeleVue: 35 mm

Since the difference is just 6.3 % my method indeed isn't neccessary for most purposes.

Andreas

--------------------
TEC140 (#216)
Leica 22...7.3mm zoom, barlowed 1.75x (12.6...4.2mm)
Zeiss AbbeII set with Barlow 2x
WO UWAN16, also barlowed 1.78x (9mm)
WO UWAN28


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David Knisely
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: Lawrence Sayre]
      #988274 - 06/06/06 05:50 PM

Quote:

FS ~= FL_eyepiece (AFOV/57.296)




Well, the field stop is the field stop (physical or an accurate calculated figure based on the exact true field that an eyepiece will yield in a telescope with an accurately-known focal length). I don't know how much of a need there is for a formula to calculate a field stop diameter, but for some of my own eyepieces, the above formula yields the following results:

40mm Mk-70 Konig: AFOV: 68.0 deg. Measured Field stop: 46.00mm
Calculated field stop: 47.5mm (+3.3% off)

30mm Wide-Scan III: AFOV: 84.0 deg. Measured Field Stop: 44.00mm
Calculated field stop: 44.0mm (0% off)

30mm Ultrascopic: AFOV: 52.3 deg. Measured Field Stop: 26.08mm
Calculated field stop: 27.4mm (+5% off)

27mm Kellner: AFOV: 52.5 deg. Measured Field Stop: 25.38mm
Calculated field stop: 24.7mm (-2.7% off)

24mm Panoptic: AFOV: 69.5 deg. Measured Field Stop: 27.00mm
Calculated field stop: 29.1mm (+7.8% off)

24mm Konig: AFOV: 59.6 deg. Measured Field Stop: 24.04mm
Calculated field stop: 25.0mm (+4% off)

20mm Celestron Plossl: AFOV: 51.7 deg. Measured Field Stop: 17.23mm
Calculated field stop: 18.0mm (+4% off)

15mm Ultrascopic: AFOV: 58.3 deg. Measured Field Stop: 14.4mm
Calculated field stop: 15.3mm (+6.3% off)

14mm Meade Ultrawide: AFOV: 83.1mm Measured Field Stop: 20.3mm
Calculated field stop: 19.9mm (-2% off)

10mm Ultrascopic: AFOV: 48.7 deg. Measured Field Stop: 8.32mm
Calculated field stop: 8.50mm (+2.2% off)

6.4mm SuperPlossl: AFOV: 48.7 deg. Measured Field Stop: 5.31mm
Calculated field stop: 5.44mm (+1.7% off)

6mm Brandon Ortho: AFOV: 44.2 deg. Measured Field Stop: 4.62mm
Calculated field stop: 4.63mm (+0.2% off).

Average error: 2.5%. This is nearly the same as the mean error with the old AFOV/Mag formula for true field of view. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info


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Lawrence Sayre
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Re: AFOV vs TFOV new [Re: David Knisely]
      #988567 - 06/06/06 09:28 PM

2.5% nominal error is probably well within the rounding error in the manufacturers provided AFOV figures (and also the focal length figures), which are both most likely rounded for each eyepiece to hit the accepted standards of the industry, and to give families of eyepieces that implied family closeness we all love. 2.5% overall error does not seem to be too bad at all in my book.

--------------------
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')


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