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Astrophotography and Sketching >> Film Astrophotography

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loo27
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What are the advantages of film astrophotography?
      #986398 - 06/05/06 01:12 PM

I'm just curious. I want to get into astrophotography, but don't know where to begin.

What are the advantages of film v ccd? The only advantage I've heard is the prints are better using film.

--------------------
Cliff

C10-N/CG-5GT
Tomlin Industries 6" f/6 Newtonian
C4-R
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ClownFishModerator
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: loo27]
      #986437 - 06/05/06 01:55 PM

CCD imaging requires a computer, film does not.
Digital SLR imaging does not require a computer at the scope, while stand-alone CCD imagers do. This may or may not appeal to you.

CCD imaging provides immediate feedback. Film requires you to wait for development.

CCD imaging is better in light polluted skies.
CCD imaging allows for very easy "multiple" exposures, thus you can image with far shorter duration shots. In film, you generally need long continuous exposures.

Now what all that said...

COST is a factor that has to be addressed.
CCD has a much larger INTIAL cost, especially if you are trying to capture the same resolution and field-of-view as film. A typical FILM camera these days runs between $50 and $100. To get a CCD imager that can duplicate it's FOV can easily cost over $1000.

But the ON-GOING cost of CCD is virtually zero. With film you have to add in film and developing costs continuously.

To say one is easier.. that all depends on how much experience you already have. A film camera has a whole lot LESS technology to worry about, but requires more attention to detail, since mistakes take so long to detect.

If you're going to LEARN with film, you should HAND guide your shots. Manual (hand) guiding allows you to visually SEE many of the errors while they are happening. This gives you the chance to stop the exposure, correct the problem and start again.

I hope this helps!

As far as asthetics.. I, and many other film users find the breath taking colors available in some films like Fuji 400F Provia hard to beat in all but very expensive digital imaging systems. And when you go to medium or large format film cameras... the incredible wide views are unbelievable.

Take a look at THIS FILM SHOT. Most lower cost CCD imagers like the Meade DSI could only capture the tiny globular cluster. These film cameras can capture huge swaths of sky to help you create amazing mosaics. You can do this with digital cameras, but it will cost you a whole lot more!

Every film goer has a reason why they choose film. For me, it all boiled down to cost. I simply can not afford the $1300 I would need to get a modified Digital SLR, or high-end CCD imager that I would want in order to achieve the same results I have come to expect from my 26 year old film camera and a $7 roll of film. If anyone here is willing to donate a nice DSLR, I'll pack up my OM-1 in a heartbeat. Although... there are SOME cases where it's so much less work to use film, and in those cases I'll still keep the film camera around until no one makes decent films that work for astrophotography.

CF


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rwiederrich
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: ClownFish]
      #986465 - 06/05/06 02:17 PM Attachment (58 downloads)

Yo Clownfish,

Very nice explanation, and examples.

Even with the initial cost of CCD imagers, I prefer film.
I like having the prints, and as far as I am concerned the resolution and color is unparalled at the amateur level.

We've talked about this before, and I think we speek the same language.

I'm just sorry it is still rainy, and I can't get out.

I did take this really bad pic of Orion. 6"f/6.5, Fuji 400, 2 minute unguided ex. No processing

Rob

--------------------
www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.



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loo27
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: ClownFish]
      #986469 - 06/05/06 02:21 PM

Good points. Makes me wonder if an equipment change over is needed. I love visual study of the planets, but I've only had 1 great DSO night in the 3 yrs I've been observing. This includes long trips to dark skies. I've noticed this pattern of me spending half my weekend observing and being disappointed. Maybe visual DSO's aren't that thrilling to me.

Long exposure film astrophotography sounds like a mistake with a c14. Has anyone come up with some good C14 film results?

--------------------
Cliff

C10-N/CG-5GT
Tomlin Industries 6" f/6 Newtonian
C4-R
50mm binos


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ClownFishModerator
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: loo27]
      #986546 - 06/05/06 03:26 PM

I doubt it... with film astrophotography it's ALL about F-Ratio.
I would be able to get wonderful results with a f/4 lens that is only 135mm long. But give me an f/10 ANYTHING and I'll die of frustration before being able to capture anything worth sharing.

Sure you can use a focal reducer, but the F/6 reducer adds significant vignetting and LOTS of coma. The f/3 is virtually useless unless you are using a narrow field CCD camera. This is EXACTLY why I choose the 8" f/4 Schmidt Newtonian. It has a HUGE field of view, with a low amount of COMA and is extremely FAST. Plus, Meade tosses in a great little GEM to boot!

Now with those large SCTS's you have other problems besides slow F-ratios.
The other side of the F/Ratio is the HUGE focal LENGTH. That means you have to be extremely precise in your guiding... far more nerve wrecking than with my 800mm focal length SN.

Now add in the SCT's short tube, and you have no place to mount a long focal length guidescope. Then again, at such a long focal length OTA, you would be better off with an Off-Axis guider - which is a horrible way to guide!!! I've used OAG's and they are nasty!

Oh yeh.. the SCT is probably on a FORK mount, which is the worse equatorial system for astrophotography.. in my very humble (although experienced) opinion.

I have rarely seen any decent film results with anything over a 10" fast newt.

By the way.. I remember the very FIRST moment I wanted to learn astrophotography. In high-school while taking a photography class all my classmates were busy shooting each other, and their pets doing stupid tricks. I picked up an astronomy magazine in the library (I was not an amateur astronomer at that time) and saw a picture of M31. I figured, as most people do, that you need a 200" telescope and 16 years of education to be able to image that galaxy. Then I read the caption that told that the photo was taken with a Meade 6" newtonian telescope, but I had no idea what that was. Then before I put the mag down, I saw Meade's ad in the front. There was a 6" newt for $600. It blew me away. From that moment I wanted to be an astrophotographer. My first scope... a 6" f/5 newt on a GEM!

Cliff, you are correct. DSO's can be disappointing visually, if you have your heart set on those wonderful colors and details in a pic. To me, astrophotography is an EXTENSION of my visual astronomy. I study and scrutinize my own pics, more than a visual astronomer does at the scope.

I like to use THIS as an example. This is a SINGLE 40 minute exposure taken with a unmodified Meade LXD75 8" SN. The image clearly shows MANY globular clusters deep inside ANOTHER galaxy, the Andromeda galaxy. Most visual observers are used to looking at globulers in OUR own galaxy, but only those with huge 12" and larger scopes can detect these faint globulars visually in another galaxy. Yet my photo on a cheap setup and a $7 roll of film clearly show them!

Enjoy!

CF

--------------------



Learn all about POLAR ALIGNMENT with my Drift Method Tutorial and simulator!! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!



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loo27
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: ClownFish]
      #986665 - 06/05/06 04:35 PM

Thanks Peter, the advice is invaluable. I guess the reason I asked this question is I was thinking about Fastar, with my c14, converting my c14 into an f/2 camera. But, the only way to use it is with digital cameras, which, like you said, are $$.

Perhaps I'll just mess around with the camera and see if it's for me.

--------------------
Cliff

C10-N/CG-5GT
Tomlin Industries 6" f/6 Newtonian
C4-R
50mm binos


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rwiederrich
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: loo27]
      #986725 - 06/05/06 05:21 PM

Quote:

Perhaps I'll just mess around with the camera and see if it's for me.






Cliff,

If anything, you will gain valuable experience.

Learning to use your SLR can be very rewarding, because it is *YOU*, who is taking the picture, not a computer program that evaluates imagary data, and picks the best from the pot. So really, what you get at the end of the evening is what you did. And that is the experience you will need to capture the best images you can. Follow Peters guide to *guiding*, and I bet you'll do great.

Just look at Peter's pictures.....

Rob

--------------------
www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.



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Paul Lennous
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: ClownFish]
      #986736 - 06/05/06 05:29 PM

Quote:

Sure you can use a focal reducer, but the F/6 reducer adds significant vignetting and LOTS of coma.



Hey! That shot of M3 I posted recently was taken through a focal reducer. I do not remember seeing any coma in it.

Quote:

Now with those large SCTS's you have other problems besides slow F-ratios.
The other side of the F/Ratio is the HUGE focal LENGTH. That means you have to be extremely precise in your guiding... far more nerve wrecking than with my 800mm focal length SN.



Agreed, but it does give a much bigger image to work with on the small stuff, like most globs, small galaxies, and planetary nebulae.

Quote:

Now add in the SCT's short tube, and you have no place to mount a long focal length guidescope. Then again, at such a long focal length OTA, you would be better off with an Off-Axis guider - which is a horrible way to guide!!! I've used OAG's and they are nasty!



Hey! Now I feel like I'm getting beaten up! I've gided for two hours non-stop with an OAG! Just because I have to sit in a contorted position all of that itme...

Quote:

Oh yeh.. the SCT is probably on a FORK mount, which is the worse equatorial system for astrophotography.. in my very humble (although experienced) opinion.



Alright, CF! What's up with the personal attack against me? You have described (and scorned) my main rig in almost complete detail! I have an 80's vintage C8 with a 6.3 focal reducer on an old fork mount that I guide with an OAG and a homemade drive corrector. Next thing I know, you are going to complain about having to make DEC adjustments on such a set-up by turning the knob on the fork!

I suppose you have a problem with SCT mirror flop, too!

On a more serious note, decent images can be taken with such a set-up, but you do have to understand its limitations and extra work just as CF eloquently described.

--------------------
Paul
Celestron Super C8 Plus
ETX-125
4.25" f/10 Edmund Red Tube Newtonian
Orion 80mm ED


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rwiederrich
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: Paul Lennous]
      #986760 - 06/05/06 05:47 PM

Quote:

Alright, CF! What's up with the personal attack against me? You have described (and scorned) my main rig in almost complete detail!





I don't believe any personal attacks have been made.
He simply stated from experience the more difficult issues of a fork mount, and focal reducer.

But if you have mastered it, then you are outside the example. but a newbe might find a GEM a bit easier.

Rob(Or not)

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www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.



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ClownFishModerator
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: Paul Lennous]
      #986764 - 06/05/06 05:48 PM

Sorry Paul!!! I forgot to mention that many astrophotographers do fine with a fork mounted SCT work.. as you have! But I was really talking about a 14" SCT monster, with longer focal length.

To be fair... yes, you can image with a long FL SCT and a reducer.. but if you try to capture the whole 35mm frame it may be flawed quite a bit. At least that's what I have seen, unless I just had a poorly designed reducer! If however, you go for a small subject and center it, you should be fine. Just be sure you have the appropriate counterweights all over the tube and heavy duty wedge!

CF

--------------------



Learn all about POLAR ALIGNMENT with my Drift Method Tutorial and simulator!! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!



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ClownFishModerator
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: ClownFish]
      #986771 - 06/05/06 05:56 PM

Rob, Paul and everyone here tonight... I'm just way too tired to accurately discuss this. It's midnight and I'm now on about 38 hours without sleep. I think I'll go off to bed, and see if I can come up with a more appropriate response when I get some much needed REMS!

I hope I have not offended anyone.. Sometimes I just start to ramble a bit. I'll leave this by saying .. if you are NEW to film imaging, consider starting with a piggyback setup, as you have cliff. It's a great way to learn the skills needed while using what equipment you may already have, and still get great photos!

Good night all!

CF

--------------------



Learn all about POLAR ALIGNMENT with my Drift Method Tutorial and simulator!! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!



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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: Paul Lennous]
      #986774 - 06/05/06 06:01 PM

I don't agree with the assessment that hand guiding is a necessary component of a beginner learning to do film astophotography.

Autoguiding adds complexity and cost, but the lack of immediate feedback with film (compared to CCD) means that to learn, you want to take LOTS of exposures. It's a lot easier when you don't have to deal with the tedium of hand guiding.

Guiding of any kind (manual or auto) is not needed for 50mm wide-field imaging, but a tracking mount is required, which I think is the lowest cost, easiest way to start learning.

You get really great wide-field shots, and there's a very low cost of entry because you can start with an EQ2 or EQ3 mount. But you still learn how to polar align, estimate exposure (i.e. find out what your sky-fog limit is), evaluate you lenses, post-process...

IMHO, the main feature of film astrophotography as a beginning medium is that you start start WITHOUT a scope, or guiding, and get great results with very low initial investment -- IF you start with widefield imaging and forget about the scope for a while.

Cheers,
Suk

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Paul Lennous
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: Suk Lee]
      #986792 - 06/05/06 06:18 PM

Um, just for clarification, neither did I actually think that CF was targeting me, nor have I been offended in any way. When I first read his posting, I almost fell out of my chair laughing because I know exactly what he is talking about. I thought that the graemlins, as well as my ridiculous comments about turning the DEC knob (which really IS how I DEC adjust), about contorting oneself to use an OAG, and about mirror flop would give me away.

I have used both an 8" SCT on a fork mount, and a small refractor on a GEM. I emphatically agree that the refractor on the GEM is MUCH easier to use. No contest.

I just couldn't resist a little fun (as well as pointing out a few other problems when using an SCT).

Again, I was in no way offended, I hope I have offended no one, and I hope everyone rereads my posting again in the tongue-in-cheek manner that I thought I posted it in.

I hope all is well?

--------------------
Paul
Celestron Super C8 Plus
ETX-125
4.25" f/10 Edmund Red Tube Newtonian
Orion 80mm ED


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rwiederrich
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: ClownFish]
      #986796 - 06/05/06 06:21 PM

Quote:

Rob, Paul and everyone here tonight... I'm just way too tired to accurately discuss this. It's midnight and I'm now on about 38 hours without sleep. I think I'll go off to bed, and see if I can come up with a more appropriate response when I get some much needed REMS!

I hope I have not offended anyone.. Sometimes I just start to ramble a bit. I'll leave this by saying .. if you are NEW to film imaging, consider starting with a piggyback setup, as you have cliff. It's a great way to learn the skills needed while using what equipment you may already have, and still get great photos!

Good night all!

CF





GIT YOUR HAPPY HAPPY OFF TO THE SACK!

If you aint gots your sleep you aint gots anythin...

We'll ramble on this later, then.

Rob

--------------------
www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.



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Paul Lennous
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: Suk Lee]
      #986800 - 06/05/06 06:23 PM

Quote:

IMHO, the main feature of film astrophotography as a beginning medium is that you start start WITHOUT a scope, or guiding, and get great results with very low initial investment -- IF you start with widefield imaging and forget about the scope for a while.




In fact, I enjoy wide fields so much that I try to shoot at least on every time I'm out shooting. There's something beautiful about seeing stars swarm like smoke.

--------------------
Paul
Celestron Super C8 Plus
ETX-125
4.25" f/10 Edmund Red Tube Newtonian
Orion 80mm ED


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rwiederrich
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: Suk Lee]
      #986809 - 06/05/06 06:29 PM

Quote:

I don't agree with the assessment that hand guiding is a necessary component of a beginner learning to do film astophotography.

Autoguiding adds complexity and cost, but the lack of immediate feedback with film (compared to CCD) means that to learn, you want to take LOTS of exposures. It's a lot easier when you don't have to deal with the tedium of hand guiding.

Guiding of any kind (manual or auto) is not needed for 50mm wide-field imaging, but a tracking mount is required, which I think is the lowest cost, easiest way to start learning.

You get really great wide-field shots, and there's a very low cost of entry because you can start with an EQ2 or EQ3 mount. But you still learn how to polar align, estimate exposure (i.e. find out what your sky-fog limit is), evaluate you lenses, post-process...

IMHO, the main feature of film astrophotography as a beginning medium is that you start start WITHOUT a scope, or guiding, and get great results with very low initial investment -- IF you start with widefield imaging and forget about the scope for a while.

Cheers,
Suk





Suk,

You bring up some good points. If one is just begining, then what you suggest is a very good way to begin. However, as one matures in their skill, they may, as I and the CF'er have done, want to manual guide. However the cost is very minimal compared to an autoguide system, and computer.

Like every other aspect of this hobby, it is all preference, and that is a good thing.

Rob

--------------------
www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.



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rwiederrich
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: Paul Lennous]
      #986840 - 06/05/06 06:49 PM

Quote:

Um, just for clarification, neither did I actually think that CF was targeting me, nor have I been offended in any way. When I first read his posting, I almost fell out of my chair laughing because I know exactly what he is talking about. I thought that the graemlins, as well as my ridiculous comments about turning the DEC knob (which really IS how I DEC adjust), about contorting oneself to use an OAG, and about mirror flop would give me away.

I have used both an 8" SCT on a fork mount, and a small refractor on a GEM. I emphatically agree that the refractor on the GEM is MUCH easier to use. No contest.

I just couldn't resist a little fun (as well as pointing out a few other problems when using an SCT).

Again, I was in no way offended, I hope I have offended no one, and I hope everyone rereads my posting again in the tongue-in-cheek manner that I thought I posted it in.

I hope all is well?




Paul,
All is well for me. I failed to grasp your tongue-n-cheek manner. It probably can be gathered from everyone that every method ,and equipement technique used will have its down side. Just like every other thing we do.

Rob(may resolute/focused images be the fruit of your efforts)

--------------------
www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.



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Dean
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #986922 - 06/05/06 07:39 PM

Quote:

Take a look at THIS FILM SHOT. Most lower cost CCD imagers like the Meade DSI could only capture the tiny globular cluster. These film cameras can capture huge swaths of sky to help you create amazing mosaics. You can do this with digital cameras, but it will cost you a whole lot more!




Yes it will cost more (alot more!), but you can do more with a smaller scope. Here is a comparable shot of M31 - but with a dinky little 80mm refractor and an ST10MXE CCD. For a cost perspective, an ST10MXE, filter wheel and filters will set you back $6K easily.

Quote:


To be fair... yes, you can image with a long FL SCT and a reducer.. but if you try to capture the whole 35mm frame it may be flawed quite a bit. At least that's what I have seen, unless I just had a poorly designed reducer!





Yep, I wouldn't use an SCT with film. An SCT is really much better at getting up close and personal like this shot of the Dumbell, this shot of the horsehead or this shot of the core of the Orion Nebula. All three were taken with 14" SCT and a reducer with a CCD.

One advantage a CCD has over film is sensitivity. For example, this and this were taken with an 80mm refractor or this with a 12.5" at F/9.

Granted, all were taken with a CCD that cost much more than a SLR and you would have to go through a lifetime of film and developing to make up the difference.

--------------------
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Whats with that avatar?


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TxStars
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: loo27]
      #987348 - 06/06/06 01:43 AM

Speeking of making prints I have many 24" x 36"
and 36" x 48" prints made with film...
I have not seen any large prints fron CCD's...

If anyone has please point them out, I would love to see them...

And as far as auto-guiding,any photo using one should have a caption reading:
"Equipment set up by ______________ Photo by Computer"...

--------------------

Tak FC-50
Tak FCT-65
Tak FC-100
"SCUZZO" 300/1.1
Camera Nikon F2 / Mamiya press 6x7 ,6x9 yay Film
Lenses Yes Many - lol
Mount - GoTo by hand and eye


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ClownFishModerator
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Re: What are the advantages of film astrophotography? new [Re: TxStars]
      #987385 - 06/06/06 03:08 AM

Gee... I thought I was bad. TxStars, Let's not get too nasty here.. and hijack this post into a manual vs autoguiding war!

(Yawn...) I just woke up, after about... 5 hours sleep. Should be a good day!

First.. Autoguiding, once all set up and working does indeed make sure your scope is tracking well. But there is so much else involved in the photo that computers shouldn't get all the credit.

Autoguiding itself is NOT a no-brainer. It requires much more technical work than hand guiding, but much less physical effort. If you enjoy tweaking computers and hardware, then autoguiding is a fun addition to astrophotography. It also allows for photographs that would be almost impossible (or downright painful) to do by hand. Imagine taking 200 images, all in one night, all hand guided! OUCH!

Getting back to some of my other comments:

I tried to say, but did a poor job, that if you just starting out in astrophotography with FILM, you should go for wide field piggyback shots. It's a lot more tolerant of errors, while still requiring all the same skills as prime focus photography. When you do this, you will NOT (as Suk Lee pointed out) need to guide for lenses with a short focal length. As you increase the FL or as you increase the exposure duration, then guiding will need to be used. The FREQUENCY of guiding corrections is a direct correlation to the amount of tracking error being corrected, the focal length of he camera, the focal length of the guidescope, and the duration of the exposure. Everything is connected. Ok... I'm rambling again.

The bottom line is that in most wide field shots, with exposures lasting under 30 minutes, good polar alignment, and a good mount, you should not need to guide.

But I still feel that if you are just learning FILM PRIME FOCUS astrophotography, in which you will need to guide, the manual guiding is the way to go. Unless you already have a working knowledge of autoguiding! Autoguiding adds more technology, and in my experience, it can just add a lot more confusion to an already difficult skill to learn.

But some people LOVE gadgets, and for them they may do well by teaching autoguiding along with film astrophotography. But not me. I want to have my hands on the scope, and physically see any guiding errors.

All this is getting away from the original topic, which is the ADVANTAGES of FILM astrophotography.

The overwhelming advantage is the initial COST. It's FAR less expensive than digital imaging when you are comparing similar results. You just can not get close to what a $50 film camera can do compared to a CCD system for much less than $1500. If you can afford the higher end imaging, then this point is irrelevant.

Another advantage is simplicity. Many film shots are acceptable after a single exposure. No darks, or multiple stacked images are required. But it should be said that the better film images are indeed post processed, and some use multiple exposures, but when comparing a SINGLE, unmodified exposure, film is hard to beat.

OK.. I think I've babbled enough, so I'll let someone else offer more input!

CF

--------------------



Learn all about POLAR ALIGNMENT with my Drift Method Tutorial and simulator!! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!



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