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Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

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BillC
on a new path
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Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2111
Loc: Washington, USA
Changes in The Binocular Industry
      #986623 - 06/05/06 04:08 PM

While I have been defending Fujinon pretty heavily lately, I would like to make it known there is a company in China that is producing some pretty good looking clones of the F series. And, frankly, I intend to buy some for my shop. They will not be sold as Fujinons, but with the market being what it is, it might be good for list members to be wary.

Also, without mentioning any names, I only know of VERY FEW companies on the planet that are now getting at least SOME of their binoculars from Japan or China. And, of course, SOME of the Japanese companies are getting SOME of their products from China. Our Helmsman is produced by a Japanese firm. However, I had the option to purchase it from Japanese or Chinese factories.

Also, it should not be assumed that all Chinese instruments are junk. Across the board, Chinese instruments are not as good as those from Japan. BUT, how long will that remain so? As I have said from the beginning, let a name and price tag take you in a certain direction, but, BUY a particular instrument.

These threads are being filled by folks wanting to talk about optical quality, and how it is going in the sewer. Well, I agree . . . to a point. We are certainly seeing a hiccup in the industry right now. Those who want the best are left with four options:

1) They can either get off their wallet and spend enough money to buy a winner that will perform well for years, all the while keeping their user off the collimation threads. They will probably cost $500+. Or,

2) They can sit back and enjoy the beauties of nature with a less than legendary instrument and let the more geekie among us worry about levels of performance that don’t matter to them. Or,

3) They can sit back and enjoy the beauties of nature with a less than legendary instrument and try to convince themselves that whatever they are using is just as good as anything else on the market, and that those who would spend more are just being foolish. Or,

4) They can enjoy the beauties of nature with a less than legendary instrument, but, succumbing to jealously, feel the need look at those who have chosen to make a better investment as being foolish, snobby, or both. And who, although they don’t know field curvature from distortion, are ready, at the drop of a hat, to find fault with better instruments and spread their misinformation to all who will listen.

Methinks the first three options are pretty healthy. The last one would go a long way on some lists. Unfortunately, there are just too many watchdogs on CN.

When I see comments like “One glimpse of the "China moon" tells me these binos are utter trash,” it makes me wonder if the real subject is optics or nationalism.

Well, grass will not grow where I spit while thinking about offshoring (and I have just finished an article on the subject). I’m as John Wayne, Wyatt Earp, Davy Crockett, Theodore Roosevelt, American Redneck as you can get. But, I can’t bring myself to bend the truth for the Stars & Stripes or anything else.

So, yes, China is struggling right now. Even so, some of their products are moving up in quality, rapidly. I DIDN’T say ALL; I said SOME. I didn’t say they were THERE; I said they were moving up RAPIDLY.

I am old enough to remember when “Made in Japan” was a joke. Many things from Japan in those days seemed to come PRE-BROKEN.

Today, let’s say bad things about LEXUS, ACURA, HONDA, YAMAHA, MITSUBISHI, SONY, NIKON, FUJINON . . .

Our own people wouldn’t listen to Demming. The Japanese listened well enough to learn to kick our collective butts. Why bother going to war to take a country when you can just buy it a piece at a time . . . with its own money?

And China? From where I sit, they are farther down the road of production than Japan was at the same point in their growth.

So what? Well, while we are not going to see $1,000+ binoculars going for $60 anytime soon, we are soon to see binoculars that will match that quality for HALF the price! And isn’t that really all a rational person would expect?

Whether they like it or not, the binocular buying public needs to prepare for the growing wave of CHINESE binoculars . . . Even the CHINESE binoculars that some take as Japanese and the CHINESE binoculars SOME take as European.

The fact remains that whether you buy a winner or a loser is not based on the country of origin; it is based on your ability to LEARN something about optics and your ability to withstand getting sucked into believing urban legends or everything you read on the net.

I never cease to be amazed by the people who will trash one company or model while extolling their own choice, when they are often the same binocular, differing only in advertising and cosmetics.

Or how about marketing like der “Adlerblick Fernglaser”? Man, you don’t get much more German sounding than that! Of course, the instrument was Asian.

If the Chinese get good enough to produce products of such quality as to fool the experienced and caring American merchants, then I guess we will have a new source for high quality AND inexpensive instruments. Is that time coming? Yes! Should we hold our breath? Hardly.

So, what is on the horizon? Well, this is what I see. Just as Gibson, Fender, and Gretsch guitars are turning to Asia to regain the market share taken these last few years by Ibanez, Jackson, Dean, and two dozen others, so, too, will it be with optics. The big names will keep their big names. But, they will do so by turning more and more to Asian products and riding shotgun on the QA of those products.

I am also amazed at some of the folks here on CN who will go to the mats defending the quality of this or that product that didn’t even exist even 5 years ago—except under another name. Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily.

You have a lot of young entrepreneurs wanting to sell a product and make a name for themselves. Are they going to do it by selling the best equipment in the world? NO, they are not. So, how will they do it? They will do it by providing fast, friendly, personal service, and by standing behind their products. Look at Garrett. Zach has Cory. You think that doesn’t mean something to me and my dollars? I don’t have any of his products. But, if I did, I would know who to beat if I had a problem. I also know that the problem would go away quickly. And, of course, all the others are building their own following.

“Hey, dude, what kind of guitar do you have?”
“I have Gretsch Nashville 6120, a Rickenbacker 375 Deluxe in Maple Glo, and a Guild Starfire III.”
“Humm! I never heard of any of them; Did you get’em at Wal-Mart?”

The times, they are ‘a changing.

Just a thought.

Bill


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refractory
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Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: BillC]
      #986634 - 06/05/06 04:15 PM

Option 1.1) Buy used, save a buck or two.

Jess Tauber


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BillC
on a new path
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Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2111
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: refractory]
      #986638 - 06/05/06 04:17 PM

Just like in cars, my friend.

Cheers,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


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KennyJ

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Posts: 10163
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Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: BillC]
      #986652 - 06/05/06 04:27 PM

Bill ,

May I be the first to congratulate you on another MASTERFUL piece , which I hope is fully and truly appreciated by ALL who read it ( which it probably WON'T be -- if past observations are anything to guess by ! )

One thing you and I DO have in common , is a love and appreciation for great binoculars and great GUITARS !

I've often thought of using guitars as analogies for binoculars , but unfortunately I don't know half enough about EITHER of them really !

What I DO know however , is what it's like to LOOK THROUGH great binoculars and not so great binoculars , and what it's like to PLAY and LISTEN to great guitars , and not so great guitars .

Even BLINDFOLDED , I can tell both by the " feel " and by the " sound " the differences between what I call a REAL Fender Telecaster , made in the USA , and one bearing the same name , made a few hundred miles south , or indeed anywhere else , for that matter .

Regards , Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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BillC
on a new path
*****

Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2111
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: KennyJ]
      #986664 - 06/05/06 04:34 PM

Thanks Kenny.

But, while I DID own all the guitars mentioned—and many, many more. They are ALL gone.

Today, I own an Epiphone Sheridan II from Japan, an Epiphone Casino from Korea, and a Fender Telecaster from Mexico (American Electronics).

But, please don’t tell anyone; it would be bad for my snob image.

Cheers,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
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Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: KennyJ]
      #986666 - 06/05/06 04:36 PM

Bill -



Thanks to you, I appreciate the difference between conditional alignment and true collimation. And I also understand that true collimation cannot be checked or corrected by many of the vendors selling binoculars (including many of the big boys). Knowing this now is why I can appreciate Garrett Optical and why my next batch of cash may go to Zach.

About the big names using Chinese optics - a friend brought over a brand new pair of Nikons a few weeks ago, retailed at around $200 ....guess where it was made? Right. China.

MikeG

--------------------
Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.



Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!



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KennyJ

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Posts: 10163
Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #986696 - 06/05/06 04:57 PM

< But, please don’t tell anyone; >

Bill my friend ,

It's a bit late NOW , don't you think ( although STILL time to edit ! )

Wouldn't YOU agree though , that , good as they are ( and I KNOW they CAN be ) those Mexican versions are just not QUITE the same ?

And I mean REALLY -- not just for any psychological reasons.

Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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BluewaterObserva
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Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 4763
Loc: Zuni Mtns, NM
Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: KennyJ]
      #986711 - 06/05/06 05:09 PM

The problem? Well not sure it is a problem...

But with everything and I mean everything in life these days. They are marketed for the "Average" user.

So most people are fine with binos and guitars that just work, they don't want to pay for, nor do they really have any need for anything beyond that.

I only see it getting worse with everything anybody could purchase or get involved in.

Welcome to the future, it is here right now.


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edwincjones
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Reged: 04/10/04
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Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: BluewaterObserva]
      #987115 - 06/05/06 09:55 PM

Bill,

I think you produced a good and accurate summary of the optics future. And I do not think it is all that bad-the more poeple who buy "decent" optics, the more interest in binoculars, astronomy/birding/etc and the more appreciation for nature, dark skies, and preservating the earth.

edj

--------------------

n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy



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BillC
on a new path
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Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2111
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: edwincjones]
      #987125 - 06/05/06 10:03 PM

Very agreed! That is why I use what I use . . . and often happily use much worse.

Rightfully, or wrongfully, I just like to shake folks out of the fairy land of binoculars that hasn't existed for years.

I’ll bet I could take a binocular that comes to the States under half a dozen names, rip the armor off and show everyone on the list that they were 98% identical and came from the same factory, and within 6 hours, someone would be talking about how #3 in the selection is so much better than #6.

Why do I feel that way? Cause I have been preaching it for years, and I’ve yet to make a dent. Heck, I can just about guarantee that there are some on the list who would argue with me that some lines of binoculars are made in the U.S.

Oh, well, such is the net.

Have a great evening.

Bill (ever so clumsy at trying to be helpful) Cook


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ngc6475
Fearless Spectator
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Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: BillC]
      #987140 - 06/05/06 10:13 PM

I recently purchased a Chinese made Minolta Activa and, while it's not perfect, it is a surprisingly good binocular for very little money. The coatings on the optics are very close in terms of quality to the Japanese binoculars in my cabinet.

--------------------
Walter

"Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."
-Mark Twain



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Swedpat
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Posts: 1033
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Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: edwincjones]
      #987155 - 06/05/06 10:26 PM

BillC,

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the discussion of japanese vs chinese optics the comparison often not becomes honest.

What I mean is that when people claim that "chinese optics dont hold up to the standard of japanese or german optics" they mean: "chinese optics for 100-200$ dont hold up to japanese or german optics for 1000$".
The best chinese optics are not yet equal to the best japanese or german, but the price isn't nearly the same either!

Because I have followed the evolution of binoculars since the last 15 years I can confirm that the budget chinese optics mainly today are better than the japanese predecessors for 10-15 years ago IN THE SAME PRICE RANGE.

Therefore I have reacted when some birders have claimed that chinese optics are worse than japanese ones, without to take in consider the price tag. That day when a chinese 10x50 is sold for 1000$ the german high-end manufacturers have reason to get nervous!

Regards, Patric

--------------------
*2,3x40 Constellation View Wide-Bino
*Leupold 6x30 Yosemite
*Leupold Katmai 6x32
*Swarovski SLCNew 7x42B
*Bresser (Lidl) 10x50
*Oberwerk 11x70
*No name (Kunming) 15x70
*Scopos ED APO 66
*Meade 5000 26mm Plössl, Vixen LV 10/5mm

Psalm 19:2


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BillC
on a new path
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Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2111
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: ngc6475]
      #987156 - 06/05/06 10:26 PM

Yep; agreed. The Activa was my "go to" binocular line for those who couldn't go for more expensive models.

However, Minolta is no more. Sony didn't pick up the binocular portion of the package.

Cheers,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


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BillC
on a new path
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Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: Swedpat]
      #987183 - 06/05/06 10:42 PM

Quote:

BillC,

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the discussion of japanese vs chinese optics the comparison often not becomes honest.Regards, Patric




Patric:

You are not wrong at all. If one binocular was made in Japan AND China, the Japanese would probably be better than the Chinese . . . at this point in time. However, I find the differences much greater in mechanics than optics.

Have a pleasant evening.

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


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DJB
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 1269
Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: BillC]
      #987470 - 06/06/06 05:52 AM

Hi Bill,

Thank you for taking the time to demonstrate your crucial knowledge of the industry. For some reason, this has always interested me, just like world economics, of which I know so darn little.

I must say that I enjoy reading your analogies. It's like reading something in "Time Magazine" or such. That's right, you have been published. Thank you for your contributions for all of us. Don't leave us now; the fun is only beginning.

Best regards,
Dave.


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Joe Ogiba
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Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3363
Loc: NJ USA
Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: DJB]
      #987578 - 06/06/06 08:39 AM

Quote:

All Tele Vue eyepiece designs by Al Nagler are proprietary and are manufactured in factories in Japan and Taiwan that do not make competitive products.



TeleVue Optics
Quote:

Oberwerk Ultra Series is our highest-quality mid-size binoculars, equaling the performance of the finest Japanese brands, for about half the price. Incredible sharpness across almost the the entire field.



Oberwerk Ultra Series 10.5x70mm and 15x70mm

It's just a matter of time before quality rivals Japan and Germany in China.

--------------------
Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.


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photonovore
Moonatic
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Reged: 12/24/04
Posts: 2475
Loc: tacoma wa
Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: Joe Ogiba]
      #988196 - 06/06/06 05:01 PM

Not "arguning" with Bill, but just what counts as "Made in the US" when it comes to binoculars>?

Leopold makes their top line binos down at their plant in Oregon (so they told me on the phone when i asked) but they admitted they do import *some* of the optical components for these. But still the housing mechanical etc of this line is all made right there, in-house (design too).

So did any of the now defunct American binocular makers, back when a bunch of them existed, ever import optics from overseas? Japan & Germany have been exporting optics since the 50's--did none of them end up in the post-war "American made" binoculars of the past? Just curious...

--------------------
Mardi




4" achromat, ETX-70.
Whitepeak Lunar Observatory Website


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Joe Ogiba
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Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3363
Loc: NJ USA
Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry new [Re: photonovore]
      #988303 - 06/06/06 06:05 PM

I don't care if my binoculars are made on the dark side of the moon by purple aliens just as long as they are a great binocular at a fair price. I also don't expect a $350 Pentax 8x32 DCF SP to be 100% equal of $1,500 8x32 Swarovski EL's but I bet it's 90%.

--------------------
Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.


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dgs©
Postmaster
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Reged: 03/29/04
Posts: 13930
Loc: West Monroe, Louisiana
Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry [Re: Joe Ogiba]
      #988319 - 06/06/06 06:16 PM

I'm sure, if pressed, I could make out the difference between a $350 set and a $1,500 set, but I'd have to have both side by side for the comparison. It's not that they are so terribly close, performancewise, it's that I don't believe my eye(s) have the training for picking out subtleties. Giving me a pair like those Swarovski EL's would be casting pearls before swine.

Which is great news for my bank account... I can pretty well satisfy myself with less capital outlay.
Of course, it could become a case of Katy bar the door, should I ever actually get a look through some true premium stuff.

--------------------
- david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm



"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike


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btschumy
Think Astronomy
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Reged: 04/13/04
Posts: 1111
Loc: Austin, TX, USA
Re: Changes in The Binocular Industry [Re: Joe Ogiba]
      #988321 - 06/06/06 06:16 PM

I care that my binoculars are made by people getting a fair wage and working in a healthy environment. Of course it is often next to impossible to determine that, but it is a goal of mine.

--------------------
Bill Tschumy
Where is M13? Freeware -- Add a new dimension to your observing.


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