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Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

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Joe Ogiba
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Reged: 02/14/02

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new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new
      #5400312 - 09/02/12 10:38 PM

Quote:

Unrivalled brightness, thanks to a light transmission of up to more than 95%. This unique result is created by the innovative optical concept of the VICTORY HT range. It is made possible by the perfect interplay of SCHOTT HT-glass, the Carl Zeiss T* multi-layer coating and the Abbe-König-prism system.




VICTORY HT

video


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ronharper
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 02/14/06

Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: Joe Ogiba]
      #5400435 - 09/03/12 12:36 AM

To be sure, the new $2500 gottahaveit Zeiss is pure sex, while my nearly 30 year old 7x50 Fujinon FMT-SX, bought used for $300, is pure clunk. But, they do have one important thing in common.

Zeiss, what took you so long? Welcome to the top.
Ron


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Mark9473
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Reged: 07/21/05

Loc: 51°N 4°E
Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: ronharper]
      #5400543 - 09/03/12 03:32 AM

Well put, Ron. Myself I'm very curious whether or not Zeiss have managed eyepieces that eliminate the fuzzy mush at the edges that plagues the FL.

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Fomalhaut
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 08/16/08

Loc: Switzerland
Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: ronharper]
      #5400600 - 09/03/12 05:16 AM

Ha!!! Fujinon had "better than 95% overall transmission" already 30 years ago??? Yes, but just for the drooling group of ad-believers...
AFAIK, this percentage has never been confirmed by any independent transmission test hitherto. And who ever shone a flashlight on Fuji's 16x70 porro-prisms (from the objective side) and saw their bright reflections, knew it couldn't be more than hot air and handed-down unreflected hype...

Chris


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Mark9473
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Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: Fomalhaut]
      #5400624 - 09/03/12 06:11 AM

Chris: http://www.allbinos.com/257-binoculars_review-Fujinon_7x50_FMT-SX.html

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Fomalhaut
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 08/16/08

Loc: Switzerland
Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: Mark9473]
      #5400731 - 09/03/12 09:12 AM

Mark,

1) Astonishable, indeed!

2) Unfortunately, the 16x70's prisms lack the same qualitiy of coatings as the 7x50...

3) This interlinked FMT-SX-7x50-review (which I didn't know of) is dated 2012, and it is about a Porro-binocular. Additionally, it doesn't say anything about Fujinon's transmission percentage 30 years ago.

4) Plus, the three Fujinon-roof-binoculars on the same site are rated between 75,6% (MF-8x42, tested in 2012) and 81.9% (KF-10x42 W, tested in 2011)...
OTOH, the new Zeiss-HTs are roof-binoculars as well, and "exceeding 95%" despite being much more difficult to be brought to a performance-level similar to the best (less sophisticated) porro-versions.

Chris


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Erik Bakker
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Reged: 08/10/06

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Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: Joe Ogiba]
      #5400755 - 09/03/12 09:35 AM

Look forward to trying them out. In fine binoculars, light transmission is one of many parameters that help them become top achievers for the connoisseur.

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EdZ
Professor EdZ
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Reged: 02/15/02

Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: Erik Bakker]
      #5400901 - 09/03/12 11:21 AM

Light transmission can be a very misleading statistic.

To compare transmission you need to know:
Is it measured for a single wavelength or an average across a full visible range?
Does it include averaging wavelengths into the deep blue and red wavelengths that pull the average transsmission down, but have littlle effect on the visual appearance?
Were all binoculars measured to the same transmission criteria?

If no then any comparison may be invalid. At the very least, it must be taken with not just a grain, but a full shaker of salt.

Just as important as transmission is illumination.
Keep in mind the measured light transsmission is only valid within the area of 100% iillumination. Binoculars can vary from 10% center of field fully illuminated to approx 80% of field fully illuminated. Most roofs are close to 10%. Most porros are 25%-40%, with the better porros 50% and tthe best porros up to even 80%.

These roofs are all fully illuminated across only 10% of the field or less, some less than 5%. AND only two of these achieve greater than 50% illumination by 70% of the field (half the area of the field), the Leica and the Zen Ray.
Leica Trinovid 10x42 rp
Nikon Monarch ATB10x42 rp
Pentax DCFHRII 10x42 rp
Zen Ray Summit 10x42 rp
Celestron Regal LX 10x42 rp
Zen Ray ZEN ED2 8x43 rp
Celestron Regal LX 8x42 rp

These porros are all fully illuminated across 50% of the field or more. All range from 70% to 90% illuminated by 70% of the field, (half the field area).
Takahashi 22x60
William Optic 22x70
Fujinon FMT-SX 16x70
Pentax PCF WP 16x60

Erik is correct, "light transmission is one of many parameters that help them become top achievers for the connoisseur." But by itself, the statistic for light transmission is almost meaningless to determine brightness.

A binocular that has 80% transmission but is fully illuminated across 50% of the field diameter and 70% illuminated by half the field area is going to appear brighter than a binocular that has 95% transmission but is fully illuminated across only 10% of the field and only 50% to 75% illuminated across half the field area. Do the math.

So all this hubbub about greatest transmission may be nothing more than marketing hype unless of course it is coupled with a plot of the percent illumination for a complete comparison.

edz


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BillC
on a new path
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Reged: 06/04/04

Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: EdZ]
      #5401017 - 09/03/12 12:40 PM

EdZ said:

“Light transmission can be a very misleading statistic.”

CARVE THAT IN STONE!!!

While doing ATM Journal. I was aroused by an article submitted by a fellow who professed to have designed an earth-shaking telescope—better than any APO on the market.

Still, the rays looked like a pin "prique" (gotta keep the filter software happy) inside the bath tube-sized Airy disc. A bit more investigation showed the designer had only used ONE WAVELENGTH to do his designing. Obviously too inexperienced to know other wavelengths had minds of their own.

The fact is that using specs he sent me—of which he was dutifully proud—it would have taken 9 monitors to illustrate the spot diagram had he used all the visible spectrum. Everything in optics is not as intuitive as peeling a potato. Being such, folks often rush headlong into errant “logic.”

Just a thought.

BillC


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Rich V.
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Reged: 01/02/05

Loc: Lake Tahoe area, Nevada, USA
Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: Fomalhaut]
      #5401135 - 09/03/12 01:56 PM

Quote:

Ha!!! Fujinon had "better than 95% overall transmission" already 30 years ago??? Yes, but just for the drooling group of ad-believers...
AFAIK, this percentage has never been confirmed by any independent transmission test hitherto. And who ever shone a flashlight on Fuji's 16x70 porro-prisms (from the objective side) and saw their bright reflections, knew it couldn't be more than hot air and handed-down unreflected hype...

Chris




Chris, I can't help noticing that you jump on every opportunity to bash Fujinon binos. I don't understand what the point is; it's obvious you prefer your Nikon binos but please give it a break.

I have both Nikon and Fujinon binoculars and think both companies produce wonderful binos. For various reasons, all of us have personal preferences; that's how life is. To constantly nit-pick a maybe less than one percent deficit in light transmission on the Fujis just makes you appear to have some kind of axe to grind. Just spit it out; did you have a traumatic incident in your childhood with a pair of Fuji binoculars?

I otherwise enjoy your contributions to CN and don't want you to think I bear any bad feelings towards you...I'm just wondering.

Rich


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Fomalhaut
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 08/16/08

Loc: Switzerland
Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: Rich V.]
      #5401285 - 09/03/12 03:28 PM

Rich,

I can't remember to have mentioned Nikon in this thread and context. In my personal opinion their top of the line products are just one out of five ways to go (the others are Zeiss, Svarovski, Fujinon and Leica) for me.

I originally intended to buy a Fuji 16x70 about ten years ago, but two to three partially personal opto-mechanical as well as ergonomical preferences made me buy a more expensive competitory product after a long and hard struggle. I do not regret this, but was a bit frustrated to almost having been mislead to buy what in the end had appeared to be (in my case!) just the second-best option for my eyes and brain. However, in order not to go on "bashing Fujinon" now I am not going to repeat what these reasons had been and by the way still would be (in my case).

IMO, Fujinon produces the best performance/price-ratio porro-binoculars available nowadays, but this does not necessarily mean they are also the absolute best of all. If I needed a 10x50 porro, it would indeed be the Fujinon 10x50. But if it came down to choosing a new roof-prism-binocular, it would certainly be a Zeiss, Swarovski or maybe even the EDGE-Nikon. But since I have a still very nice Zeiss 7x42P*T-Dialyt, I can't see a real reason to buy a newer one just for a light-gain of a few percent..
My personal philosophy is "Buy the best and forget!" for the next 25 years... This has turned out to be cheaper and more joyful than buying a cheap product every two years, by the way. (But who knows - maybe I just can't resist on replacing my 7x42 by the new 8x42 HT, some day?...)

Finally, as a European, I probably am a bit more sceptical to advertisement-hypes than people may be in other regions of the world and prefer not to go where everybody goes (for whatever reasons). I don't consider myself mainstream, so you are welcome to call me an individualist who is reluctant to be manipulated in any direction against his own independent experiences and decisions. In fact, I also feel free to own a Fujinon 14x40 Techno-Stabi which I am quite fond of and mainly using for nature-watching.

I admit I like Japanese optical products (see some of my telescopes below). As a Swiss I like mechanical quality and precision, but as a European I'm also trying to personally support the European optical industry which I may be a bit proud of. You are quite welcome to call me a European patriot, if you like...

Last but not least, since I've been on pension for the last three years, I am financially independent enough to utter my own opinion without promoting any specific products. In fact, I've never been interested in business at all.

Chris


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BillC
on a new path
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Reged: 06/04/04

Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: Fomalhaut]
      #5401304 - 09/03/12 03:37 PM

"I probably am a bit more sceptical to advertisement-hypes than people may be in other regions of the world"

Hey Rich, this guy sounds right on the money with what he likes, dislikes, and the Kwrap he tries to avoid! Bet he could make a mean army knife, too.

But, perhaps, he's too skeptical. I'll bet he couldn't be convinved that good optics are baked by elves in a hollow tree.

Cheers,

BillC


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GlennLeDrew
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Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: Rich V.]
      #5401319 - 09/03/12 03:44 PM

Mathematically, a larger circle of full illumination at 'so-so' transmission efficiency can result in total transmission for the full field higher than delivered by 'excellent' transmission efficiency but over a smaller circle of full illumination. But is that necessarily better?

Personally, I'd prefer a near-zero circle of full illumination if at the center the transmission is great, as opposed to somewhat poorer transmission over a rather larger circle of full illumination. Why?

Because illumination fall-off toward the field edge is not at all objectionable as long as it's reasonably gradual. I can't detect the 'darkening' that's there when edge-of-field illumination is down to 50%. And so good center-of-field transmission trumps fall-off, even if the latter commences practically immediately away from the center. After all, it's at the field center where I place the object of interest, letting my more sensitive but poorer in resolution peripheral retina deal with the outer field.


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Fomalhaut
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 08/16/08

Loc: Switzerland
Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: BillC]
      #5401339 - 09/03/12 03:50 PM

Quote:

"I probably am a bit more sceptical to advertisement-hypes than people may be in other regions of the world"

Hey Rich, this guy sounds right on the money with what he likes, dislikes, and the Kwrap he tries to avoid! Bet he could make a mean army knife, too.

But, perhaps, he's too skeptical. I'll bet he couldn't be convinved that good optics are baked by elves in a hollow tree.

Cheers,

BillC




Just a few examples:

In the 80ies and 90ies, the main mirrors of the Celestrons were ground out of glass-blocks in the US on Swiss tooling-machines.

Or: About 70% of the roller-coasters standing about the U.S. were constructed by Swiss engineering-companies.

Or: 20 years ago, when I was in HongKong, the electronic ticket-sellers for their public transport system were produced in Switzerland.

Some Americans tend to believe we mainly produce cheese, watches and army knives. But in fact our small country is very efficient in producing electronical and fine-mechanical hi-tech-products which are present in many American institutions (and even military weapon-systems). Don't forget our chemistry, international food-industry (Nestlé) and - mhm - our banks (which I'm a bit less proud of, indeed).

Or: Do you have any idea which place the Higgs-Boson have recently been discovered at?

Chris


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BillC
on a new path
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Reged: 06/04/04

Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: Fomalhaut]
      #5401350 - 09/03/12 03:58 PM

Chris:

I was quite familiar with your country's industry. The Army knife comment was appropriate for a curmudgeon's humor. Beside, I don't eat cheese and can't afford Swiss watches! But the tooth pick and tweezers in my KNIFE . . . well that's special!

BillC


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Gordon Rayner
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Reged: 03/24/07

Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: BillC]
      #5401751 - 09/03/12 08:02 PM

Do not forget Kern and Wild surveying/optical tooling equipment, Wild microscopes , Tesa measuring equipment, Schaublin lathes, Swiss screw machines/turret lathes( such as operated in big Los Angeles shops by persons of dubious immigration status). But I am dating myself into the pre-electronic/pre-CNC era.

A prominent person of the company who produce the 14 x 40 Techno-Stabi for Fujifilm/Fujinon related some years ago that independent measurements on a photometer(s) of light transmission, for a product sold,or to potentially be sold, by Fuji, did not match claimed performance . I do not recall the product or contract details ( if indeed I was told), nor which subcontractor was performing/ to perform the production (if in fact the sub was identified).


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BillC
on a new path
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Reged: 06/04/04

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Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: Gordon Rayner]
      #5401967 - 09/03/12 10:05 PM

Quote:

Do not forget Kern and Wild surveying/optical tooling equipment, Wild microscopes , Tesa measuring equipment, Schaublin lathes, Swiss screw machines/turret lathes( such as operated in big Los Angeles shops by persons of dubious immigration status). But I am dating myself into the pre-electronic/pre-CNC era.

A prominent person of the company who produce the 14 x 40 Techno-Stabi for Fujifilm/Fujinon related some years ago that independent measurements on a photometer(s) of light transmission, for a product sold,or to potentially be sold, by Fuji, did not match claimed performance . I do not recall the product or contract details ( if indeed I was told), nor which subcontractor was performing/ to perform the production (if in fact the sub was identified).




As a former manufacturing tech at a surveying instrument company, I am well aware of those companies. However, I couldn't see where dropping those names would be germaine to the topic at hand. Perhaps you do, but it alludes me. 'Guess I'm just dense.

BillC


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Gordon Rayner
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Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: BillC]
      #5402246 - 09/04/12 01:30 AM

I meant to harmonize with Fomalhaut's last post, rather than to be elusive.

Has anyone seen a photometer for independent axial transmission measurement reporting? Sky&Telescope? Tenmon Guide? Consumer Reports? One of the camera magazines? One of the high-end boating or billfish fishing magazines?

Perhaps one of the prominent contributors, or their employers, to this or the neighbor ATM forum?


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission [Re: Gordon Rayner]
      #5402344 - 09/04/12 04:18 AM

One could fashion a photometer based around a Sky Quality Meter, which reads to 0.01 magnitude, and is repeatable to better than 0.05 magnitude. Accuracy would be good to 95%, and perhaps better.

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HonoluluWalt
sage


Reged: 04/03/09

Re: new Zeiss Victory HT with 95% light transmission new [Re: Joe Ogiba]
      #5731529 - 03/14/13 01:42 AM

Has anyone had any experience with a 10x42 or 8x42 Zeiss Victory HD since this thread became dormant? Are these bins respectable alternatives for someone seeking to use one set of bins for both terrestrial viewing and astronomical viewing? How do they compare with the still-available Zeiss T FLs bins like the 10x56s?

Obviously the added aperture would give the 56mm bins a big advantage, by virtue of the laws of physics (not that aperture is the only factor), but they might be a bit clumsy for birding and other terrestrial activities. However, if there were to be a big enough optical advantage favoring the 56mm Zeiss' I would go ahead and put up with the size. Also, is the Schott High-Transmission glass a big deal, or is it just marketing hype?

What do all of you think regarding the which bins (the 42mm Zeiss Victory HT or the 56mm Zeiss Victory T Fl) would perform as the best all around bins for someone seeking to buy one pair to be used for both terrestrial viewing and astronomical viewing?


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