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nykaver
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Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 66
Loc: Danbury, CT
what's up with SHS yahoo group?
      #3177182 - 06/22/09 09:28 PM

Hi all. I'm interested in building a spectrohelioscope and tried to join the SHS yahoo group. It looks like there's been recent activity based on the number of posts in the last months. I signed up last week but have yet to be approved as a new member by the group owner. I tried to email the group owner directly at spectrohelioscopes-owner (at) yahoogroups (dot) com but the email bounced back.

Sorry for the other group subject matter but I figured there would be some cross-membership.

Thanks,
Paul

--------------------
1958 Schaefer 8" f/8
Unitron 4" Mod 150
Zeiss AS63/840
Zeiss Asiola
Orange C8, C11


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Gene Baraff
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Reged: 03/22/09
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: nykaver]
      #3177219 - 06/22/09 09:47 PM

I had a similar experience in the past - can't remember whether it was with SHS or another Yahoo group

BUT

The moderator had long since abandoned the group so members were free to post but there was nobody around to let any new members in.

I'm not sure, but I think that SHS was moderated by Fred Veio. His posts turn up from time to time on some of the other Yahoo groups. Yahoo Solar Observers is one. Why not try posting there and see what happens?

Fred is almost desperate to find new converts to the SHS building world, and if anybody can, he'll figure a way of making sure you get to know all you should know.

He HAS turned up sometimes within the last three months, but I can't be sure I've seen posts any more recent than that from him.

Gene Baraff


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3177343 - 06/22/09 10:56 PM

I shared some emails with him a year ago or so when I was learning about SHS design. Make sure to read his book. It would be a good subject for a young enterprising astronomer to take up and write a new book. Fred's manuscript is typewritten and therefore is hard to update with easier ways of explaining things. If his book is no longer online let me know and I can email you a copy. Much of the SHS information seems to be at risk of disappearing from the net.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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DesertRat
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Reged: 06/18/06
Posts: 638
Loc: Valley of the Sun
Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3177429 - 06/22/09 11:45 PM

Most of the yahoo groups I've given up on due to poor management and off topic junk. We need to get Fred over here or on the ATM forum. Get his book like Colin says. There are others who have built on his plans, here and over in Europe.

My own recommendation would be to build a solar spectroscope first. If you are already an accomplished builder then maybe you could jump into a SHS. I think Dave Groski is building an SHS currently - he often contributes here on ATM related stuff. If I'm wrong about that I am sure that Dave is knowledgeable about SHS.

I see no problems posting SHS questions here on this forum, many of us are interested in its technology and history, but the ATM forum is your best bet.

Glenn

--------------------
Brandon 94mm f7, Televue TV102 f8.6; GM8
Baader Wedge & Filters, Coronado SM90/BF30
IM715; C11 & C14; G-11 Gemini


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DesertRat]
      #3177445 - 06/22/09 11:57 PM

Dave has helped me a lot in my SHS design. There ar e a few choices to make in the beginning and understanding the compromises they cause later on is important. I chose rotating prisms for mine. That made some unexpected design changes. Fred's book covers it pretty well. Make sure that you slit motion matches the number of folds you have in the light path or your slits will stack images with the wrong edges matching.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Gene Baraff
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Reged: 03/22/09
Posts: 216
Loc: Berkeley Heights, N.J.
Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3177462 - 06/23/09 12:09 AM

Quote:

Make sure that you slit motion matches the number of folds you have in the light path or your slits will stack images with the wrong edges matching.




Do you mean that - since each reflection from a plane mirror in the optical path reverses right to left - if you have an even number of folds (plane mirror reflections), the entrance slit and exit slit have to move in the same direction, wheras if you have an odd number of folds, entrance slit and exit slit should move in the opposite direction?

Gene Baraff


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3177522 - 06/23/09 01:12 AM

That is the idea but I am too tired to consider if you have it right or backwards ( you seem like you think these things out so I bet you have it right). I know many of the early SHSs were built backwards and had to be fixed later in the large observatories.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Gene Baraff
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Reged: 03/22/09
Posts: 216
Loc: Berkeley Heights, N.J.
Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3177802 - 06/23/09 08:23 AM

Quote:

That is the idea but I am too tired to consider if you have it right or backwards ( you seem like you think these things out so I bet you have it right). I know many of the early SHSs were built backwards and had to be fixed later in the large observatories.




No. This was one from the top of the head, so it is 50-50 that I got it wrong. The purpose of my post was to clarify the idea - not the details.

In either case - right or wrong - the effect on the image would be, I think, no different from what observers used to the view through a Newt encounter upon their first view through a refractor with a diagonal ahead of the eyepiece.

The information about an SHG (not an SHS) that I found to be most fascinating was the description of a computer algorithm which is able to remove the effects of both a less than perfect scanning mechanism, and less than perfectly dust-free slits. In spirit, it was related to what the astrophotographers do when they use flats to subtract out noise from their shots. In this case, the "flat" is produced by an averaging algorithm, first in the x direction and then, separately, in the y direction.

The one handles non uniformities in the x direction due to unsteady drive speed. The other handles non uniformities in the y direction due to dust on the slits.

Gene


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nykaver
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Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 66
Loc: Danbury, CT
Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3177814 - 06/23/09 08:30 AM

Thanks for all the advise. Yes I have Fred's manuscript. I received it from him by mail about 15 years ago (very nostalgic). No criticism of Fred but it's not the easiest read, lacks good organization.

I found myself paging through ATM Book 1 a few nights ago and the RWP drawings of the SHS really brought back memories of my youth.

By the way, Fred's original manuscript along with several updates are here http://www.spectrohelioscope.org/net/

It sounds like a long term build if the parts are gathered little by little or through surplus sources. Some of the designs (lower resolution) really sound fairly simple to construct.

Thank you,
Paul

--------------------
1958 Schaefer 8" f/8
Unitron 4" Mod 150
Zeiss AS63/840
Zeiss Asiola
Orange C8, C11


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DAVIDG
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: nykaver]
      #3177941 - 06/23/09 10:07 AM

I would welcome a on going discussion on SHS and the modern take off Spectroheliograph (SHG) that uses a web cam to collect the slit images and add them together to make a 2D image. Both a SHS and SHG have the advantage that one can get to band width of 0.4A or lower and can observe the Sun in any wavelength you wish.
I have compact SHS about 90% finished. One can make one for around $400 or less depending on how good you are at collecting parts.
Here is a quick review of how a SHS works. There are three basic parts 1) a telescope to form the image of a the Sun. A long focus 60mm to 70mm refractor is ideal. So 60x910mm refractor and 2x barlow would work well. I'm using 70mm x 910mm refractor with 2x barlow I got off on Ebay $35. 2) a long focus spectroscope. There are many different styles of spectroscope. I'm using a Littrow type which is made from a 50mm achromat with 1018mm focal length and 1200 lpi grating blazed at 500nm. The white light image of the Sun is focused on the entrance slit of the spectroscope. The spectroscope allows one to view the spectrum of the section of the Sun that is over the entrance slit. A second slit placed over the exit of the spectroscope narrows down the image you can view and defines the bandwidth of the light. The narrower the slit, the tighter the bandwidth. You center up the H-alpha in the exit slit by turning the diffraction grating and narrow the slit to the bandwidth you want. All one would see at this point is dark H-alpha line and as you moved the Sun over the entrance slit, any place on the surface that there was a H-alpha emmission feature, there would be a bright spot. If you looked at the limb, you can widen the exit slit and see prominences. 3) To see the whole disk or part of the disk in 2D you need the third part of the SHS, the image sythesizer. What this is a way of scanning the disk of the Sun over the entrance slit of the spectroscope quickly and taking the slit image produced at the exit slit and stacking them next to each other. It sort of works like a scanning in CRT.
You can have two rotating prism, moving slits, or oscillating mirrors. They all do the same thing. They move the image of the Sun quickly over the entrance slit and then scan the images of the monochrome line images in the eyepiece. It sort of works like a movie projector. So when the top of the Sun is projected onto the entrance slit, there is slit image in monochrome light projected at the top of image in the eyepiece. Then the next image a little farther down, etc, etc. Because of the persistance of vision one sees a 2D image.

- Dave

--------------------
Homemade 'scopes 8"f/7,6" f/5", 6"f/4, 4.25" Schief. 60mm Coronagraph,60mm H-alpha system, 4.25" White-light Solar Newtonian,solar spectroscope, 4.5" f/16 Schupmann Medial refractor, 14 Stellafane awards 7 in optics

Engineering = Taking what you have and making what you need.


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AlienFirstClass
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/13/09
Posts: 701
Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #3190895 - 06/30/09 12:56 PM

Quote:

I would welcome a on going discussion on SHS and the modern take off Spectroheliograph (SHG) that uses a web cam to collect the slit images and add them together to make a 2D image. Both a SHS and SHG have the advantage that one can get to band width of 0.4A or lower and can observe the Sun in any wavelength you wish.
I have compact SHS about 90% finished. One can make one for around $400 or less depending on how good you are at collecting parts.
Here is a quick review of how a SHS works. There are three basic parts 1) a telescope to form the image of a the Sun. A long focus 60mm to 70mm refractor is ideal. So 60x910mm refractor and 2x barlow would work well. I'm using 70mm x 910mm refractor with 2x barlow I got off on Ebay $35. 2) a long focus spectroscope. There are many different styles of spectroscope. I'm using a Littrow type which is made from a 50mm achromat with 1018mm focal length and 1200 lpi grating blazed at 500nm. The white light image of the Sun is focused on the entrance slit of the spectroscope. The spectroscope allows one to view the spectrum of the section of the Sun that is over the entrance slit. A second slit placed over the exit of the spectroscope narrows down the image you can view and defines the bandwidth of the light. The narrower the slit, the tighter the bandwidth. You center up the H-alpha in the exit slit by turning the diffraction grating and narrow the slit to the bandwidth you want. All one would see at this point is dark H-alpha line and as you moved the Sun over the entrance slit, any place on the surface that there was a H-alpha emmission feature, there would be a bright spot. If you looked at the limb, you can widen the exit slit and see prominences. 3) To see the whole disk or part of the disk in 2D you need the third part of the SHS, the image sythesizer. What this is a way of scanning the disk of the Sun over the entrance slit of the spectroscope quickly and taking the slit image produced at the exit slit and stacking them next to each other. It sort of works like a scanning in CRT.
You can have two rotating prism, moving slits, or oscillating mirrors. They all do the same thing. They move the image of the Sun quickly over the entrance slit and then scan the images of the monochrome line images in the eyepiece. It sort of works like a movie projector. So when the top of the Sun is projected onto the entrance slit, there is slit image in monochrome light projected at the top of image in the eyepiece. Then the next image a little farther down, etc, etc. Because of the persistance of vision one sees a 2D image.

- Dave




And how does the webcam version do its image?

I too would love to have an ongoing discussion on these instruments.


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ragebot
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Reged: 08/26/05
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: nykaver]
      #3191060 - 06/30/09 02:09 PM

Hi,

I am in a Yahoo group called spectro-l. Seems like it took a while to get in after I tried to join. Not sure if this is the group you are talking about or not; but you may want to check it out.

--------------------
Meade ETX 90, Meade AR5, Orion ED80, Atlas GT, 8 in Newt, Coronado DS SM40, Garrett 10.5X70, Sigma SD10, SD14, Canon 1D2, Xti, Nikon CP4500, C-14


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DAVIDG
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: ragebot]
      #3191335 - 06/30/09 04:18 PM

"And how does the webcam version do its image?" Here is link on how to make a 2D image with specroheliograph and a webcam. Look under spectroheliographyhttp://www.astrosurf.com/thizy/lhires3/index-en.html
All you do is make a movie the spectral line of interest as the Sun drifts across the entrance slit of the spectroheliograph. From each frame of the movie, the image of line is cut out and stack next to each other. The narrower the slice, the narrower the bandwidth of the image. One can get down to 0.2A without much trouble.

- Dave

--------------------
Homemade 'scopes 8"f/7,6" f/5", 6"f/4, 4.25" Schief. 60mm Coronagraph,60mm H-alpha system, 4.25" White-light Solar Newtonian,solar spectroscope, 4.5" f/16 Schupmann Medial refractor, 14 Stellafane awards 7 in optics

Engineering = Taking what you have and making what you need.


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #3191688 - 06/30/09 07:37 PM

This was done with film in the old days. You would sweep the slit across the film and then develop it.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Gene Baraff
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Reged: 03/22/09
Posts: 216
Loc: Berkeley Heights, N.J.
Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3191877 - 06/30/09 09:39 PM

Quote:

This was done with film in the old days. You would sweep the slit across the film and then develop it.




But there is something elegant in this new wrinkle, wouldn't you say? In the old days, the image of the sun was held stationary by a heliostat or whatever, while both the entrance and exit slits moved in parallel - one across the stationary image of the sun, the other across the stationary piece of film.

Here, the sun drifts, the camcorder records, and the software makes a picture out of the movie.

Gene


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3191905 - 06/30/09 10:04 PM

Unless I miss-understood before that the drive was turned off and the scope drifted across the sun while the film was moved across the slit. I belive this predates the SHS. I think this is what inspired Hale to invent the SHS.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Gene Baraff
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3191927 - 06/30/09 10:19 PM

Quote:

Unless I miss-understood before that the drive was turned off and the scope drifted across the sun while the film was moved across the slit. I belive this predates the SHS. I think this is what inspired Hale to invent the SHS.




I stand corrected, I guess.
This is a great group to be wrong on. I'm now getting pretty good at it.

Gene


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3191944 - 06/30/09 10:27 PM

Dave will correct us both. He advised me to get a book published in the 1890s called "The Sun" and if I remember using a spectroscope aand opening the slit to see promaninces and sweeping the film accross the slit were used by then. Hale invented the SHS much later like the '20s or the '30s in his Masters Thesis.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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DesertRat
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Reged: 06/18/06
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3191958 - 06/30/09 10:38 PM

Gene,

You may be correct after all, sortof. Before Hale built the SHS he built the SHG or spectroheliograph which I believe in some configurations did scan the image by turning the drive off. Other models by him, and Deslandres in France, scanned with a moving slit.

Glenn

--------------------
Brandon 94mm f7, Televue TV102 f8.6; GM8
Baader Wedge & Filters, Coronado SM90/BF30
IM715; C11 & C14; G-11 Gemini


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AlienFirstClass
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/13/09
Posts: 701
Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DesertRat]
      #3192960 - 07/01/09 01:01 PM

How small of a SHS has been built by an amateur?

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