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Shadowalker
Unpretentious Rocket Scientist
   
Reged: 11/23/04
Posts: 3525
Loc: Poplarville, MS, USA
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The writer makes the case that space exploration must be done by robots AND humans. I think she makes the case very well.
Link here.
-------------------- Tom Nicolaides
http://www.first-light.org
My evil self is at that door, and I have no power to stop it
-- Dr. Edward Morbius
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StarmanDan
sage
Reged: 08/27/07
Posts: 391
Loc: China Spring, Texas
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I agree. There is ample room for both types of exploration.
-------------------- "Starman" Dan Doyle
Texas Astronomical Society of Dallas
Central Texas Astronomical Society
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Sgt
sage
   
Reged: 12/17/05
Posts: 484
Loc: Under the southern horn of the...
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monsters vs aliens but less fun... sorry
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Glaucus
member
Reged: 07/12/09
Posts: 42
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I don't think this is a real case for humans in space. Romanticism and all just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how it feels to be on Mars. And only those people that actually walked on the moon knew how it felt to them. They can talk about it and stuff, but no one else will know how they felt. And it must have felt lightly different for all of them.
When humans walk on Mars it will be similar to when people walked on the moon. But when people go back to the moon, no one cases. No random person on the street could tell you how many astronauts are in space right now. It doesn't matter. There is no more romanticism.
And once humans have walked on Mars there is really no where else to go.
Bases and Mars en on the Moon are all possible. But we don't actually know right now that they are going to be productive. And unless they are it won't happen. Or it will happen for 20 or so years and then people will leave.
There is really only space tourism, nothing else. At least nothing else we know about.
The forces involved in human space travel won't change. It will always be fundamentally dangerous and complex.
Right now humans can do things robots can't. But that will change. Humans will never be able to do what robots can. Humans have done little science on the moon. They didn't go for science in the first place. And if it were just for science they would never have gone. Yes, ISS is giving is research. But it's mostly about humans in space or life in space. And it's learning us about international cooperation. ISS only makes sense if you intent to build bases in space.
If you didn't have a a human space program you could build even more robot probes. And once you can build as many as you want it won't really matter how inefficient they are. Even if AI never progressed, robots will be a better option. And we all know robots will one day be smarter than humans. Development in AI right now isn't really impressive. But once they start to use biological neurons in robots things will take off very quickly.
So only space tourism. Space tourism won't do anything for human civilization.
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astrotrf
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/07
Posts: 699
Loc: Rodeo, NM
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Columbus, Magellan, Cook, Scott, Amundsend, Peary, &c., should all have waited until robots could be sent instead. Human exploration is worthless; these guys all proved it.
-------------------- Terry (astrotrf)
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Glaucus
member
Reged: 07/12/09
Posts: 42
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astrotrf, that makes no sense.
When those guys went it was already cheap and initially productive. And even if they had robots back then, humans could have done it better.
You can't argue like this. It's like those people claiming we shouldn't be worried about human energy consumption growing exponentially because we won't know what future discoveries will be made.
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alanon
Nobody tells me anything
   
Reged: 06/29/07
Posts: 2592
Loc: Las Vegas
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Humans can still do it better today. A case in point is the repair of the Hubble. No robot could have done that. I am sorry Claucus, but your case for robotics being better at this time does not wash.
-------------------- Alanon the Wizard (a literary character, not the organization)
Dan
12.5" Obsession #1531
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astrotrf
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/07
Posts: 699
Loc: Rodeo, NM
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Quote:
astrotrf, that makes no sense.
When those guys went it was already cheap and initially productive. And even if they had robots back then, humans could have done it better.
And humans can do it better now. With all due respect to the folks who are running Spirit and Opportunity, and doing a great job of it, how long do you think it would have taken a human geologist to accomplish the same? A week? Two? At the very least, a human would make the few miles between large craters in less than one day rather than the better part of two years, and without getting stuck for weeks in a sand dune, to boot.
And let me draw another example from nonsensical history. If a robot had gone to the Galapagos with the Beagle instead of Darwin, would it have come back home with natural selection or just a collection of dead plants and animals?
Quote:
You can't argue like this. It's like those people claiming we shouldn't be worried about human energy consumption growing exponentially because we won't know what future discoveries will be made.
I guess we're never going to see eye to eye, because I would argue precisely that, along with arguing that increased energy consumption is self-limiting if the energy resources don't materialize and that consumption certainly *won't* grow exponentially if we don't even *try* to produce abundant amounts of cheap energy.
But let's stay strictly on topic here and not hijack this thread for *that* subject.
-------------------- Terry (astrotrf)
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Achernar
Postmaster
   
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 5025
Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
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Most space exploration will have to be done with robots simply because in many cases the environment would be too hostile to send astronauts. I doubt astronauts will ever walk the ground in Venus or on Io because the temperature, pressure or radiation levels are too high for humans to survive. If nothing else, they will be the pathfinders to at least determine if manned missions are possible.
Taras
-------------------- 15-inch F/4.5 Dob under construction
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Charl
member
Reged: 02/08/07
Posts: 84
Loc: Hants, UK
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Hi Terry (astrotrf),
If you have thought of a way of putting a man on Mars running circles around the rovers then please get into contact with NASA a.s.a.p. and enlighten them.
Human exploration is only feasible if the technology exists to make it possible. This was and is the case here on earth and obviously applies to exploration of the solar system as well.
Despite what the proponents of human space exploration claim, the technology to put a man on Mars in the foreseeable future does not exist. This article explains the difficulty of delivering a payload to the surface of Mars. The recent Ares launch test also demonstrates the lack of progress that has been made over the last half century in delivering a payload to space, a period that has seen the biggest technological advancement ever in history.
The case for human space exploration should be put to rest. As technology advances, robotic missions being so much simpler will always overshadow human missions when it comes to exploring and learning more about the solar system and universe.
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Glaucus
member
Reged: 07/12/09
Posts: 42
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Quote:
And let me draw another example from nonsensical history. If a robot had gone to the Galapagos with the Beagle instead of Darwin, would it have come back home with natural selection or just a collection of dead plants and animals?
There is no item called 'natural selection' on Galapagos so robots can never bring it back. And you point it out yourself. Animals are alive. If there were life on Mars it would make more sense to sent humans to explore because life is so much more complex than just rocks lying about.
But by the time we get to send something to a world with life robots will do better than Darwin did.
Yes, humans would do stuff faster than robots right now. But that's irrelevant. What matters is how much money you spend and how many scientific results you get. If robots are too slow you just sent more. If oceanographers want to know more about the ocean floor, 6 kilometers deep, they sent robots. They would never think about going themselves or sending 'oceanauts'. Yes, humans have descended into the Mariana trench. But not do do science.
Humans did an impressive repair of Hubble. But if it wasn't for human space flight there would be money for many new Hubble's lying around. We wouldn't have had a repaired Hubble right now. We would have a James Webb space telescope and more. Also, if you really want to repair space telescopes, you can build them so that robots can service them. They never designed Hubble with that in mind. The only reason to do it was because NASA already had the space shuttle and the well-trained astronauts to carry out such a mission.
I am not saying anything about the future. That's my point. We don't know what will happen in the future technology-wise. I am just saying that we shouldn't spend money into human space flight, taking it away from science, claiming we are investing in the future. That's trickery. It's like saying spending money into space flight was worth it because it gave us new technologies. Or that it is worth it because it creates jobs.
Non-humans spaceflight space science has many major breakthroughs on its name. Human spaceflight has none. No scientist is asking for NASA to sent humans to Mars or to build a base on the moon. The US and NASA have delayed or canceled many major projects that scientists do want. Like the Superconducting Super Collider, LISA, Terrestrial Planet Finder, Constellation-X, a bunch of ground-based telescopes, etc.
I would be all for human space flight if there was an actual goal. Zero-g factories, helium-isotopes on the moon, iridium mines, it's all not yet materializing, to put it mildly. No private investor would put their money into it. They all go for space tourism.
Quote:
I guess we're never going to see eye to eye, because I would argue precisely that,
Ooh wow.
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astrotrf
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/07
Posts: 699
Loc: Rodeo, NM
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Quote:
Despite what the proponents of human space exploration claim, the technology to put a man on Mars in the foreseeable future does not exist. This article explains the difficulty of delivering a payload to the surface of Mars.
Thanks for that link; it's a very interesting survey of the problem. Of course, different folks will have different definitions of "foreseeable future". How many people thought, in 1950, that we'd be landing on the Moon in just 19 years? The requisite technology didn't exist *then*, either.
Quote:
The recent Ares launch test also demonstrates the lack of progress that has been made over the last half century in delivering a payload to space, a period that has seen the biggest technological advancement ever in history.
I hear that. Although sometimes it's not failure to improve over a primitive design or concept, but rather inability to improve on the design's practicality and economics.
I made a cross-country round-trip between Tucson and Madison, WI, this summer, and it was really no different than when I *first* made that trip 35 years ago. Oh, sure, the vehicle design is more collision-conscious now, but beyond that, I drove a vehicle in the same manner with the same controls over the same highways with the same signs. And all of this had existed for about 20 years before my first trip.
In fact, the most significant improvement about the whole thing was the car radio -- now a satellite unit with crystal-clear reception of the same station all the way across the country!
So packing a bunch of chemicals into a container and setting fire to it may be an old concept, but it's also not easy to improve upon.
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The case for human space exploration should be put to rest. As technology advances, robotic missions being so much simpler will always overshadow human missions when it comes to exploring and learning more about the solar system and universe.
Nobody outside of a few engineers and some enthusiasts cared enough about the Surveyor landings on the Moon to be any more than peripherally aware of them, if at all. But perhaps a *billion* people watched Apollo 11 land on the Moon.
Despite any and all rationalization, human exploration is what captures the imagination of mankind. "The Eagle has landed" will be remembered far longer than "Telemetry indicates the robot has touched down".
-------------------- Terry (astrotrf)
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astrotrf
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/07
Posts: 699
Loc: Rodeo, NM
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How many people would have gotten excited if JFK had said, "I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a robot on the Moon and not bothering to return it safely to the Earth."?
The next sound you would have heard would have been the entirety of Congress snoring simultaneously.
-------------------- Terry (astrotrf)
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ColoHank
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 06/07/07
Posts: 513
Loc: western Colorado
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Quote:
Despite any and all rationalization, human exploration is what captures the imagination of mankind. "The Eagle has landed" will be remembered far longer than "Telemetry indicates the robot has touched down".
Is it the purpose of exploration to "capture the imagination of mankind," or to do science? If the former, then human exploration as a form of mass entertainment may be the way to go. If the latter, send robots.
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"Nothing exists but atoms and empty space. Everything else is opinion."
Titus Lucretius Carus 99-55 B.C.
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ColoHank
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 06/07/07
Posts: 513
Loc: western Colorado
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Quote:
Humans can still do it better today. A case in point is the repair of the Hubble. No robot could have done that. I am sorry Claucus, but your case for robotics being better at this time does not wash.
Apples and oranges. Repairing the Hubble wasn't exploration, and it wasn't science. It was a technical task, like fixing a refrigerator or an automatic transmission, albeit in an extremely hostile and therefore demanding environment.
The Hubble is the robot that, year in and year out, has produced those spectacular images of the heavens and provided those measurements that have expanded our knowledge of the universe.
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Questar 3.5 standard - pyrex and BB coatings
Powerguide II
8mm, 12mm, 16mm, 24mm and 32mm Brandons
modified Bogen 3030 w/ homebuilt wedge
Homebuilt Galileo scope and very large and ugly homemade tripod
other odds and ends, including iPod Touch with StarMap Pro (what a marvelous combo)...
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"Nothing exists but atoms and empty space. Everything else is opinion."
Titus Lucretius Carus 99-55 B.C.
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groz
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/14/07
Posts: 1074
Loc: Duncan, BC
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Quote:
Quote:
Despite what the proponents of human space exploration claim, the technology to put a man on Mars in the foreseeable future does not exist. This article explains the difficulty of delivering a payload to the surface of Mars.
Thanks for that link; it's a very interesting survey of the problem. Of course, different folks will have different definitions of "foreseeable future". How many people thought, in 1950, that we'd be landing on the Moon in just 19 years? The requisite technology didn't exist *then*, either.
Many many years ago, I worked on a project where we did a preliminary study of a bunch of problems in this area. The question to be answered was, what gives the most 'bang for the buck' in terms of choosing a destination for various scientific missions. The comparison was, mars vs moon as destination. The specific problem was, utilizing a given launcher, what scientific payload could be soft landed on the surface.
So, the first thing we did was to start by analyzing trajectories, and delta-V requirements for various options. We chose to use a low orbit kick off point, rather than a direct launch 'on course'. The rationale, it adds a little to the fuel requirements for a burn to stabilize the low orbit kick off, but, it removes a lot of the tight launch window constraints of a direct on course launch. The rationale was similar to that used for the apollo missions. In this particular scenario, the launch mass for both missions was deemed identical, so, it follows that you end up with identical mass in the parking orbit prior to kick off. Fuel consumed from the pad to the parking orbit is called X.
For the next stage, we have two options. First option, fuel required for a kick off to a trajectory that _just_ barly goes over the top and into a lunar descent. Call this Y1. On the second side of the equation, fuel required to kick out of the parking orbit, and onto a hallman trajectory for mars. Call this Y2.
For the third part of the analysis, we looked at the various landing requirements. We made a rather large simplifying assumption at this point, but, it's close enough to be valid for a first approximation. For the mars lander, a given amount of mass would be required for the landing system, heat shields, parachutes, etc. For the lunar lander, mass would be required for reaction engines, and the landing gear. The simplifying assumption, by the time all was said and done, these would be similar quantities of mass. The martian lander would use aerobraking for decelaration, the lunar lander needed to fire the engine.
Fuel requirements for the lunar lander were pretty strait forward to calculate, and, this amount of mass is designated Z1. For the martian lander, deceleration was mostly via aerobraking, so the fuel requirements for this stage would be designated Z2, but, Z2=0.
So, now the final big number that matters, how much scientific payload is delivered 'on station' for similar launchers. All up launch mass is designated as A, and for both missions, A is the same number. For the lunar payload, calculation is now P1=A-X-Y1-Z1. For the martian payload, P2=A-X-Y2-Z2. Y2 is a little larger than Y1, but, surprisingly, it's not a huge factor larger. Z1 is HUGE in comparison to Z2, which is zero. Y2+Z2 turns out to be much smaller than Y1+Z1.
After crunching all the numbers, and interesting conclusion comes out of it all. P2 > P1 for pretty much every scenario, and not just a little bit larger, we are talking factors of 2 and 3. Bottom line, with a given launcher sitting on the pad, a larger scientific payload can be delivered to the surface of mars, than the surface of the moon. Trajectory analysis will tell you, it takes a lot longer to get there, but, with aerobraking on the other end, and no aerobraking available on the moon, you will need a lot more fuel on the pad if destination is moon, leaving less mass available for payload, because the lifting ability of the launcher is fixed. The lunar soft landing requires a higher fuel/payload ratio than the martian soft lander.
This was a very interesting conclusion for me at the time, because I found it counter intuitive. For a one way robotic mission, mars is a more cost effective destination than the moon, in terms of dollars spent per kilo of payload on station after the soft landing.
It was 20+ years ago when we did this, so, my mind is surely fuzzy on some of the specific details, but, the conclusion I do remember very clearly. For one way robotic missions, using current propulsion technology, mars is the more interesting destination, a larger payload can be soft landed on mars than the moon, for similar launch costs.
Keep also in mind, we were working with the assumption that payloads would be relatively inert enroute, so, there was no consideration for enroute consumeables, which means enroute time doesn't make a material difference in mass budget allocation. If you add in a factor for consumeables, then each equation gets another factor of dc(T) (rate of consumption multiplied by enroute time), and the time factor of the enroute leg to mars suddenly makes it not only an unappealing target, depending on the value for dc (rate of consumption), it likely becomes an unnatainable target.
But the real thing I realize typing this all in from memory, all of these numbers essentially boil down to the efficiency of propulsion as it was back then. To me, the sad part is, that hasn't changed much since then, and aside from a few incremental adjustments in efficiency factors here and there, those results are just as valid today as they were then. We can refine chemical rockets forever, but, they are limited by capability.
Until there is a breakthru in propulsion technology, which provides an order of magnitude of improvement in mass efficiency for propulsion, we aren't going anywhere, but, we can send out some one way probes. The real benefit of that, when the propulsion breakthru comes, we will likely know where we want to go, and why. Sail did eventually give way to steam, and, that was ultimately replaced by even more efficient propulsion. The chemical rockets will eventually end up in the museums, but for now, it's all there is.
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MMICKELS
Aluminum Knight
   
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 27849
Loc: The Land of Shake and Bake
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Just my simplistic take, but seems to me the robot is more economical and the human is more versatile, so I guess it boils down to the mission.
-------------------- Mark
"Never eat more than you can lift"
Miss Piggy
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
   
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 12939
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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As robotic technology continues to improve, the time will come when robots will be able to do more and more tasks more efficiently than humans. A point will be reached when there's nothing a human can't do on Earth that a robot couldn't do faster and more efficiently.
What then? If the superiority of robots in space is a reason for us not to send humans there, what will we conclude when robots are superior for tasks on Earth as well?
Somehow I'm thinking that humans vs robots is the wrong argument from the very start.
-------------------- "Since the process of science generates more mysteries than it solves, I predict that we'll never learn everything: and we'll continue to generate new ignorance at the speed of knowledge."
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davidpitre
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 05/10/05
Posts: 1824
Loc: Central Texas
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Quote:
Somehow I'm thinking that humans vs robots is the wrong argument from the very start.
Well with the amount of funding presently and in the near future available to NASA, I believe that this is in fact the central, and most important question. In my opinion, much of the question boils down to what is the most that can be done with the available money. With the US spending at record deficits, I don't see a big extra chunk of change being thrown to NASA in the next 10 years. That robotic missions can do much much more science for the same amount of limited money seems beyond debate.
-------------------- David
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jayscheuerle
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/16/06
Posts: 4071
Loc: S. Philadelphia, PA
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Will we be able to send people to Mars (the rocketry is the easiest part of this equation) before robotic technology makes this scientifically unnecessary?
If you look at advancements made in each category over the past 50 years, the answer is obvious. - j
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