Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page


Observing >> Solar

Pages: 1 | 2 | (show all)
Gene Baraff
sage, 1930-2010, Rest In Peace


Reged: 03/22/09
Posts: 265
Loc: Berkeley Heights, N.J.
Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new
      #3435927 - 11/08/09 08:04 AM

The question below is a technical one, but is one that has practical consequences for me.

Everyone agrees that putting a second etalon (the "Double-Stack") atop a first etalon (the "Single Stack") reduces the band pass width (b.p.w.) of the composite system compared to the b.p.w. of the single one alone.

Many people here and elsewhere have said that when the factory (Coronado or Lunt) sends out a factory matched pair, they designate the etalon which requires the least tilt to be used as the Single Stack and the other - the one that require more tilt - to be used as the Double Stack.

Now - the question:

Have any of you observed using the Double-Stack etalon by itself (in front of a BF of course)? If you have, have you been able to make an estimate of how the b.p.w. of the Double Stack (by itself) compares to the b.p.w of the single stack?

I ask this because it occured to me that from a sales efficiency point of view, it would make perfect sense to choose the two filters so that the one with the larger b.p.w. is ALWAYS selected to be the Double Stacker. Doing so would cause no harm to the customer if the filters were used in the prescribed order, but might make it difficult for someone to use a Double Stack by itself.

I'm really interested in the ideas and the experience of all of you out there. I've interacted with enough of you to know that the answer is there among you.

Thanks in advance.

Gene Baraff

Edited by Gene Baraff (11/08/09 09:44 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Gene Baraff
sage, 1930-2010, Rest In Peace


Reged: 03/22/09
Posts: 265
Loc: Berkeley Heights, N.J.
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3436550 - 11/08/09 02:48 PM

I guess I'll have to be the first to answer my own question - now that I have some data. But two examples - see below - are not enough to confirm a supposition.

First datum: Stephen Ramsden told me a while back of a comparison he had done on two factory-matched Lunt 50mm filters. He reported that the one designated for Double-Stack did not have as tight a band pass as did the one designated for Single Stack.

Second Datum: My Coronado SM40 Factory matched set: I bought an adapter to allow mounting the Double Stack filter where the Single Stack filter would normally attach.

I judge the band pass to be tighter for the designated Single Stacker than for the double. I judge this based on two things: First, the amount of surface detail visible with the Double Stcker alone is less than the amount of detail visible with the Single Stacker alone.

Secondly, the maximum amount of darkening (the dip in brightness from off-band to on-band) seems to be greater with the single stacker than with th e Double Stacker. This would be consistent with a narrower band pass for the Single Stacker.

I'd still like to get answers from anybody else out there who has had experience with this.

Gene Baraff


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
swisswalter
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 03/29/09
Posts: 984
Loc: Eastern-Switzerland
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3436653 - 11/08/09 03:55 PM

hi gene

i would like to give you some answers, but i have only the experience with double stack on the lunt 60 with a ls50 and the ls50 single on other scopes with the bf 1200.

i would say that the lunt 60 in ss gives the same view as the LS 50 on a tak 102 with the BF 1200

walter

--------------------
only dust in the wind, TAK on GM8, Lunt 60DS, DMK's, greenhorn, but as a golfer used to be humble


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Gene Baraff
sage, 1930-2010, Rest In Peace


Reged: 03/22/09
Posts: 265
Loc: Berkeley Heights, N.J.
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: swisswalter]
      #3436782 - 11/08/09 05:17 PM

Walter:

Thank you for answering. You made an interesting comment that tells me something about the design of the Lunt 60 scope. But as you realize, it does not directly answer my question.

BTW: Glad to learn (from the Yahoo forum) that your scope has been succesfully repaired and returned to you.

Gene Baraff


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Solar B
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/28/07
Posts: 1009
Loc: By Edinburgh , Scotland
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3436983 - 11/08/09 07:34 PM

I think Manufacturers make wild Bandwidth claims about their
single or DS units which cannot be proven,i have tried a few DS Lunt combinations but never thought that any got to the 0.5A or 0.55A level,in my opinion.
A factory matched unit will be optimised for just that and will not operate as well by itself.
I know that Solarscope matched etalons have a completely different finish to the their single units,i guess so as no one can get them mixed up.

Brian

--------------------
" Gentlemen only ever use Refractors "


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BYoesle
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 06/12/04
Posts: 1191
Loc: Goldendale, WA USA
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Solar B]
      #3437421 - 11/09/09 02:10 AM

My understanding of the matching process at Coronado was that they selected DS etalons from a group of regular production filters on-hand (all intended to be primary etalons) to see which one required the least amount of tilt to remove secondary relflections with your originally purchased etalon. I double-stacked my Coronado original SM 90 with a second off-the-shelf SM 90 sans blocking filter. To the best of my knowledge the actual etalon in a DS filter is as identical to any other etalon as can be -- and there is some random band-pass variation that occurs normally between any two etalons.

What may also lie at the heart of the matter is the way the etalon sits and is secured in its mechanical housing. My understanding is that a flexible fixative simialr to silicone may be used to seat the etalon in its housing, which may allow for the etalon to shift slightly -- thus requireing slightly differing mechanical tilts to bring the etalon on-band. Whenever an etalon is tilted from an optical normal to bring it on-band, the pass-band becomes widened and blue-shifted. So this may account for why an etalon pair is tested to see which of the two requires the least amount of tilt to be on-band and therefore becomes the "primary" closest to the objective etalon.

All the factory-matched DS etalons from Coronado that I'm aware of can operate as single etalons and incorporate an ERF for this purpose. I believe the Solar Scope DS etalons are not supplied with an ERF, and therefore can't be used alone, and this may be why they are given a different distinguishing finish.

--------------------
Bob Yoesle

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars...
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.


Desiderata



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Gene Baraff
sage, 1930-2010, Rest In Peace


Reged: 03/22/09
Posts: 265
Loc: Berkeley Heights, N.J.
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: BYoesle]
      #3437630 - 11/09/09 08:39 AM

Thank you.

I appreciate what you have written, agree with most of it, stil have some points of disagreement that I will discuss with you privately in a PM to you later today.

I'm still desperate to get more real life input from other forum members, as to whether their factory matched filter for double stack (used as a single etalon in front of a blocking filter) has a wider, equal, or sharper band pass width than does their single stack.

Thank you again, Bob, because what you wrote is very useful.

Gene Baraff


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
colinsk
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/17/08
Posts: 2170
Loc: CA
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3441076 - 11/10/09 09:46 PM

I have my 50mm Lunt etalon on my TV-76 and I also have a Lunt LS60. The question to me was weather having the etalon ion the front helped in a significant way over having it in a collimated beam. My conclusion is that the bandpass width is pretty close. The bandpass frequency from the center to the edge is better on the full aperture etalon. If I was doing studies this would be important but for just enjoying the EP it is not very noticeable. (I find the outside of my LS60 to be blue shifted compared with the center.)

I have been using a Solar Spectrum .6A filter and it is quite interesting to see the differences in the manufactures claims about bandpass. I am planning to write this up later in a more general post about the consequences of placing an etalon inside a telescope. I will also talk about how thermal stability can be controlled in mica etalons.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kobayashi
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/10/08
Posts: 735
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: colinsk]
      #3441235 - 11/10/09 11:22 PM

Quote:

The question to me was weather having the etalon ion the front helped in a significant way over having it in a collimated beam.



I think you mean a telecentric beam? The beam is collimated before it hits the telescope, so a front-mounted etalon is in a collimated beam.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Keith Howlett
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 1019
Loc: Northumberland, UK
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: colinsk]
      #3441397 - 11/11/09 02:23 AM

Hi Colin,

I'll look forward to the new article.

Cheers,

Keith


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Solar B
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/28/07
Posts: 1009
Loc: By Edinburgh , Scotland
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Keith Howlett]
      #3441430 - 11/11/09 03:44 AM

Me to Colin

Brian

--------------------
" Gentlemen only ever use Refractors "


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Gene Baraff
sage, 1930-2010, Rest In Peace


Reged: 03/22/09
Posts: 265
Loc: Berkeley Heights, N.J.
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters [Re: Kobayashi]
      #3441888 - 11/11/09 11:44 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The question to me was whether having the etalon ion the front helped in a significant way over having it in a collimated beam.



I think you mean a telecentric beam? The beam is collimated before it hits the telescope, so a front-mounted etalon is in a collimated beam.




Colin and I had a go-round on the exact meaning of "telecentric" in this usage. He tried his best to educate me but I finally gave up.

Would YOU be willing to explain it to me, or to tell me the references YOU found useful in getting to understand the concept?

Thanks in advance.

Gene Baraff


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Gene Baraff
sage, 1930-2010, Rest In Peace


Reged: 03/22/09
Posts: 265
Loc: Berkeley Heights, N.J.
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: colinsk]
      #3441896 - 11/11/09 11:48 AM

Quote:

The bandpass frequency from the center to the edge is better on the full aperture etalon. I find the outside of my LS60 to be blue shifted compared with the center.






This is exactly what you would expect if the internal etalon is set pretty square to the optical axis, isn't it?

Gene


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BYoesle
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 06/12/04
Posts: 1191
Loc: Goldendale, WA USA
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Solar B]
      #3441902 - 11/11/09 11:51 AM

For reference, I thought I'd repost an explanation on how double-stacking reduces bandwidth from David Lunt, original founder of Coronado:

The result of two identical etalon filters in series is a convolution of the transmission bands of each. The single etalon has a passband shape which is Gaussian. If the bandwidth at 50% of maximum transmittance is w, then that at 10% of Tmax is 3.5w and that at 1% Tmax is 10w. The transmittance at any point in the spectrum of the stacked pair is T squared, where T is the transmittance of the single filter. The most important characteristic is that the bandwidth is reduced by the square root of 2. Given two etalons with bandwidths of 0.7A, the combined bandwidth becomes 0.5A, and the 1% bandwidth (or the "tails" of the passband) are reduced from 7A wide to ~1.8A. Thus the effect is to narrow the actual bandwidth and increase the visibility of chromospheric detail, while the steeper shape of the passband reduces the out of band transmission, thus significantly improving contrast.

Mr. Lunt also addressed the use of external (front mounted) etalons vs. internally located etalons:

[For front mounted etalons] any rays coming from the Sun traverse the etalon at no more than 0.26 degrees. Thus the etalon works absolutely at its nominal performance. In the Helios [which uses an internal module for the etalon], these angles can be up to 0.4 degrees and, although this is perfectly adequate for an etalon of this type, I think that, once you have become accustomed to observing with both instruments, you will notice the difference... The off-axis degradation you refer to in the Helios is a result of the filter being configured within the optical train. In this position one can not keep the various incident ray angles as small as when it is mounted on the front. The maximum angle that such a filter will accept is 0.5 degrees. With low power in the Helios, one could have an apparent field of considerably greater than this and so the Sun would only be in H-alpha within the central 0.5 degrees. This problem, of course, disappears when the power is increased and one only has maybe 0.5 degrees visible anyway.

--------------------
Bob Yoesle

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars...
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.


Desiderata



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kobayashi
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/10/08
Posts: 735
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3442142 - 11/11/09 01:45 PM

Quote:

Colin and I had a go-round on the exact meaning of "telecentric" in this usage. He tried his best to educate me but I finally gave up.

Would YOU be willing to explain it to me, or to tell me the references YOU found useful in getting to understand the concept?




I don't know what exactly was the original difficulty/disagreement, so I'll try to give an overview of using etalons.

A fabry-perot etalon is basically just two parallel optical surfaces, making up an interference filter. But the peak wavelength shifts as the angle between the beam and etalon is changed. So you want all your light to pass through the etalon at the same angle (i.e. parallel beam).

That's easy if you're observing a point source (e.g. a star). The light from the point source is parallel to begin with, so you can just mount the etalon in front of the telescope. But a big etalon is very expensive, so you would use a telescope to concentrate the light, collimate the beam again (i.e. make it parallel), and pass it through a small etalon:



But the sun is not a point source, it is in fact a very large extended source. So if the etalon is tuned to H-alpha at the center of the sun, it's not tuned properly for the limb. As a result, there is a wavelength shift from disk center (blue rays in diagram) to the limb (red rays):



Note here, that not only is the red ray at an angle, but this angle is increased by the telescope/collimator setup (i.e. larger at the etalon than in front of the telescope). This is unavoidable; if you try to reduce the size of the beam, the ray angle increase - that is, the image is magnified. (This is the same reason why there is a minimum magnification for a given telescope aperture - if you go lower, the light won't all fit through your pupil.) The smaller the etalon, the more severe the tilt of the red rays, and the more severe the wavelength shift. Or to think of it another way - for a given size etalon, the larger the telescope, the more severe the wavelength shift (because the light must be concentrated/magnified more to fit the given etalon).

So how much tilt can we tolerate? I won't go into the math, but at 1/4 of a degree, it becomes borderline unbearable. Which is the radius of the Sun, so we might as well just put the etalon in front of the telescope. This also simplifies the telescope design, so that's why Coronado, etc. do this:



This works pretty well for visual observation. It gives excellent bandpass at the center of the field of view, and tolerable view towards the edge of the field. If you want to observe a prominence on the limb, you just move the telescope and center it in the eyepiece. But it's not so great for photography or scientific observations; for those purposes, you want a very uniform view across the field.

So how do you make sure the rays from the limb passes through the etalon at the same angle as the rays from disk center? Ideally we want something that behaves like this:



But there is no such magical optical device. It's against the laws of thermodynamics, because such a device would be able to take a diffuse light source, turn it into a perfectly parallel beam, which can then be focused into a tiny spot that gets hotter than the original light source.

SO what's the best thing that we can actually build? It's called a telecentric lens. A telecentric lens is not a collimating lens, but a focusing lens. What makes it "telecentric" is the fact that the bundle of red rays is NOT tilted; it's at the same angle as the bundle of blue rays.



Because the rays from a given point (e.g. the two blue rays) are not parallel, there will be some wavelength shift. The shift depends on which part of the telescope the ray passed; that means even if you observe a point source, the image will be made up of rays whose peak wavelength is slightly shifted by different amounts. In other words, the bandpass is broadened, or smeared. But at least the rays from the limb have the exact same amount of broadning.

Note that the etalon is near (or at) an image plane. So the size of the etalon translates to the size of the field of view. You can reduce the bandpass broadning by reducing the telescope aperture, or by increasing the magnification of the telescope/telecentric system. Though if you increase the magnification, you'll need a larger etalon to cover the same field of view.

That's the very brief overview of the issues involved. Please feel free to ask questions so I know which areas I should explain in further detail.

Edited by Kobayashi (11/11/09 02:30 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kobayashi
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/10/08
Posts: 735
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Kobayashi]
      #3442185 - 11/11/09 02:05 PM

Actually that was a pretty bad diagram for a telecentric lens. In reality it would look something like this:



And for comparison, here is what a simple refocusing lens looks like. If you were to use this on an etalon, you'd get both field-angle effect AND bandpass broadning:



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BYoesle
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 06/12/04
Posts: 1191
Loc: Goldendale, WA USA
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Kobayashi]
      #3442277 - 11/11/09 02:56 PM

Excellent discussion and diagrams Ken!

Coronado and Lunt seem to use negative collimators for their internal etalons (helps keeps the OTA short), while DayStar and Solar Spectrum filters are most often used with telecentrics (or apertures stopped down to f30+)...

--------------------
Bob Yoesle

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars...
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.


Desiderata



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Gene Baraff
sage, 1930-2010, Rest In Peace


Reged: 03/22/09
Posts: 265
Loc: Berkeley Heights, N.J.
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: BYoesle]
      #3442320 - 11/11/09 03:24 PM

Quote:

For reference, I thought I'd repost an explanation on how double-stacking reduces bandwidth from David Lunt, original founder of Coronado:

The result of two identical etalon filters in series is a convolution of the transmission bands of each. The single etalon has a passband shape which is Gaussian.




Bob,

I know it's David Lunt who's speaking but, in this case, he mis-spoke slightly.

The pass band shape is not Gaussian - rather it's Lorentzian. Both curves are characterized by a peak wavelength, a peak transmission and a half width, but they differ in shape. The Gaussian is much more opaque in the wings than the Lorentzian.

The spirit of what Mr. Lunt says is correct in every detail. It's just that the numbers pertaining to the line shape and the numbers pertainning to double stacking are only illustrative here.

Gene Baraff


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Gene Baraff
sage, 1930-2010, Rest In Peace


Reged: 03/22/09
Posts: 265
Loc: Berkeley Heights, N.J.
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Kobayashi]
      #3442347 - 11/11/09 03:36 PM

Ken,

That was a wonderful explanation I think. It seemed to make sense when I first read it. To REALLY understand it, I'll have to work through it in full detail, which I will. Then, if I still have questions, I'll take you up on your offer to explain further.

At the simplest level, it looks like you are trading off field angle for instrument angle (Colin K's terminology, if I remember correctly.) in an attempt to get the overall combination of the two less than they would be for a collimated beam. (Collimated beam, in this language would have no instrument angle spread but would be all field angle spread.)

Is that description in the right neighborhood?

Gene Baraff


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
colinsk
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/17/08
Posts: 2170
Loc: CA
Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Kobayashi]
      #3442358 - 11/11/09 03:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The question to me was weather having the etalon ion the front helped in a significant way over having it in a collimated beam.



I think you mean a telecentric beam? The beam is collimated before it hits the telescope, so a front-mounted etalon is in a collimated beam.




I guess I should call it a re-collimated beam in my LS60. The Solar Spectrum is truely telecentric with a telecentric system designed for the objective.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | (show all)


Extra information
10 registered and 5 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Don W, spaceydee 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 923

Jump to

CN Forums Home



Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics