Ortensio
member
Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 17
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Hello, I have being following this board for a while and trying to learn as much as possible before purchasing Astronomical Binoculars. I have got 20-90x65 cheap chinese binos and, despite of the unuseful zoom, I get amazed when watching through them into my mid-polluted city's sky. Now I have the possibility to purchase an old used 150mm Fujinos. Owner says they are marine binoculars and they have been fully refurbished, etc, etc. He are asking for about 1700$. I am attaching actual picture so you will be able to tell me whether these binos really worth:
 Regards.
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GaryHeath
super member
Reged: 08/13/09
Posts: 118
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Although I could not quote you an exact value, IMO: If as advertised (optics are as good as the cosmetics appear and seller states) then yes .... that is a good priced for these binos, and if I knew were they were I would pay that in a heartbeat.  Best regards,
Gary
-------------------- For equipment see: My Gallery
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 12909
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Welcome Ortensio !
That quoted price of $1700 seems remarkable LOW for such an instrument .
My hunch is that it will probably provide superior views to a 20 - 90 x 65 Chinese zoom model , and especially if it was CHEAP ! :-)
Please keep in mind the sheer WEIGHT and SIZE of these !!
You are going to have to build or buy something SERIOUS on which to mount it !
Good luck !
Kenny
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Ortensio
member
Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 17
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Thank you for your replies.
I was searching a bit and found these binos are quite old, they were built in the 50s, so are them comparable to "modern" 150mm Fujinos? (optic quality, coatings..)
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edwincjones
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 5671
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What is the weight?
Some of the old marine fujis are VERY heavy and my need a stronger mount (which may cost more than the binoculars).
edj
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n w arkansas
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GaryHeath
super member
Reged: 08/13/09
Posts: 118
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I can't speak to comparative optical quality, but if the coatings are the original type (or even present) then they will not likely be as good as the newer ones, and I have no idea what Fujinon would charge to strip and re-coat them with current coatings .... assuming they can/will.
If serious about them, contact/email the picture to Baker Marine to see if they can provide any more 'hard fact' info on these (value, weight, optic's and etc.)
Their email link can be found here:
http://www.bakermarineusa.com/index.php?id=19
You may have a Fujinon service shop closer, that you would prefer to ask, or get a second opinion from.
Once again, if as advertised I'd pay the asking price no problem ..... even if that are a tad on the "fatty" side of the scale.
So if you pass, and they are in the Americas please PM me with the contact info.
Best regards,
Gary
-------------------- For equipment see: My Gallery
Edited by GaryHeath (11/02/09 07:56 PM)
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RichD
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 567
Loc: Derbyshire, UK
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Is that meibo I see on the chrome plate? beautiful condition, at least externally.
1700 seems very cheap, especially after a full refurb. Did the early meibos have single Mg coatings?
-------------------- Clear skies
Rich
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GaryHeath
super member
Reged: 08/13/09
Posts: 118
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By way of value, here is a set (actually listed as 3 available) of Meibo 15X80's on ebay UK:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fuji-Meibo-Japanese-Naval-Binoculars-with-Tripod_W0QQitemZ200394010636QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Antiques_Marine_RL
The "buy it now" of £2,995/offer is about $4,913 US as of today, so the $1700 for the 150's is kinda looking like a 'Craig's list sorta thing'. 
Exciting though ............... 
Best regards,
Gary
-------------------- For equipment see: My Gallery
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DJB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 1590
Loc: Lisle NY
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Hi Ortensio,
Wow! I think the price is right, from an older TV show.
Personally, I do not care for zooms. However, if the optics are clean (mechanically) and clear, I think it's a great "Deal or no Deal."
I am wondering why the cost is what it is. Umhh.
Best regards, Dave.
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Gordon Rayner
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 03/24/07
Posts: 971
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I have worked in and out of the illustrated 25 x 150 model since a few months after they were introduced , in 1973, and have used them for astronomy since that time. They were designed in the early 1970's, after a request by Ben Ichiyasu (RIP), whom I met about 1973 or 1974, for something bigger than the by then well-worn WW II Japanese military 20 x 120 , 15 x 120 ( highly prized, huge eyepieces and prisms), and others, including the postwar Nikon 20 x 120, essentially the same as a WW II Nikko 20 x 120, but with MgF2 coatings, in the tuna industry. Mr. Ichiyasu learned Japanese in the US Army during WW II, according to a long-ago conversation with his son.
The precursor of Fuji Photo Optical was Enomoto Kogaku, whose wartime mark is the same as the Star of David, with E.K. inside it. There may have been a 25 x 150 from them during the war. I have never seen one, though I have seen Nikko 25 x 150, of a different design. The illustrated model may have been a rebirth, rather than a completely new design. But the preceding speculation about the 1950's is not true, to the best of my knowledge .
There were EBC multicoatings on all air-glass surfaces in the 25 x 150 , since the 1973 or 1972 start, from my observation , and from the published specifications and promotional literature of that time. I am quite familiar with the internal surfaces of early specimens. The contrary speculation is erroneous. Cleaning multilayers requires more techniques and effort than single layer MgF2. The 15 x 80 has had single layer coatings in all postwar examples I have seen . I have several Fuji Meibo 25 x 150 I, and at least three of the Fuji Meibo 15 x 80. The 15 x 80 is used by the Coast Guard. I do not know if the current production of those is multilayer coated on all surfaces, or not. They have very good images across the field, and lots of eye relief, more than the 25 x 150 eye relief. The optics of the current Fuji 25 x 150 MT-SX, are the same as the optics of the trunnion version, I was told by the company at the time the current version was introduced, in the late 1980's or about 1990, as I recall. The trunnionless current version ones I have worked upon may have had slightly different coatings than the trunnion model, as there seemed to be a slight difference in the color of the residual reflections. I wonder what changes may have been required by the silly "no lead(Pb) in glass" regulations. A Japanese designer told me that there "are problems" several years ago at the Shot Show.
The early 25 x 150 trunnion model had brass focusing rings facing aluminum male multiple threads and near to aluminum pushrings, and several other brass-to aluminum interfaces, in the IPD bearings, and at the body-trunnion junctions. The resulting galvanic corrosion with the saltwater spray electrolyte lead to lots of profitable repair work for me . I machined Delrin and Celcon isolation rings and IPD link parts at an early stage. I showed the corrosion to an Ichiyasu around 1974 or 1975, and soon thereafter some brass was replaced by aluminum ,and the IPD link pivots became stainless steel. The brass trunnions were replaced by an aluminum- SS mixed assembly, perhaps a few years later. A few pounds were eliminated by these changes. I have a box of corroded pushrings and brass trunnions ( most shipboard mounts do not use the trunnions. The binoculars rest on thick elastic cords). The Inca doorway trapezoid shaped nameplate, SS, covers an aluminum coverplate for the dessicant bag housing. The early converplate screws were brass. Galvanic corrosion between dissimilar metals in the presence of seawater spray resulted in heavy pitting of the coverplastes. The brass screws became cemented in place by the corrosion product of the aluminum, in spite of the anodization of the aluminum. I have a collection of the trapezoidal stainless steel nameplates.
Speaking of anodization, those binoculars are an example of the superiority of the chromic acid process to the sulfuric acid process, in a marine environment, as was stated in the Fuji Meibo advertising. The Japanese production engineers got that part of the marine corrosion problem right. But I am glad that they used those brass-aluminum interfaces, particularly in the bearings, as that has caused much business for me. The early brass focus mechanism-aluminum prism housing coverplate corrosion was a big hassle. I lapped two in with Clover( automotive valve) lapping compound, in Latin America, about two years ago. I had filled the gaps and holes with metal-filled epoxy resin
Others attempted to permanently seal the rings and spacers around the objective barrel, using RTV silicone rubber, in close proximity to , or possibly even simultaneously applied, grease. That attempt only resulted in lots of unneccesary trouble in cleanup before eventually inevitable re-collimation after rough handling. There are inevitable clearances in lens assemblies of reasonable cost, for thermal reasons . There is considerably inertia in those large objective lens elements, and they move, if only slightly. during bumps, after time and thermal cycling. The resulting non-parallelism of the two optical axes can be easily seen with a handheld comparator. The current 25 x 150 version has a different system, prism sliding. The problem there is obtaining sufficiently fine motion. There is a lower limit to the pitch of available small screws for a compact mechanism. Eccentric rings and barrels , though more complicated to produce and to interface to each other precisely, allow finer adjustment by the technician. The WW II Nikko 18.8 x 150 ( I have one, used by David Rotbart to co-discover a comet ( with Ludmila Pajdusakova (later Mrkosova), of Skalnate Pleso Observatory in Slovakia. She used a WW II Zeiss 25 x 100, 60 deg. inclined view), and the Nikko 22.5& 30 x 180mm. used prism plate tilting.
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Gordon Rayner
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 03/24/07
Posts: 971
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?? The 25 x 150 is not a zoom.
Those eyecups are uncomfortable on most Caucasian faces, and I have never heard of any fishermen using them for long. The WW II Navy rangefinder "Lone Ranger" style two hole masks can be stretched to fit.
I made dozens of metal parts to mate those binoculars, and the current version, to my copies of the WW II Zeiss 25 x 100 headrest, which is a comfortable shape, more comfortable than the shape used with the more often seen Busch design 10 x 80, 45 deg. inclined, Flak tracking binocular used by the female Luftwaffe auxiliaries night after night.
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edwincjones
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 5671
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thank you Gordon for the information the history is great to know
edj
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n w arkansas
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edwincjones
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 5671
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what are they really worth?
As Gary has implied, they are worth it to him- as a collectable? If your intent is observing, then you must add the cost of a mount and any possible repair. So, the total cost to you remains unclear.
edj
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n w arkansas
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 12909
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Very interesting read , Gordon .
Amongst other things , it's reassuring to learn that after all , there are such things as " reasonable coasts " ! :-)
Kenny
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Ortensio
member
Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 17
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Hello, I am very impressed with your info. I'll try to request some more detailed pictures but I affraid that old device will not be properly funtional for Astro viewing. These binos are located in Spain, and the worst point is that I live 700kms far from the city in which is located so it is not easy to check it live. If I finally desist on purchasing I'll be glad to help anyone of you who was interested on it. Thanks.
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Erik D
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 3196
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
... and I have no idea what Fujinon would charge to strip and re-coat them with current coatings .... assuming they can/will.
You may have a Fujinon service shop closer, that you would prefer to ask, or get a second opinion from.
Just a word of caution.
I recall reading a thread on the Yahoo Astro-Physics User Group around 2001/2002 about striping and re-coating: Someone had purchased a AP Scope 2nd hand. Discovered slight imperfection on the objective coating. He contacted AP to request stripping and re coating. Was advised by Roland C not to. (I think the explanation was the FMC bond/fuses<?> with the glass surface). This person went ahead and asked a 3rd party who agreed to perform the work. One element of the triplet objective broke in the process.
It's been 7 or 8 years since I followed the Yahoo AP forum. Those who keep up with the AP group may have better recollection of the details than I.
I rarely make decisions to purchase optics because they may be a collectible model. I do so based on the observing pleasure I expect to derive from them. If my binos happen to be a unique model or have collectibility that adds to the pleasure of ownership. If not, I can at least enjoy observing.
If the desire is to own a pair of fixed powered > 100mm objective binocular with straight EPs I wonder if pair of 28X110 waterproof bino with modern coating is a better choice. They are a fraction of the bulk, weight and cost of battleship binoculars.
http://www.garrettoptical.com/biggest-binocular-p/s110hd-wp.htm
Makes a pretty impressive display too.
ERik D
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Quote:
... and I have no idea what Fujinon would charge to strip and re-coat them with current coatings .... assuming they can/will.
You may have a Fujinon service shop closer, that you would prefer to ask, or get a second opinion from.
Just a word of caution.
I recall reading a thread on the Yahoo Astro-Physics User Group around 2001/2002 about striping and re-coating: Someone had purchased a AP Scope 2nd hand. Discover slight imperfection on the objective coating. He contacted AP to request stripping and re coating. Was advised by Roland C not to. (I think the explanation was the FMC bond/fuses<?> with the glass surface). This person went ahead and asked a 3rd party who agreed to perform the work. One element of the triplet objective broke in the process.
It's been 7 or 8 years since I followed the Yahoo AP forum. Those who keep up with the AP group may have better recollection of the details than I.
ERik D
You cannot strip and recoat anti-reflection coatings. The process "strip and recoat" is a carry-over from discussions of recoating mirrors. Mirror coatings and AR coatings are very much different.
You do not strip AR coatings, you grind them off and that changes the figure of the lens. That would then require the lens be refigured, repolished and then recoated. There is no guarantee the refiguring of the lens will return the lens to its original condition. In fact, it cannot.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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GaryHeath
super member
Reged: 08/13/09
Posts: 118
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So there you have it .... no need to contact Baker Marine (etc) after all!! 
This forum is not only one of the most active, luckily it also has some 'very' well informed contrubutors.
Thanks guys, and best regards,
Gary
-------------------- For equipment see: My Gallery
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Solar B
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/28/07
Posts: 920
Loc: By Edinburgh , Scotland
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They do appear to be in a fantastic condition,one point i would make is,you will have to be sure that you really do want something this large,it is quite a commitment and one which you may not be able to decide upon until you actually see them,i think sometimes the thought of a Good deal or Bargain can often cloud (excuse the pun) our judgement.
Best of Luck
Brian
-------------------- " Gentlemen only ever use Refractors "
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edwincjones
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 5671
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Quote:
what are they really worth?
As Gary has implied, they are worth it to him- as a collectable? If your intent is observing, then you must add the cost of a mount and any possible repair. So, the total cost to you remains unclear.
edj
so your total cost would be the $1700 for binocs and mount, cost of tripod, cost of adapter-probably in local machine shop For the same amount, other options are..................? edj
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GaryHeath
super member
Reged: 08/13/09
Posts: 118
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Ed, are you asking me why 'I' would pay the asking $1700? If so .... I guess because an intuitive sense based on what the 80 Meibos are priced at on eBay, and a gut feel ..... that so far in life hasn't lead me 'too' far astray, I'd go ahead and take a chance in this case, and feel I'd be doing well if as advertised.
As far as a mount, I have a small machine shop in my garage and can turn projects up to 40" between centers, and 20" dia. in the gap of a gear-head gap-bed tool shop lathe, as well a small gear head mill with a 36" power table, to 'hobby about' with. So I would just make up an adapter to mount the existing mount to one of my Meade tripods, and use it for terrestrial stuff .... sort of like I did to mount my 25X150s on the UA Sirius mount with a Losmandy extension to a Meade giant field tripod, that I posted the pic's of in another thread here.
I live in the central Sierras, about 20 miles outside of Yosemite. Our home has a great-room with a 30 foot ceiling and a wall of glass that goes from a couple of feet above floor level, up to just over two stories, and a large rear deck, that both overlook a deep valley where there is abundant of wildlife, including these huge bull pines where in the spring .... golden eagles nest at slightly above and below our eye level from the deck.
So in my case .... these guys would become a very welcome conversation piece to our great-room, and move out to the deck when the weather permits. I have a dual reclining couch out there and two UA P-mounts at each end, that are both equipped with G.O. 20X80 CF triplets. My wife and I like to spend a lot of time out there relaxing and using the 80's to observe the wildlife, but a set of 150's would be nice too. 
As you know ... like you, I really don't need them for astronomy.
-------------------- For equipment see: My Gallery
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DJB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 1590
Loc: Lisle NY
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Hi all,
Edz's advice is so clearly correct. If this process must be done, it MUST be done by a professional organization, one who can actually perform the total recoating restortation process.
Unfortunately, these folks are getting harder and even harder to find; But they do exist. JMO.
Best regards, Dave.
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edwincjones
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 5671
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Gary,
My question was addressed to Ortensio, is the cost of the binos more than what he would pay for newer, lessor binos, and is it worth it to him to have the classics vs a modern binocular.
I agree with your useage, it would be show piece, restored, and quality of optical coatings would not be an issue for me.
edj
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n w arkansas
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Hi all,
Edz's advice is so clearly correct. If this process must be done, it MUST be done by a professional organization, one who can actually perform the total recoating restortation process.
Unfortunately, these folks are getting harder and even harder to find; But they do exist. JMO.
Best regards, Dave.
Dave, I think you misunderstood.
I said it can't be done.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Gordon Rayner
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 03/24/07
Posts: 971
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"You cannot strip AR coatings". That is unfortunate. From what you and an experienced optician who reworked some scratched 25 x 150 eyelenses (.."most of the trouble is getting the EBC coatings removed"(by fine grinding?)) said, that seems to be true for EBC multilayers.
I recall being told that evaporated single layer MgF2 can be removed by simple chemicals. That information was from a professional coating shop. I do not recall which acid, or acid mix, but have notes. Perhaps that was for" cold" coatings ? I have no experience as a coater, and no experience doing, or having done, coating removal . I do have a number of 25 x 150 eyelenses which need to be fine ground ( ?) to remove scratches which are very shallow, but which penetrated the coating.
There seem to be many trade secrets among opticians and coaters. Maybe some Googling? There are grinding materials which were not available, or not used, before the growth of the semiconductor industry. I have a small benchtop Strasbaugh grinding/polishing machine, with the same motions as the clothes washing machine sized equipment in their product line. I have not used it. The only optic I made, as an adolescent, was a 6 inch paraboloid , following the Thompson book and Texereau's book.
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pcad
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 1768
Loc: Connecticut
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But if you grind it off, don't you have to refigure and polish it? Sounds like almost as much work as starting over. I guess if the original lenses are made from an obsolete glass type it might be worth it, maybe.
-------------------- Peter
Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x
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DJB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 1590
Loc: Lisle NY
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Hi Edz,
Thank you for correcting me. I thought that some special labs were still doing this work.
I also recall reading (I thought) that some individuals were trying to accomplish this as well. Perhaps this is where the confusion on my part comes in. Well, at least I now know.
Best regards, Dave.
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DJB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 1590
Loc: Lisle NY
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Hi Edz,
Yes, I do understand that the original, outer surface of the lens must need be taken off.
Actally, we did this sort of thing with a third party vendor in Itaca, New York. However, this was lab work, and it saved a $100,000+ VERY LARGE mirror from yet another process. It was a very pleasant recovery for us in our lab.
Binoculars, however, are a different sort of beast.
Best regards, Dave.
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orbitaljump
sage
Reged: 01/29/06
Posts: 426
Loc: Charleston, SC
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Wow! If the optics are good to go, that is an excellent price!
Thanks for sharing the pics!
-------------------- .
My God, it's full of stars!
.
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Gordon Rayner
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 03/24/07
Posts: 971
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I edited out two or three typographical errors in my long post, above, after Kenny found one. Re-reading, I found more, but it is too late to edit. Remaining are "converplates"(sic) and "coverplastes"(sic), and possibly others. So, do not post when it is likely that you will want to go to bed before adequate proofreading.
In one website, I have seen repeated references to a "columnator"(sic). I know who used to pronounce it that way. Also, in the same site a "polaris"(sic),( and they do not mean the pole star), is promoted as the way to go for compass adjustment.
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orbitaljump
sage
Reged: 01/29/06
Posts: 426
Loc: Charleston, SC
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You busted me!
-------------------- .
My God, it's full of stars!
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Gordon Rayner
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 03/24/07
Posts: 971
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?? I have no clue of your meaning.
There are many contributors and readers whose native speaking and education are not in the English language. Since English already has chaotic spelling, those of us who have extensive experience with written English should be careful to use correct orthography,to avoid confusion.
Unfortunately, there are many native English speakers , such as the unnamed person(s) cited above, who use incorrect, confusing spellings. The "polaris" example might easily be interpreted to mean that they use the north star to make up a compass deviation table. I suppose that super-duper literacy was not a requirement to become a WW II Navy OM and then advance to the Chief rating.
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orbitaljump
sage
Reged: 01/29/06
Posts: 426
Loc: Charleston, SC
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Just funnin' ya, Gordon! Have a single malt scotch on me.
-------------------- .
My God, it's full of stars!
.
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Gordon Rayner
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 03/24/07
Posts: 971
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Sorry, I do not touch the hard stuff.
The neighbor ATM forum seems to have a higher signal/noise ratio.
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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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I'd be surprised if it were at all necessary to *grind* off any coating. I should think that polishing would do the job. At least, when I aspherized my 50mm f/3.3 bino objectives the AR coating polished away in about 10 minutes.
And as to not being able to duplicate the proper figure and performance of a lens after coating removal, that's wrong, even *if* grinding were indeed necessary. So little glass would be removed (no more than about 0.03mm for 5 micron abrasive) that for all intents and purposes the thickness could be considered as unchanged.
Once the radius of curvature is known (and this is easily measured with a good spherometer), it's simple to arrive at the same figure. For convex surfaces, the usual approach to arriving at a good figure is to make a matched concave test plate. For concave surfaces, an interferometer would be used, and if the radius of curvature is relatively large even the Ronchi/Foucault test could serve.
The preceding applies for spherical and flat surfaces. Aspheric surfaces are a different matter, but most binos don't employ suchanyway. If an aspheric element is present, there would rarely if ever be more than one in each half of the instrument, and then most likely in the eyepiece. This surface might best be left alone, unless the coating was in bad shape.
And it goes without saying that cemented doublets and the like are problematic in that it may not be possible to re-coat them unless first separated.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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Patrik Iver
sage
Reged: 07/29/03
Posts: 259
Loc: Kaarina, Finland
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Quote:
Also, in the same site a "polaris"(sic),( and they do not mean the pole star), is promoted as the way to go for compass adjustment.
I suspect that most people here have no clue as to what you mean with the “polaris”-reference. My guess would be “pelorus”.
And to the original poster: My apologies for further contributing to the deviations from the original and intended course of this thread…
-------------------- Best regards,
Patrik Iver
60°N, 22°E
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davidmcgo
professor emeritus
Reged: 10/09/04
Posts: 563
Loc: San Diego, CA
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With 150mm clear aperture and already coated why worry about it? These older Fujinons if in good mechanical condition would really perform extremely well compared to anything else available for near the price and probably last lifetimes in the amateur astronomer's typical use.
If these were in the US I'd have bought them already while everyone else here was arguing about whether the coatings could be improved!
Dave
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GaryHeath
super member
Reged: 08/13/09
Posts: 118
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You and me both Dave!
-------------------- For equipment see: My Gallery
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