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Mauro Da Lio
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Starman1]
      #2008321 - 11/25/07 01:24 PM

Quote:

Mauro,

Pictures of M27 distinctly show the "bow-tie" section, the brightest part, as greenish, while the outer section of the long oval show red.




I linked a picture. The brightest part is red there. Isn't it?


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Mauro Da Lio
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #2008437 - 11/25/07 02:35 PM

Quote:

M27 definitely appears as an intense greenish blue "hourglass" in my 25x100 Fujinon binoculars.






The point is that is the red part!
http://www.telescopes.cc/m27.htm


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Mauro Da Lio
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Starman1]
      #2008479 - 11/25/07 03:00 PM

Quote:


I play the devil's advocate, here, because I enjoy the conversation and I have read extensively on this subject, but why do all the theories of vision, related to the visibility of objects in a telescope, ignore the physical number of photons gathered by the larger aperture? Why isn't the image of an extended object simply easier to see in the larger scope because the larger scope gathers more light? Raise the intensity of the light level, and we all see more and better.
The Moon is bright in a small scope, but it is a LOT brighter in a big scope. At double the power of a scope 1/2 the size, the brightness per unit area calculates to be the same. Yet, the image is brighter. Period. It's easy to calculate why a stellar point is brighter, but not so easy to understand why an extended object like the Moon is brighter. The size of the image is not the explanation that works. Image intensity is simply higher.





If you read the link to Tony Flander's page http://mysite.verizon.net/vze55p46/id18.html there are at least three kind of "brightness". Confusing them is fatal.
1) There is the total integrated brightness. The total amount of light collected by the scope. This increrases proportionally to the area of the collecting mirror or lens. In pointwise sources this is the factor that primarily determine visibility (I write primarily because, besides the amount of collected light there also is a cognitive aspecte, mainly influenced by backrgound contrast which make easiker to detect points against darker background, and that is why limiting magnitude increases with magnification, as well explained by a paper of Shaefler).
2) There i surfece brightness, that is the intensity per unit area of an extende object. It is the amount of collected light divided the apparent area. If you double the scope diameter and double the magnification you get 4 tomes the light divide four times the area and the surface brightness is the same (se "lowering rthe threshodls by bill ferris). Thi is the physical quantity that stimulate cones and rods. Each cone provides the same signal to the same surface brightness regardless of the fact that other cones may see the same source (if the area is large many cones respond if it is small lesser cones respond).
3) There is the "subjective" perception of brightness. This is where cognitive processes take place. If many cones/rod are simultaneously stimulated (that is you are looking a big area) the the area is further processed by the visual cortex in the barin and "recognized". This is the fundamental reason why we see better in bigger scopes (same brightness but bigger images, see again clark or ferris documents for a simple explanations, or you may search the visula neuro scientific literature for more rigorous frameworks). A surface twice the area is perceived as "brighter" (subjectively) because a "recognized" entity holds informaion of both its intrinsic surface brightnes and of its overall importance (or totasl brightness). That is why the moon appears brighter in a bigger scope even if the exit pupil is the same. Something similar happens for color recogntion. You need "real" signals from cones (for real colors). But that is not enough. You need the colour patch to be large enough (or the total brightness of the patch to bi bigger than a given amount - this is a variation of the concepts expressed by Clark about the optimal magnification and the detection of shapes). You may do a simple test: print two squares, the same color and lightness bou one larger that the other and look at them at distance. The larger is easier to detect (also its color), but the color is the same, the signal form cones is the same.

Edited by Mauro Da Lio (11/25/07 03:14 PM)


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Mr. Bill
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #2008837 - 11/25/07 06:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

M27 definitely appears as an intense greenish blue "hourglass" in my 25x100 Fujinon binoculars.






The point is that is the red part!
http://www.telescopes.cc/m27.htm




Opps...my bad. Well, I can only report what I've observed.

OBTW, actually 25x150 binoculars.




Edited by Mr. Bill (11/26/07 05:40 PM)


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famtta
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #2008877 - 11/25/07 07:22 PM

hi bill, can you see any color in m 27 or m42 --or any color in any dso objects using your oberwerk bt 100s jim

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Starman1
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #2008914 - 11/25/07 07:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

M27 definitely appears as an intense greenish blue "hourglass" in my 25x100 Fujinon binoculars.






The point is that is the red part!
http://www.telescopes.cc/m27.htm



If you look at this picture:
http://www.eso.org/public/outreach/press-rel/pr-1998/phot-38a-98-preview.jpg
You will see that while the very edges of the "bow tie" glow red, there is a distinct green bar running the length of the bowtie (squint your edges to reduce the resolution). This does not invalidate your point, though, as ALL photos of M27 show the faint outer loops as green as this deep image shows:
http://www.astrophoto.com/M27.htm
That the outer parts seem to be a reddish color visually DOES show that perception is altering reality. It could also be a contrast effect, as noted by many serious double star observers.
That colors appear more accurate visually in the Orion Nebula amy reflect on its overall brightness. And size.

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Starman1
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #2008928 - 11/25/07 07:53 PM

Mauro,
Of course, that IS the brightness we see--the "perceived" brightness.
At the same power, the larger scope will produce a larger exit pupil.
At the same surface brightness, the larger scope will produce a larger image.
In both cases, a larger area of retina receives light.
Because I was involved in nearly every one of the earlier discussions, I was playing l'agent provocateur here.
Color perception does vary significantly because of genetics. I learned that a long time ago by comparing what I saw through the eyepiece with several other observers. Alas, age results in brunification of the lens as well, skewing color perception away from the blue and reducing overall sensitivity to light at night as the 500nm peak sensitivity gradually is reduced by the lens filter.

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David Knisely
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #2009832 - 11/26/07 09:18 AM

Mauro Da Lio wrote:

Quote:

This is a generic statement. I invite you to read the papers I pointed out and then say what is wrong with the procedure to the point that conclusions are false.




A generic statement does not make it necessarily false. However, as others have indicated, under certain conditions and with enough aperture, the light levels found some areas of M42 are high enough to activate the cones and allow colors to be perceived. This is not routinely done (and the colors seen are dim and somewhat pastel rather than vivid), but they are seen.

Quote:

This is very interesting. I did not discard the possibility to see red, I said it is more difficult that seeing green (perhaps there are a very few cases). Your case suggests it may possible to see red in Orion Nebula, but there may be other possible explanations




I prefer using Occam's razor and accept the idea that under certain conditions, some of the brighter nebulae are bright enough so that those with sufficient red sensitivity will see at least some reddish hues. The wording you used in the initial statement implied that you doubted any red would be visible at all ever, and that was the problem.

Quote:

I looked at the Orion Nebula with a red filter: The trapezium is red (yet I am not convinced I see the real red cominga from H-alpha, for the reason above). NGC 7662 is not seen at all in red. The real test I plan to do is look with a H-alpha filter. If the object is not seen then...




The Trapezium is a group of stars and not nebulosity. A red filter should show them as red. There is also some reflection nebulosity intermixed with the emission nebula in M42, so scattered red continuum light from the stars may also play a slight role (along with H-alpha). The area immediately around the Trapezium (the "Huygenian" region) is somewhat bluish or bluish-green to me, with slight variations in saturation and hue. I have to look much farther away to note the pinkish or faint reddish coloration. One area which shows it to some degree is the southeastern "wing" of the nebula. There is a strip or filament just off the southwest edge of the southeastern wing which is sometimes seen as reddish. The other areas are again subtle pinkish tones which appear in vague patches somewhat outside the Huygenian region but not all the way out to the outermost edges. In scopes larger than 10 inches, on a good night, some subtle pinkish tones are visible, although again, as I pointed out, not everyone will be able to see them. Most people can see the bluish-green core of M42 even in some fairly modest apertures, but often much beyond that, there is usually little distinct coloration visible unless the aperture is considerable.

As for NGC 7662, that object is mostly an OIII emitter, and I don't see any red in it, at least in my 10 inch. As I indicated, the planetary nebulae which tend to show at least a little red are IC 418 and Campbell's Hydrogen Star. Most of the rest tend to have either a bluish-green color or no prominent color at all.

Quote:

SO the other hand, however, the sensitivity on cone cells to light is muche less likely to vary from people to peole.




There is little to suggest that the sensitivity does *not* vary and more evidence to suggest that it does vary from person to person. During my days as a Physics student, we were working with spectrometers and a friend of mine was seeing emission lines that extended into the near-infrared (probably close to 7200 Angstroms)! I can't duplicate this (and it is impossible for him to describe the "colors" he sees), but he has seen red when I could not.

While a few people may be mislead into thinking they are seeing color at low light levels when they are not, when two very prominent and experienced amateurs who are well-known (at least in the U.S.) say they saw pinks or reds in M42, I would tend to believe them. Clear skies to you.

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Mr. Bill
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: famtta]
      #2009998 - 11/26/07 11:04 AM

Quote:

hi bill, can you see any color in m 27 or m42 --or any color in any dso objects using your oberwerk bt 100s jim




Could see pinkish gray in the arms and a hint of green around the Trapezium. Haven't looked at M27 yet. This was with 24 Panoptic eps which gives about 25x @ 4mm exit pupil.

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Dave Mitsky
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #2010014 - 11/26/07 11:15 AM

Quote:

The Trapezium is a group of stars and not nebulosity. A red filter should show them as red. There is also some reflection nebulosity intermixed with the emission nebula in M42, so scattered red continuum light from the stars may also play a slight role (along with H-alpha). The area immediately around the Trapezium (the "Huygenian" region) is somewhat bluish or bluish-green to me, with slight variations in saturation and hue. I have to look much farther away to note the pinkish or faint reddish coloration. One area which shows it to some degree is the southeastern "wing" of the nebula. There is a strip or filament just off the southwest edge of the southeastern wing which is sometimes seen as reddish. The other areas are again subtle pinkish tones which appear in vague patches somewhat outside the Huygenian region but not all the way out to the outermost edges. In scopes larger than 10 inches, on a good night, some subtle pinkish tones are visible, although again, as I pointed out, not everyone will be able to see them. Most people can see the bluish-green core of M42 even in some fairly modest apertures, but often much beyond that, there is usually little distinct coloration visible unless the aperture is considerable.

As for NGC 7662, that object is mostly an OIII emitter, and I don't see any red in it, at least in my 10 inch. As I indicated, the planetary nebulae which tend to show at least a little red are IC 418 and Campbell's Hydrogen Star. Most of the rest tend to have either a bluish-green color or no prominent color at all.





My experience has been almost exactly the same as David's with the exception that the smallest aperture that I have seen blue, green, and muted pink hues within the previously stated areas of M42 has been 14.5 inches. It's far easier with 20 and 25-inch apertures. Every time that I've detected such color the conditions have been exceptional.

When using a 30-inch on a very good night a couple of years ago, I noticed a faint pink glow within M8.

I've also seen IC 418, the Raspberry Nebula, display a hard-to-describe ruddy color through large apertures on some occasions.

The Homunculus Nebula that surrounds Eta Carinae was a very distinct orange color as seen through a 22-inch Starmaster at an altitude of 4,000 meters in Bolivia.

Planetary nebulae such as NGC 6543, NGC 6572, and NGC 7662 seem far more colorful to me through large apertures.

Dave Mitsky

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stefanj
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #2010580 - 11/26/07 03:51 PM

Not sure what it's worth- But I can hit blues and greens on M42 with my little 5" newt- Orion just happens to hang out in the Darkest of Dark in my skies (LUCKY ME!!!!!) Even my UNtrained Wife was able to see the blues (she struggled with seeing any green)

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Mauro Da Lio
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #2010609 - 11/26/07 04:03 PM

Quote:


The wording you used in the initial statement implied that you doubted any red would be visible at all ever, and that was the problem.





I think I was clear: I wrote "I doubt". That means that I do not discard the possibility, but frankly I personally think that H-alpha is very very unlikely (will see with an H-aplha filter). I have a easier explanation for the red you saw with the UHC red leaking filter. I will tell you.

You still did not read the papers. I think you should read them and, only after that, you are entitled to rebut them.


Quote:

While a few people may be mislead into thinking they are seeing color at low light levels when they are not, when two very prominent and experienced amateurs who are well-known (at least in the U.S.) say they saw pinks or reds in M42, I would tend to believe them.




I do not. The regions you point out are at surface brightness below 18+ (correct me) and is at the limit and probably below the color threshold (figure H-aplha). Instead of thinking that something in contrast with what is known, is happening I prefer to find a simpler explanation especially when this kind of experience is explained by a serius paper by experts in the field of visual neuro sciences and agrees with a huge amount of scientific literature in that filed. I prefer to think that the explanation is correct. You dislike the explanation and prefer to think you see real colors (it is possible perhaps in very few case, but honestly the visual-neuro-science explanation is more credible). I believe that real colors are possible only for the green strongest OIII.

Edited by Mauro Da Lio (11/26/07 05:40 PM)


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Mauro Da Lio
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Starman1]
      #2010711 - 11/26/07 05:00 PM

Quote:


If you look at this picture:
http://www.eso.org/public/outreach/press-rel/pr-1998/phot-38a-98-preview.jpg
You will see that while the very edges of the "bow tie" glow red, there is a distinct green bar running the length of the bowtie (squint your edges to reduce the resolution). This does not invalidate your point, though, as ALL photos of M27 show the faint outer loops as green as this deep image shows:
http://www.astrophoto.com/M27.htm
That the outer parts seem to be a reddish color visually DOES show that perception is altering reality. It could also be a contrast effect, as noted by many serious double star observers.
That colors appear more accurate visually in the Orion Nebula amy reflect on its overall brightness. And size.




Yes Don. What I pointed out from the beginning (you shold read the papers they are "illuminating") is that studies show that *there are* color perception, also in scotopic conditions. But in scotopic conditions they are false colors related to brightness levels (brightest lights are "cold" colors, green-blue-gray) and medium lights are "warm" colors, pink-red-orangish). Many people (but not all) have these kind of perceptions context-related and variable among the individuals and sometimes richer that color perception in mesopic condition (curiously those people that see gray are those who have the least inaccurate color perception).


So here is the point: there are two theories.

Theory 1 is based on visual-neuroscience experiments and say that:
a) - at light levels in the low mesopic condition (down to ~17.5 mpsas) there still is a remnant of *real* color perception based on rods-L-cones interaction. There are basically two colors: in the Lab colorspace they are a*=-5, b*=3 (a greenish gray) and b*=5, a=-1* (a reddish gray). Which one happens depends on the ratio between rods and L-cones stimulation (a completely different point is if and how much L-cones may stimulated by H-aplha: I strongly doubt).
see:
Change of Color Appearance in Photopic, Mesopic and Scotopic Vision
Jae Chul SHIN, Hirohisa YAGUCHI 1 and Satoshi SHIOIRI1
Graduate School of Science and Technology, Chiba University, 1-33 Yoyoicho, Inage-ku, Chiba 263-8522, Japan
1 Department of Information and Image Sciences, Chiba University, 1-33 Yoyoicho, Inage-ku, Chiba 263-8522, Japan
OPTICAL REVIEW Vol. 11, No. 4 (2004) 265–271
# 2004 The Optical Society of Japan
b) - at light levels further below, vision is mediated by cones and there still are color perception (in contextual conditions if there are different light levels). The brightest lights are perceived as "cold" (many shades from blue to gray and sometimes even yellow). The medium lights are perceived as "warm" (many shades from pink to red). This kind of perception is probably related to the Purkinje effect and is in continuty with the rudimentary perception at low mesopic conditions (the reds are darker than the blues and the brain thus interprets medium grays as reds - our brain does a marvelous job in guessing and interpreting missing data, always!). If the same medium lights are alone (no brightest lights) they are seen as greenish (in fact they are the brightest).

Theory 2 is based on the reports of expert observers who say thay have seen colors (which is true) and that colors "must be true" (which is questionable).


So, let us see how the two theories explains some observations, and if they survive to experimental data:

M42. This nebula is very bright. The central part (with more OIII) near the trapezium shines at 14 mpsas. That is in the middle of the mesopic region, bright enough for real perception. The farther parts (richer in H-alpha) are at 17-18 and below, at the limit of mesopic perception for a "normal color" and probably far below for H-aplha.

Now Theory 1 predicts green at the brightest part (1.a, the real color) and reddish elsewhere (1.b, reddish contextual perception). That is what many people, me included see. Thus reports on M42 do not conflict with theory 1.
What about theory 2? Theory 2 predicts green at the brightes part (the real color by OIII) and red for the fainter parts (supposed to be the real H-alpha at 18 mpsas and below!). Again reports on M42 do not conflict with theory 2.
Thus we can conclude that both theories predict what the observer reports (with different explanations but both predict the same effects). M42 *is not* a case able to discriminate between the two theories.


So, let us consider another case: M27. It is not difficult to find that the bow-tie is where there are strong emissions of both H-aplha and OIII. In fact the "real colors" of the bow-tie are part red and part green (the ESO and HST photos are in false colors, buy you my find here some more realistic colors http://www.astrodon.com/oldsite/ColorExposure.html and you may easily find that the bow-tie is where H-aplha may be found. The bow-tie shines at 18.4 mpsas. The faniter part of the nebula is OIII only. Thus the real color of the fainter part of the nebula is green.

Now theory 1 predicts "cold" for the bow-tie (1.b) and "warm" for the fainter part (1.b). This is in agreement with reported colors.
Theory 2 predicts green and red for the bow-tie and green for the fainter parts. This conflicts with the reports in both parts. If we mitigate theory 2 (assuming that H-aplha is not seen) we should conclude that the bow-tie is green (seen only OIII) and that the fainter part is green (there only is OIII). Thus the red in the fainter part of M27 still remains unexplained. This is enough to seriously question theory 2.

Note that if we patch theory 2 assuming that H-alpha is not seen (in the effort to match at least the reported color for the bow-tie) then we are no longer able to report justify the rported red in M42. This patch produces a bug elsewhere! Usually when things like these happens a theory is wrong.

Edited by Mauro Da Lio (11/26/07 05:30 PM)


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Mr. Bill
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #2010799 - 11/26/07 05:46 PM

Mauro

Your explanations are impressive....I guess the word "see" in the title is the issue.

Maybe we need an epistemological discussion here.

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Starman1
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #2010824 - 11/26/07 06:01 PM

Well,
Mauro's logic is inescapable given the premises.
The response of the eye under low light conditions is, indeed, what is explained in the articles.
There is a counter-argument, though, and it is a strong one:
In large scopes (I've had the privilege of looking at many nebulae in 28-32" scopes), the colors that appear as the nebulae appear larger and brighter, are reds and shades of red.
The Orion Nebula appears gray with no color in small apertures. In larger apertures, the central area appears greenish. In still larger apertures, the fainter areas appear shades of pale rose and peach and the "arches"(or "wings") section now has a greenish tone like the central area.
All of those comments are consistent with the vision experiments and conclusions about false color.
But, with still larger apertures, the "arches" become reddish and have streaks of deep red color in them, and the very faintest parts of the "diamond ring" (the opposite side of the nebula where the arches come together to form a large ring shape) appear greenish. The brightest parts of the nebula (except the central area) now appear reddish and the fainter sections appear greenish-gray.
Could this be a contrast effect? Possibly. However, I've noticed that, after staring at the nebula for a while in a 28-32" scope, my night vision is ruined and it takes quite a while for perception of really faint objects to return. The nebula is bright enough to damage my night vision!
I strongly suspect that my vision at that point is mesopic, and that the color perception has strengthened because I am, indeed, seeing "real" and not "perceived" colors.

Another problem I have with the assumptions in the articles is color perception in objects. I see faint pinks in M20, M8, M17, which is consistant. But I see faint blues and greens with no reds in most planetary nebulae. Now perhaps they are bright enough in surface brightness to activate the brighter perception which would shown greens. But all of these nebulae display outer shells and details which should show red because they are much fainter. But they don't.

Another problem is that several individuals, when looking through the same scope on the same night at the same object do not all perceive color in the same way, in the same amount, or even at all. This implies a greater range of variation than the conclusions of the articles referred to.

So what is the truth? High visual sensitivity occurs in some individuals. Some individuals perceive colors better and at lower levels of illumination. Some individuals see much better in the dark. That most do not does not prove that no one does. Lab tests form conclusions about the subjects tested. Tetrachromaticism exists in some women--imagine the "skew" of a lab test with such an individual as part of the "N". The only way to form a valid conclusion about vision is to have a large test group. How large is required to form conclusions applicable to general humanity? I don't know.

But I suspect that one of the things that may lead people to astronomy in the first place is an improved ability to see in low levels of illumination. It would be interesting to test a group of experienced astronomers and compare the findings with the general population. Now that would be illuminating! (sorry for the pun).

The premise that all humans see things the same is where, I think, the most valid criticism lies. I participated in a test of hearing several years ago in which hearing sensitivity and range were tested in over 400 individuals.
The assumptions about hearing, especially in frequency range, proved to only be an approximation with huge deviations above and below the "norm". 20KHz is often cited as the highest frequency of human hearing. In our test, the range was 12KHz to over 23KHz. I suspect the range in vision is equally as broad. David cited the individual whose vision extended into the near infrared.
Such individuals have problems maintaining night vision even when red monochromatic light is used. Some individuals simply see better in the dark. Others always need some illumination to see.[I remember someone who was amazed that I could look up the chart number in my Uranometria atlas with only the light from the sky--he couldn't see the black ink on the page and could barely make out the outline of the book. We were both amazed at each other's vision. ]

Still, Mauro's logic is inescapable. I suspect the truth lies somewhere between the conclusions of the researchers and the experience of astronomers. But how to set up a test........

--------------------
Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member, TeleVue junkie


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Mr. Bill
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Starman1]
      #2011001 - 11/26/07 07:27 PM

Quote:


Some individuals simply see better in the dark. Others always need some illumination to see.[I remember someone who was amazed that I could look up the chart number in my Uranometria atlas with only the light from the sky--he couldn't see the black ink on the page and could barely make out the outline of the book. We were both amazed at each other's vision. ]

Still, Mauro's logic is inescapable. I suspect the truth lies somewhere between the conclusions of the researchers and the experience of astronomers. But how to set up a test........




My night vision has always been superb (even at 60); it's my day vision that sucks.



--------------------
10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
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150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos

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galaxyman
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #2011532 - 11/27/07 12:29 AM

The following is from a report I posted on CN 11/30/06 using my 8" refractor:


As M-42 approached meridian it was time for the BIG refractor to view this glorious object.

My thinking was the 18mm UWA will give the best all-around view. So I inserted the eyepiece and punched in the hand controller “M42”. As I watched the Beast swing over to the nebula, I looked up that long tube and just marveled how beautiful the Orion constellation is. This night, this site, many faint stars that are not seen at light polluted areas enhanced the view tremendously. Sometimes just looking at the night sky without optical aid is something we take for granted at times. My thinking is how many people unfortunately never see this because of light pollution or they just don’t look up.

Well when the scope stopped and I gazed into the eyepiece, I was greeted with one of the finest views of the nebula I’ve ever seen. Yes, my 22” dob here again produces unbelievable detail, but the refractor view is different and in a way more beautiful.

First the nebula was very green to bluish-green. There is a slight rose color though subtle to the western side. So the color was apparent. Dark skies are great!


Karl
E.O.H.


Chesmont Astronomical Society
Telekit (Swayze optics) 22" F/4.5 Dob
Homemade (Parks Optics) 12.5" F/4.8 Dob
TMB 8" F/9 Refractor(The Beast)
Antares 6" F/6.5 Refractor(Mini-Beast)

--------------------
So many galaxies, so little time!


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David Knisely
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #2011664 - 11/27/07 03:23 AM

Mauro Da Lio wrote:

Quote:

I have a easier explanation for the red you saw with the UHC red leaking filter.




You may need to read what I wrote more carefully. I did *not* see red with a "UHC red leaking" filter. The UHC I have does not have a properly-placed red secondary passband for H-alpha. I saw the red in an older Lumicon Oxygen III (OIII) line filter that had a red secondary passband which passes H-alpha at a fairly high intensity. I do not see red with my newer OIII filters that have no red secondary passband, but I *do* see faint reddish hues in M42 with the old OIII filter as well as in my DGM Optics NPB filter (which also *does* have a properly placed red passband for H-alpha).

Quote:

You dislike the explanation and prefer to think you see real colors




Well, right there, you just dismissed my claim for seeing reddish colorations in M42, yet you claimed earlier that you don't do this. Which is it? I *do* see real colors in various deep-sky objects, and some other people do as well. Reddish coloration in objects like M42 and M8 is the hardest to see and is fairly rare (requires some aperture and good red-light sensitivity), but it *is* possible despite the results of the papers you cite. If you can't see it with your own eyes (and choose to rigidly believe in the generality of the papers you cite), then that is fine. However, it is *not* proof that I did not see red, nor does it invalidate the observations of other experienced amateurs. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info


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Mauro Da Lio
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Posts: 223
Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #2011696 - 11/27/07 04:55 AM

Quote:

I *do* see real colors in various deep-sky objects, and some other people do as well. Reddish coloration in objects like M42 and M8 is the hardest to see and is fairly rare (requires some aperture and good red-light sensitivity), but it *is* possible despite the results of the papers you cite. If you can't see it with your own eyes (and choose to rigidly believe in the generality of the papers you cite), then that is fine. However, it is *not* proof that I did not see red, nor does it invalidate the observations of other experienced amateurs.




You *do* se colors. The fact that you se *real H-aplha* is questionable, provided that there are proofs of false color perception due to a plethora of different cognitive effects.
You dimiss the huge amount of Visual Neuro Science knowledge without even considering them for the only fact that you are *sure* you see the *real* colors. You have not given any proof that what you see is real (you claim it is real because you and other see it, and if somebody else does not you point him as "unable") except for some anedoctcal report (a friend seeing 7200 angstrom and the OIII filter with leaks).
With all due respect let me disagree. There is a huge difference between controlled experiments and procedures carried out by expert scientists in the field (we are speaking of people who knows how to carry out the experiments and which might be the pitfalls) and homemade checks. There also are many possible explanations for example for the OIII red that do not need to invalidate all the known science. If the razors should be invoked, here it seems to me that a explanations that does not conflict with sound prioved knowledge is to be preffered to one which is counter that. I do not know if red H-aplha is strong enough in M42 to stimulate L-cones. I think no and I will check with a H-alpha filter (but think, if nebuale were visible in H-alpha filter, there would be a market for them beside H-beta, OIII and UHC).

I understand however that there is no room for discussion at leas until you refuse to even read the studies I pointed out.


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Mauro Da Lio
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Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? [Re: Starman1]
      #2011791 - 11/27/07 07:31 AM

Quote:

Well,
Mauro's logic... But how to set up a test........




Hi Don. I am happy you read the paper. Now we can further discuss. The point you raise are all interesting. I have a lot of comments here are a few:

First we are speaking of a very bright nebula. The brightest parts are at magnitude 14 (surface mag). I have a SQM and can assure that 14 is bright. False color percetions at that level are mistakes due to the intervention of rods, but cones are still operative (we are tetrachromatic at that point but we do not see a 4-dimensional color space because apparently rod signals enter the same channels of the cones).
Given the brightness of M42 you have the potential (even theoretical) to see real colors and also saturated colors (not rudimentary). How much saturated you may find in the companion paper.

The experiments were carried out with samples of uniform color which were seen under 8° apparent angle (this apparent angle is important... but again the authors know what they do). If there are regions of different colors compressed into a smaller apparent angle they cannot be recognized, even if the cones see the color. Thus it is not surprising that large scopes split areas of uniform colors in apparent patches large enough to be recognised (I still doub of H-alpha) but colors a 14 are seen provided the coloured areas are large enough (that is why your dark adaptation is disturbed, if the apparent area involve a large fraction of you FOV). If you look at a fractal image at distance (or a planet) you don't see vivid colors, but as soon as the details are resolved you see the color (provided they are large enough).

There are areas of M42 that shine at 17 and below. Here is were rudimentary real color perception ends. The remaining are artificial colors.
Little planetaries are very bright, and thus they are in the *real* mesopic range (for OIII). However the bright planetaries are bright because they are little, so even smaller ar the dim parts (the medium lights that should appear reddish).
The paper demonstrated reddish percepts for medium lights provided that they are large areas. Nothing is said about that effect for smaller areas. Maybe they are simply too small to be noticed (the ansae of M27 are instead large).

Another point you raise is the numerosity of the people who made tests. You are right when you say that the average response is identified but not the variance. However there are people who say seeing color at surface brightness of 22 (veil and M97, or in some regions of M42 that are at 22). From 17 (the average threshold) to 22 there a 5 magnitudes. A factor of 100. I know people that see stars half a magnitude dimmer than others, but nobody who sees 11.5 at the same place and time when the average see 6.5. So even if we do not know the variance (but we have hints it is not large because the thresholds were similar for the small sample of persons who made the tests) it is very unlikely that the threshold is 17+/-5 (what is needed to see reral colors in the faintest parts of M42).

Another point I did not notice si that the tests were carried out with broadband stimuli. Nebuale have line emission spectra. This might have some effect. However a pitfall is hiding here: our visual system uses three receptors in order to reduce as much as possible the phenomenon of metamerism (two different spectra and colors that produce the same stimuli and thus look like the same color). Three receptors are enough for smooth broadband spectra. Not enough for line spectra. L-cones are stimulated by OIII line. The mechanism of color constancy/compensation could produce apparent (metameric) red color.

... more later...


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