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ken svp120
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/19/04
Posts: 1351
Loc: Ohio
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And as to the zero chance of distraction - you have absolutely no way of saying what impact your actions will have on someone else.
It's absolutely true -- if I clap my hands, the universe might come to an end. Didn't happen last time, but you never know ...
I would think that it's impossible to be distracted by something that you can't see. And a pilot *certainly* can't see your laser unless you shine it right at him (or her).
But who knows, you might be right, pilots may be distracted by invisible light beams all the time.
Tony - that's quite off the mark of my point - clapping your hands effecting the universe is nowhere in the same league as pointing a light in some direction where someone else is traveling. Come on now. And as for it being an invisible beam - correct me if I'm wrong here - a 5 mW laser will travel about 10,000 feet. While this isn't cruising altitude for a jet liner, its well within reach of smaller aircraft and nearer to airports.
If my facts are wrong, please correct me. Otherwise lets try to stay as objective as possible about it...
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Orion 120 Refractor
Orion SkyviewPro Mount, Single Axis Drive
Losmandy G11 Mount, Non-Gemini
TEC 140 Apochromat #300
Meade DSI Pro II Monochrome
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sixela
Postmaster
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 11499
Loc: Boechout, Belgium
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So almost every State Trooper in the US today shoots his laser at the front of every passing car and truck to check it's speed. $$$ are more important than our eyes?
Different kettle of fish altogether. These would be unable even to distract you; they're class 1 lasers and collimated to project a 1 meter wide beam at 300 meters. Most even use infrared lighting.
But thanks for dragging that urban legend in the thread.
5mW GLP lasers are another story. They're very effective at distracting drivers, and they *are* dangerous in this respect if you're foolish with them.
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400mm f/4.46 self made Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Orion Starblast (114mm f/4 reflector, Alt/Az)
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sixela
Postmaster
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 11499
Loc: Boechout, Belgium
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However, we have no need of pointing lasers into a dark sky
You don't get to decide what we need. I think that in the US, you have the right to bear certain things that you certainly also don't need, and it's a constitutionally protected right (one which, by the way, I personally have a much larger issue with than with GLPs, even wielded by stupid people let alone wielded by responsible people; but your constitution is what it is).
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I called it lazy in my post
It's an insult, nothing less.
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we may just have to agree to disagree.
I'm nor forcing anyone to use one. On the other hand, in your rant you suggested that *I* shouldn't have the freedom to use one, or decided (for me) that I'm lazy for using one.
That's not agreeing to disagree, that's trying to dictate how I should behave.
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we should be respectful of that and refrain from using them.
We should refrain from pointing them at planes. If just the hypothetical danger is enough for you not to engage in an activity, I suggest you sell your car and use public transportation or walk.
Cars not only hypothetically kill people, they really do, and often it's people who drive in their cars to do some benign shopping.
So if you're driving (and if we follow your line of thinking for a moment), you're just lazy and you're putting your comfort above the safety of others. But feel free to agree to disagree.
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If the pilots as a group said, sure this is fine
I know pilots (and have been a glider pilot myself). None of them (which is exactly 0% of the sample population) is advocating a ban on GLPs.
Are you a pilot?
Everyone really involved in this, by the way, agrees that GLPs have become so ubiquitous and cheap that educating people to use them responsibly is the only solution left.
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Let's be respectful of other's use of the night sky just as we ask them to be respectful of our use of it.
Again, you are insinuating that I am not respectful, and that's insulting.
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400mm f/4.46 self made Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Orion Starblast (114mm f/4 reflector, Alt/Az)
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ken svp120
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/19/04
Posts: 1351
Loc: Ohio
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Quote:
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However, we have no need of pointing lasers into a dark sky
You don't get to decide what we need. I think that in the US, you have the right to bear certain things that you certainly also don't need, and it's a constitutionally protected right (one which, by the way, I personally have a much larger issue with than with GLPs, even wielded by stupid people let alone wielded by responsible people; but your constitution is what it is).
This is not a decision, it is a fact. Astronomy has done just fine without lasers for sometime. Lasers are not a necessity to using a telescope, observing, or looking at the night sky. There is no deciding - just stating fact.
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I called it lazy in my post
It's an insult, nothing less.
Not at all - this is the same as saying I enjoy a lazy afternoon of watching football. Its not meant in a deragotory way.
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we may just have to agree to disagree.
I'm nor forcing anyone to use one. On the other hand, in your rant you suggested that *I* shouldn't have the freedom to use one, or decided (for me) that I'm lazy for using one.
That's not agreeing to disagree, that's trying to dictate how I should behave.
There are certain freedoms we do not have and certain ways of conducting ourselves that are in fact dictated - these are the laws we decide to live under as being part of a society. A certian "code of conduct" is a very necessary thing.
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we should be respectful of that and refrain from using them.
We should refrain from pointing them at planes. If just the hypothetical danger is enough for you not to engage in an activity, I suggest you sell your car and use public transportation or walk.
Cars not only hypothetically kill people, they really do, and often it's people who drive in their cars to do some benign shopping.
So if you're driving (and if we follow your line of thinking for a moment), you're just lazy and you're putting your comfort above the safety of others. But feel free to agree to disagree.
A hypothectical danger may or may not prevent me from doing something, but it will certainly influence how or if I do decide to do it. Driving a car is an excellent example - and that is why we drive with caution. Driving can certainly be lazy if all you're doing is taking a drive through the country side, but far more often it is a necessity for people to earn a living in many cities that do not have adequate public transport.
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If the pilots as a group said, sure this is fine
I know pilots (and have been a glider pilot myself). None of them (which is exactly 0% of the sample population) is advocating a ban on GLPs.
Are you a pilot?
Everyone really involved in this, by the way, agrees that GLPs have become so ubiquitous and cheap that educating people to use them responsibly is the only solution left.
I'm not a pilot but there are four here in my office and we own several planes. Two of them said that an unexplected flash of light could be distracting, one said probably not, and one is not here today.
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Let's be respectful of other's use of the night sky just as we ask them to be respectful of our use of it.
Again, you are insinuating that I am not respectful, and that's insulting.
I'm not insinuating, I'm offering a suggestion. If we are asking people to control light pollution in the night sky by pointing their lights in a certain direction and/or shielding them, might we not apply a similar type of thought to our desire to shine lasers up into the night sky?
And because I feel that this discussion is getting a little too heated, that's the last I'm going to say on the matter.
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Orion 120 Refractor
Orion SkyviewPro Mount, Single Axis Drive
Losmandy G11 Mount, Non-Gemini
TEC 140 Apochromat #300
Meade DSI Pro II Monochrome
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BarbMoore
member
Reged: 05/11/09
Posts: 57
Loc: New Mexico
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Don't know why this thread got into a bash-fest but I will continue to use my green laser pointer RESPONSIBLY for public outreach.
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Barbara Moore
Aperture is everything!
www.astronomersgroup.org
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csa/montana
Den Mother
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 44058
Loc: montana
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This is not a decision, it is a fact. Astronomy has done just fine without lasers for sometime. Lasers are not a necessity to using a telescope, observing, or looking at the night sky. There is no deciding - just stating fact.
This is very true; however, it's these extra unessential tools that make observing more of a pleasure for many of us. Astronomy doesn't need "Go-to", Telrads, the list can go on & on; but they all work together to give Astronomers better observing times.
If someone doesn't like any of the tools, not "essential" to viewing; that's fine, I respect that; however, for those of us that use accessories, responsibly; then we ask that we also be respected.
I will continue using my laser, responsibly.
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
Garrett 20x80 TWP setup
DreamCatcher Dobservatory
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sixela
Postmaster
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 11499
Loc: Boechout, Belgium
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This is not a decision, it is a fact. Astronomy has done just fine without lasers for sometime.
And astronomy has done just fine without telescopes for a lot longer than that.
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Not at all - this is the same as saying I enjoy a lazy afternoon of watching football. Its not meant in a deragotory way.
If you want to be courteous, you should mind your language with the beholder in mind. You write what you write, not what you had in mind.
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There are certain freedoms we do not have and certain ways of conducting ourselves that are in fact dictated - these are the laws we decide to live under as being part of a society.
Yes. And there is no law against using laser pointers as finders or for astronomy outreach. Nor is there a need for such a law.
The FDA, by the way, regulates the industry responsible for laser entertainment shows, and even they will allow some shows to use their far more powerful lasers in even an FAA laser-free zone if alternative measures like dedicated spotters are used (and when I'm observing I'm certainly just as dedicated a spotter before I light the GLP for a couple of seconds), so you're being more Catholic than the pope in this matter.
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and that is why we drive with caution.
And that is why I use my laser pointer with caution too.
Mind you, I'm still a lot less likely to hurt anyone driving my laser than you are driving your car, despite all the cautionary measures you may be taking.
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I'm not a pilot but there are four here in my office and we own several planes. Two of them said that an unexplected flash of light could be distracting, one said probably not, and one is not here today.
Non-sequitur - I am on record as saying you should not distract pilots, just as you shouldn't drive over people with a car.
The question was how many pilots you know support a ban on using green laser pointers responsibly.
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I'm not insinuating, I'm offering a suggestion.
I respectfully beg to differ. If you say "let's be respectful and not do X", you are implying that X is disrespectful. That's more than a suggestion or saying "I'd suggest we do X".
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400mm f/4.46 self made Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Orion Starblast (114mm f/4 reflector, Alt/Az)
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o1d_dude
o1der than dirt
Reged: 10/03/07
Posts: 2274
Loc: The TV/SV Wolfpack
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I don't think the problem is with the <5mW green laser pointers. They're simply not that bright. You pretty much have to be standing within a meter of the unit in order to truly see the beam.
It's the GLPs that are >5mW. I have personally been momentarily "flashed" through the eyepiece by well-intentioned observing group leaders using higher powered units and it's startling to say the least.
Do I own a GLP? No, but I will probably purchase one in the near future as it will definitely help in pointing out various objects in the sky to my wife. For my circumstances, the <5.mW will do just fine.
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Kit
'Don’t worry about what telescope you own, or its quality. Just get out under the night sky, and enjoy God’s wondrous universe.' - Thomas M Back
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Don Trinko
sage
Reged: 07/05/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Ohio
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Yes; laser pointers are not a neccesity, neither are telescopes,Televisions, Cell phones, etc.
Medical doctors aren't neccisary either; If you don't mind dying before age 30.
Lets face it: Telescopes and accesories are all toy's for you and me and I like neat toy's! All this is IMO; You do have a right to dissagree and you won't be the first.
Don T.
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Nexstar 8SE
Celestron C6
Orion 4.5 Starblaster OTA
Meade DS2130at-lnt
Astro-Tech 66mm
Coranado PST 40mm
Celestron 9x63 Binoculars
Nikon 7x35 Binoculars
EP's 8 to 24 Zuhmell, 8 to 24 Hyperion, 8 to 24 TV, 32mm TV, 12.5 Astro-Tech Paradime, Celestron 40,26,9.7 plossel,
Zuhmell 32,12.5,6,4 plossel , TMB 5,3.2, planitary II.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3934
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
And as for it being an invisible beam - correct me if I'm wrong here - a 5 mW laser will travel about 10,000 feet. While this isn't cruising altitude for a jet liner, its well within reach of smaller aircraft and nearer to airports.
As has been pointed out before, stating a distance limit is pointless. The beam reaches out of the Solar System within a few hours. Obviously, it gets attenuated with distance, but much less than many people think. If you stand in a truly dark location and shine a 5 mW laser at a smooth surface 1/2 mile distant, you can *easily* see the illuminated spot. I've done that!
Obviously, if you were actually standing there having the light shining in your eyes, it would be all that much more visible. So yes, I don't doubt that somebody could *easily* see a laser 10,000 feet away if it was aimed directly at them from an otherwise dark location.
However, if it were aimed just one degree away from you, you wouldn't see a thing -- not even a hint. After all, the thing only has a fraction as much power as a conventional flashlight -- which would be barely visible (if at all) from 10,000 feet. And the flashlight's light spills all over the place, whereas the laser's beam hardly spreads at all out of its very tight cone.
So yes, if you had enough skill to target an airplane 2 miles up -- and it would take a lot of skill! -- and if the pilot had a window below his feet, as many helicopters do, and if you were standing at an otherwise dark spot, and the pilot were looking for you, then he could see you very easily.
But if you're using a laser responsibly, you're looking where it's pointed. And if you see an airplane anywhere near, you either turn off the beam or point it elsewhere. Therefore, the pilot never has so much as a hint that you're using a laser at all. As I said, the chance of a responsibly used laser being visible from an airplane is for all practical purposes zero.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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geezer@gpo
member
Reged: 11/06/05
Posts: 88
Loc: Southwestern Oregon
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Hi Alpal,
I recently read in a Canberra newspaper that mere possession of lasers is illegal in New South Wales by order of the NSW Parliament, but I inferred that they were not per se illegal to possess in other localities in Australia. Do I or did the Canberra press have it confused?
Just a matter of academic interest, but I do visit NSW from time to time so I made particular notice of the news report.
Thanks,
Kim J.
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Terminal optimisim is the lifeblood of adventure.
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arpruss
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/23/08
Posts: 964
Loc: Waco, TX
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Quote:
However, if it were aimed just one degree away from you, you wouldn't see a thing -- not even a hint. After all, the thing only has a fraction as much power as a conventional flashlight -- which would be barely visible (if at all) from 10,000 feet.
But wouldn't the concentrated part of the beam part perhaps illuminate some dust, so you would see a greenish line in the air, and might worry you're been targeted by a laser guided missile?
On a somewhat different question, while airplanes carry lights which makes it easy to avoid them (unless one does this stupid thing at a public star night: oh, look, a satellite, let me point it out; ooops! it's an airplane!), birds are hard to see unless there is light pollution, so when one points the pointer into the sky one might more easily be hitting birds, which, moreover, will typically be at a lower altitude. Is one in danger of causing serious harm to birds?
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Coulter Odyssey 13.1" split-tube
Coulter Odyssey 8"
Home-made 7.8" F/4 dobsonian travel scope
Home-made 68mm F/5.3 achro (typically used as finder on 13.1")
Skymaster 15x70
BPTs4 8x30
32mm Plossl, 30mm GSO SV, 30mm Rini, 27mm Kellner, 13mm Hyperion, 6mm TMB/BO Planetary, Owl 2X Barlow
Palm TX with AstroInfo and RescoViewer
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Adrian Lopez
sage
Reged: 10/22/08
Posts: 409
Loc: Puerto Rico
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But wouldn't the concentrated part of the beam part perhaps illuminate some dust, so you would see a greenish line in the air, and might worry you're been targeted by a laser guided missile?
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this suggestion. That's just not a reasonable thing for commercial pilots to be worried about in most civilized societies, and military pilots would not be targeted using visible lasers.
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Celestron Omni XLT 120 (f/8.3) Refractor
William Optics 1.25" Dielectric Diagonal
Celestron 4, 6, 9, 15, 25, and 32mm EPs
Nikon Action Extreme 8x40 Binoculars
Canon Digital Rebel XT
RA Sweep Calculator (find objects without GoTo)
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3934
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
However, if it were aimed just one degree away from you, you wouldn't see a thing -- not even a hint. After all, the thing only has a fraction as much power as a conventional flashlight -- which would be barely visible (if at all) from 10,000 feet.
But wouldn't the concentrated part of the beam part perhaps illuminate some dust, so you would see a greenish line in the air, and might worry you're been targeted by a laser guided missile?
No, not if the beam were aimed one degree away from the pilot. That's 175 feet at a distance of 10,000 feet. But you can barely see the scattered light from a 5-mW laser if you walk even 17 feet from the person who's projecting it, much less 175 feet.
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When one points the pointer into the sky one might more easily be hitting birds, which, moreover, will typically be at a lower altitude. Is one in danger of causing serious harm to birds?
You might hit birds, especially during migration season, but the probability is mighty low. And remember again -- being hit directly in the eye at close range by a 5-mW beam when you're fully dark-adapted is seriously unpleasant -- kind of like a newbies' first view of the full Moon through the eyepiece of a telescope. But it is *not* dangerous.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Joe Lalumia
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 4136
Loc: Rockwall, Texas, USA
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This is a really "silly" discussion. I own a 5mw laser pointer and use it from time to time at public outreach star parties. Beyond that---------- who cares. Higher powered lasers can be purchased. Just don't point them at me during a star party. Remember here in Texas we still believe you are completely free to do just about anything--- EXCEPT on my property! 
Just the ranting of an old guy.
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LX90 8" LNT, SV Nighthawk & TelePOD, ETX 90, Orion XT10i, SV 80/9d, 20x80 binoculars www.texasastro.org
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." - Albert Einstein
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Jason D
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/21/06
Posts: 3770
Loc: California
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Quote:
This is a really "silly" discussion.
I second Joe's comment.
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XT10 classic with premium optics
Tri-knob CR2 with compression rings
Round Table Platform
4.5" StarBlast
6" StarBlast6
TV EPs
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 35872
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
Quote:
This is a really "silly" discussion.
I second Joe's comment.
It's also running around in circles, and strayed far from anything "on topic" for a beginners equipment forum. Let's give this one a rest.
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Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Standing in a garden, contemplating the stars, and wondering how to put it all into words.
Carpe Lunam
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