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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25193
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
Just for giggles,
Three false premises out of three. You aren't likely to draw any useful conclusions that way.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
CI-700, NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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sailor70623
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/12/08
Posts: 940
Loc: Ok.
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What "false premises". Home land security has made it a FELONY to point any laser at any aircraft, due to it being posibily used to "bring the aircraft down". OOIDA went to court against the USDOT over the repeated use of laser on the front windshield of commercial vehicles (when these came out the manufactorer designed them to be shot at the back of cars and trucks), and the decision was that small lasers can not do any physical harm to one's eyes and can not/will not cause any distraction to the opperation of a vehicle. Those are facts, while not exactly the "same court" they are both US courts. And while the "court in DC decided that no small laser can do any physical harm to your eyes, I am not going to shine a laser in my eyes. But I also doubt that any small laser has ever been used to bring an air craft down, unless it was used as a sight for some other type of weapon. I was in the military and we do have laser guided ordinance.
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Corornado PST
LB 16" & 12"
Z 10"
LX50 8"
8" CPC
ETX127
102&90mm MAKs
80mm Richfield APO
70mm refractor
ETX60
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25193
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
What "false premises". Home land security has made it a FELONY to point any laser at any aircraft, due to it being posibily used to "bring the aircraft down".
There's one. Homeland security is not a court (You claimed above that a court had made a finding). It's not even the legislature so they can't make anything a felony. And I doubt that their spokesperson made the statement you quote and attribute to HS (can you provide a citation?). For the others: low power infrared lasers have nothing at all to do with laser pointers.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
CI-700, NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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sailor70623
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/12/08
Posts: 940
Loc: Ok.
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Sorry but yes, people have been cited with felony charges for this "Homeland Security ruling". HLS has the power to create rulings that are treated by the courts as LAW. Same power as OSHA, DOT, EPA, etc. These agencies are granted the power of Rule Making, which in effect are Federal laws. They are inforced by the courts, so that's the court rulings I am refering to. Yes a true law is passed by both the house and senate, and signed by the President before becomming law. However rulings by these special agencies and "Czars" bypass the law making process, are up held in our courts, so wheather you want to call them laws, or rules, the end efect is the same. You will get arrested, tried, fined and possibley put in prison. Law, rule, call it whatyamacallits, if they treat it like a law, I respect it like a law, so I refer to it as a law. And yes this "Rule" applies to red lasers too.
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Corornado PST
LB 16" & 12"
Z 10"
LX50 8"
8" CPC
ETX127
102&90mm MAKs
80mm Richfield APO
70mm refractor
ETX60
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Bill Weir
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 1297
Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
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Many seem to refer to the beam like it stays that little tiny dot all those many meters away. It is an expanding cone of light that is extremely bright and by the time it has reached couple of thousand meters in the air may be a couple of meters across. Think of that dot you have shot a long distance away on a tree or hillside. You can still see it. Do you think you would still be able to see it if it was only a couple of mm across? I can't read a book across a room, let alone a km away.
I've lost an email that was written by a very bright person who crunched the numbers on laser brightness and how big the circle would be way way up in the air. The brightness was something many factors brighter than looking at the Sun.
Bill
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6'' Orion SkyQuest
12.5'' f/5 Custom Truss Dob
William Optics 80mm ZenithStar ED II
f/5 25" newtonian on a giant GEM, any time I want
Observing sessions grand total for 2008, 121.
So far in 2009, 92
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ken svp120
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/19/04
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
What "false premises". Home land security has made it a FELONY to point any laser at any aircraft, due to it being posibily used to "bring the aircraft down".
There's one. Homeland security is not a court (You claimed above that a court had made a finding). It's not even the legislature so they can't make anything a felony. And I doubt that their spokesperson made the statement you quote and attribute to HS (can you provide a citation?). For the others: low power infrared lasers have nothing at all to do with laser pointers.
John - another way to look at this is to liken it to the IRS. The IRS is not a court, yet as you probably know it makes many regulations. Courts may then cite you with a crime for certain violations thereof.
My overall take on this issue after watching all this back and forth though is that we shouldn't be using laser pointers aimed up through a night sky. Period. No - I don't think there is a great likelihood of them bringing down a plane and no I don't think they are an overwhelming distraction to pilots. HOWEVER, in this day and age with the current events taking place - why do we want to take that chance or run the risk of a misinterpretted act? I almost look at it as that we have become exceedingly lazy. What happened to pointing at something with your finger and trying to verbalize where it's at? What happened to locating things with a normal finder scope? And we even have computer guidance systems that require no laser.
Honestly I do not see any need for them astronomically. Are they a convenience? Sure. Is there any real need for them? Absolutely not.
Again - why run the risk? We've done without until very recently. We want everyone else to protect our skies. We should respect a pilots wishes to be as little distracted as possible while flying through them.
Sorry for the brief rant...just my thoughts...
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Orion 120 Refractor
Orion SkyviewPro Mount, Single Axis Drive
Losmandy G11 Mount, Non-Gemini
TEC 140 Apochromat #300
Meade DSI Pro II Monochrome
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2682
sage
Reged: 02/18/08
Posts: 210
Loc: The Heartland
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We had three different men arrested in Columbus, OH within a week for pointing lasers at aircraft.
One of them had it attached to a rifle. Nothing to worry about here!
I suggest people check out: laserpointersafety.com for further information.
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Benders 900/9 1180/9.29
Folder LB8 1219/6
"(Sigh!) I sold it for a song. But, that song was 'White Christmas.' I made millions!" - Montgomery Burns
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GUNER
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 1614
Loc: Bedminster,NJ USA
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ken svp120,
I can't agree with your brief rant. I use my laser to point out objects during outreach. It is far eaiser to show a group this way & why shouldn't I? Because some moron can't control himself & has to flash his laser at planes? Under that same line of thought we shouldn't drive because people drive drunk,we should all use public tranportation.
A laser pointer is a tool just that. If you use it as a adult you should be fine. If not you should be given the punishment the law says.
I can't stand how people get on to don't use/banning things that people use just because of the lowest common denominator.
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Thomas
17mm ETHOS NEAF Door Prize
THANK-YOU TELEVUE!!!!
12" SuperCharged LX-200 GPS
TAK SKY 90 on a Vixen Skypod
Stacked GOLD!PST/EXT-70AT/DSX-125
Infinity 2-1 CCD Camera with Lucam Recorder
Custom Scientific 1.25" LRGB filters
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ischua
Under the Radar
Reged: 07/17/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Franklinville New York
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good reads
http://www.fda.gov/Radiation-EmittingProducts/ElectronicProductRadiationControlProgram/LawsandRegulations/default.htm
http://www.fda.gov/Radiation-EmittingProducts/RadiationSafety/AlertsandNotices/ucm116534.htm
http://www.fda.gov/Radiation-EmittingProducts/RadiationSafety/AlertsandNotices/ucm153548.htm
Nominal Hazard Zones for Visible Diode Pointers
Power: 5 mW - Divergence: 1 mr - beam size: 2 mm
Based on: FAA 74002D Outdoor Laser/High Intensity Light Demonstration
Nominal Hazard Zone 5mw laser
BLINK REFLEX 51 ft
FLASH-BLINDNESS/AFTERIMAGE 262 ft
GLARE 1,171 ft
"NO EFFECT" 11,707 ft
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Mike
Meade 2080
and assorted parts
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BarbMoore
member
Reged: 05/11/09
Posts: 36
Loc: New Mexico
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Why is common sense so uncommon?
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Barbara Moore
Aperature is everything!
www.astronomersgroup.org
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Dain
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/24/05
Posts: 1596
Loc: N.Y. Adirondack Mnts. NGC 4565...
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Quote:
Why is common sense so uncommon?
I think most people have common sense, they just feel too lazy to use it.
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Best,
Dain
Adirondack Mountains (my true dark sky site)
@ Cedar River Flow
Local Site
Clear Skies?
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ken svp120
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/19/04
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ohio
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Quote:
ken svp120,
I can't agree with your brief rant. I use my laser to point out objects during outreach. It is far eaiser to show a group this way & why shouldn't I? Because some moron can't control himself & has to flash his laser at planes? Under that same line of thought we shouldn't drive because people drive drunk,we should all use public tranportation.
A laser pointer is a tool just that. If you use it as a adult you should be fine. If not you should be given the punishment the law says.
I can't stand how people get on to don't use/banning things that people use just because of the lowest common denominator.
Thomas,
One one point I completely agree with you - things should not be banned because of the lowest common denominator.
However, we have no need of pointing lasers into a dark sky where we can not honestly know for sure that nothing in that sky is in the path of that beam. I called it lazy in my post and you completely support my suspicion by saying "its far easier, why shouldn't I?" I'm not trying to pick a fight and we may just have to agree to disagree. But in my mind, the reason we shouldn't is that there are pilots in the sky with the lives of others in their hands. If lasers distract them, worry them, or in any slight way make their job more difficult, we should be respectful of that and refrain from using them.
This isn't about one person intentionally aiming at a plane. This about an entire group of folks wanting to shine laser beams into the night sky. And another whole group who is imacted by that.
If the pilots as a group said, sure this is fine then I would have a different take on this. But that's not what I'm hearing nor is it what I would suppose we would hear. Let's be respectful of other's use of the night sky just as we ask them to be respectful of our use of it.
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Orion 120 Refractor
Orion SkyviewPro Mount, Single Axis Drive
Losmandy G11 Mount, Non-Gemini
TEC 140 Apochromat #300
Meade DSI Pro II Monochrome
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40200
Loc: montana
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Again, common sense should prevail. I have a laser mounted on my scope. I live under very dark skies. Before using it, I scan the sky for any aircraft; & listen for any. They are a very useful tool, when used properly.
BTW, I do have a pilot's license.
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3468
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
We have no need of pointing lasers into a dark sky
I'm curious, have you ever used a laser pointer? Somehow, I'm getting the feeling that you don't know much about how they actually work in practice.
Quote:
Where we can not honestly know for sure that nothing in that sky is in the path of that beam.
The only thing that could possibly be in the path of the beam without your knowing it is a military aircraft flying in stealth mode -- and anybody who does that can't complain about the consequences. In any case, they'll be too high to be bothered by a laser.
Civilian aircraft are required to have running lights, and you can see their running lights far more easily than they can see your laser.
There is ZERO chance of blinding or distracting a pilot by a responsibly used laser. Well, not zero. You could fall unconscious, and the laser beam could sweep across a plane as you fall to the ground. But by the same token, the plane could be knocked out of the sky by a meteorite.
Quote:
I called it lazy in my post and you completely support my suspicion by saying "its far easier, why shouldn't I?"
Laziness has nothing to do with it. Laser pointers have revolutionized the whole experience of astronomy outreach. The difference is qualitative, not quantitative. The closest equivalent -- a bright white flashlight with a well-focused beam -- is far more light-polluting than a laser.
There is an aesthetic argument against using laser pointers that has some legitimacy. Your argument based on airplanes is based on faulty factual premises.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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ken svp120
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/19/04
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ohio
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Tony,
Yes I have used a laser pointer and been next to other club members also using them. I know how they work.
And as to the zero chance of distraction - you have absolutely no way of saying what impact your actions will have on someone else. We might like to think that our lasers have zero chance of distracting someone - but that is hardly our call and would be very presumptious to claim to know.
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Orion 120 Refractor
Orion SkyviewPro Mount, Single Axis Drive
Losmandy G11 Mount, Non-Gemini
TEC 140 Apochromat #300
Meade DSI Pro II Monochrome
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40200
Loc: montana
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Quote:
And as to the zero chance of distraction - you have absolutely no way of saying what impact your actions will have on someone else. We might like to think that our lasers have zero chance of distracting someone - but that is hardly our call and would be very presumptious to claim to know.
Again, common precautions should prevail; many of us use our lasers responsibly, and will continue to do so.
BTW, being a pilot, & being in a flightpath; I contacted the FAA, & asked in advance about using my laser. I explained the precautions I take, and they thanked me for being responsible, & they have no problem with me using it............responsibly.
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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Brian L
super member
Reged: 11/17/08
Posts: 118
Loc: The garden paradise of Pittsbu...
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I can think of only a very narrow set of circumstances where a 5mW GLP on the ground could even remotely pose a threat to a civilian aircraft. You'd have to have line-of-sight between the ground and the cockpit, which would have to be either during final approach or from a distance far enough away that the dispersion of the beam would not pose a threat to the pilots vision.
For an aircraft flying at 5,000 ft., you'd have to be several miles away to have a realistic angle to the cockpit. At this distance, beam dispersion and the intensity of light in an area the size of a human pupil doesn't pose a threat. In any case, hitting the cockpit of a plane from 3 miles away with a beam 3 meters in diameter would not be an easy target. The beam would have an angular size of about 2 arcmin at that distance. Even if you were intentionally trying to blind a pilot with such a device, it would be a pretty difficult task given the line-of-sight geometry and the beam dispersion.
However, it's also easy to envision some whacko out there with a more powerful laser properly mounted with some well aligned high quality optics that could be much more effectively targeted on an airliner. I think many of us on CN have the knowledge and most of the equipment to do this. There may be an existential threat to pilot's vision from an effectively targeted higher power laser, but not from these 5mW astronomical laser pointers. Still, it must not be easy for a pilot to distinguish them from the air. Thus, the strong reaction on the part of law enforcement to any laser of any sort being pointed at an airliner. If you're in an approach corridor to a major airport, you might want to nix the GLP.
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WO FLT-110 f/6.5, TEC optics
Losmandy G-11 Gemini
Meade 10" LX200 GPS/UHTC
Questar 3.5" Standard
Vixen VMC-110L
Canon 450D, unmodified
Assortment of TV Panoptic, TV Radian, Vixen LVW, and WO eyepieces
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calibos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/18/07
Posts: 1051
Loc: Ireland
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Ken, Tony isn't make a subjective judgement on a pilots threshold distraction tolerance, ie what it takes to distract him. The point is that a certain distance away the laser looks no different to a street light except its green. Its not illuminating the cockpit with green light, its not causing the pilot to turn away, it simply looks like a green streetlight way off in the distance. Your arguement only holds if you think a green streetlight distracts a pilot more than an orange or white one.
At the distances where a laser is brighter from the point of view of the pilot, where there is the slim chance the beam was directed in the window and were the cockpit would indeed be illuminated with a green glow and be a distraction. Well at those kind of distances, you'll have heard the plane long before you've seen it, you'll have seen it long before it flys through your beam and you'll have switched your laser off well in advance.
Hence, what is the problem??
I've had a fellow observer almost launch himself at me like a slo-mo scene in a movie, like he was trying to block my shot with a pistol, shouting...."NOOOooooooooo....." all because an airliner at cruising altitude was tracking across the sky towards the beam about 90 degrees of sky away!!
I was like WTH!! Calm the hell down man. There is nothing more annoying than someone telling you not to do something when you can see they don't know what they are talking about. I am talking about him not you.
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Keith D.
Knightrider - 16" Meade Lightbridge - See Here
Moonlite CR Focusser with Rigel motofocus and Filterslide (2" Orion Variable Polorizer,UHC & H-Beta, Lumicon OIII)
Stellarvue F80M2 80mm Finder
Dewbuster and DewNot Dew Control
Servocat & SkyCommander
Howie Glatter Holograhic Collimator and Blug
Baader Hyperion 21/32mm,17mm,13mm,8mm,5mm,3.5mm EP
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3468
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
And as to the zero chance of distraction - you have absolutely no way of saying what impact your actions will have on someone else.
It's absolutely true -- if I clap my hands, the universe might come to an end. Didn't happen last time, but you never know ...
I would think that it's impossible to be distracted by something that you can't see. And a pilot *certainly* can't see your laser unless you shine it right at him (or her).
But who knows, you might be right, pilots may be distracted by invisible light beams all the time.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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lightfever
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/27/04
Posts: 1274
Loc: Macomb Michigan
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Quote:
However, we have no need of pointing lasers into a dark sky where we can not honestly know for sure that nothing in that sky is in the path of that beam.
If the plane is so far away that you can't notice it, the laser pointer is not going to bother anyone that flies by the beam.
The problem is during landing and take off when you have a moron or an individual with sinister intent continually lazing the cockpit.
This seems to be the day and age of overreaction IMHO.
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Mark
Tasco 15-TE 76mm
Sky Watcher 80mm ED
AT-111 Triplet
XT8i (with Woden re-figured mirror)
Discovery 12.5" f/5 Premium DHQ (PDHQ Split-tube Dobsonian)
12.5" f/6.3 Dob (Underconstruction)
Celestron CG-5GT EQ Mount
Celestron C4 EQ Mount
"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to dance in the rain" unknown
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