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jerryyyyy
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 10/06/11

Loc: Stanford, California
Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: smartyuk]
      #5045228 - 01/30/12 12:03 AM

Guys, have gone over to the dark side and bought and Orion Atlas mount. This is the story of the first few days and the first image.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5040654/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1


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Uggbits
sage


Reged: 04/28/10

Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: smartyuk]
      #5045315 - 01/30/12 01:38 AM

Some great stuff going on in here guys. I hope you take my comments as helpful/constructive, since I really love to see what you are doing with these mounts, and I think you are off to a great start so far!

Jerry I like where you are going with your imaging. I notice that you have just moved to a GEM, which provided you get a sound polar alignment will give you an excellent platform to work with. You can pull more out of both your M74 and M82. From a cursory glance, the M82 image has a significantly higher SNR, which is a definite step forward (stands to reason when you consider the relative surface brightnesses). Go with the longest exposure your mount (and conditions) can provide but total exposure rules. 60 minutes at 45 seconds is better than 45 minutes at 60 seconds provided the target in question is of an appropriate brightness. I will explain the drawbacks of this later. You can also be a bit more aggressive in your processing since it appears you captured quite a bit of data.

Maverick - love the Orion shot (one of my favorite targets). As I mention below, calibration is of great importance. You can also look into the shadow/highlight options in photoshop, or learn how to mask in photoshop to control the brightness in the trapezium and keep the dynamic range of the image. The background looks a little red on my monitor, but that may be thermal noise (removed by darks) or just a weird colour scheme on my end. Flats would control the light fall-off allowing you to bring out some of the fainter elements that are a bit hard to spot (but present) in your current rendition. Very nice capture, and a great job with keeping the stars round. This isn't always easy to do in alt/az, but you did very will.

Calibration is the most important aspect of astrophotography. I have had a few opportunities to discuss the topic with a local operator who has 60 years of experience in photography at the Dominion Astrophysical Observatory and those are his words. Take your calibration frames every time, and even short exposures can reveal lots of information. Since the image has many/most defects removed, you are left with just the signal to work with, therefore garnering the best image possible with the available data.

As I mentioned above total exposure rules. I said that 60 minutes of 45 second exposures would generally trump 45 minutes of 60 second exposures. Lets get into this a bit with an example of an imagined galaxy. Say the core of said galaxy had a nice amount of detail that was relatively bright compared to the outer areas of the galaxy and it delivered a photon to the sensor every 30 seconds. The 60 second shots and the 45 second shots would both contain the data (1.5 photons on average, and 2 photons on average). In this case the image with 60 minutes of total exposure will likely have a higher SNR when compared to the 45 minute image since each stack consists of frames containing information from the area in question. For most objects in the Messier catalog this is the case; Alex Post produced a series of remarkable images with just 10s exposures, but a large total exposure #.

On the same imagined galaxy an outer arm is much fainter than the core, and delivers a photon every minute and a half. Now two out of every three one minute frames contain a piece of information from that outer region (while still containing 2 photons from the core region). The 45 second frames will only have the piece every second frame. Theoretically this discrepancy will not create an issue if you combine the frames through an averaging or median technique, but clipping methods are often used to create higher SNR's on the imaging target, while clipping out useless data (bad tracking, planes flying through, satellites, clouds, etc). If the clipping method needs the information to be present in<60% of frames to be maintained, then both images will capture the bright regions of the galaxy (in fact the 45 second frames will capture it better), but the outer faint regions may only appear in the 45 minute image of one minute frames despite the lower total exposure. This is important when hunting faint galaxies and hydrogen alpha data, but as mentioned above most objects do not fall into this category.

*Disclaimer-In my two scenarios the numbers for both sub frames and total exposures were just to illustrate the point and not actually representative of a more realistic example. Generally it's more on the order of a 5 minute exposure vs a 1 minute exposure.

Hope some of that made sense (I'm tired and have been doing history readings for 4 hours). If you want to take a look at some of my imaging there are a few examples in the "graduates" imaging thread.

Great job guys,

Dan


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jerryyyyy
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 10/06/11

Loc: Stanford, California
Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: Uggbits]
      #5045615 - 01/30/12 10:27 AM

Uggbits, thanks for the theoretical information. This is the best info on the difference between many shorts versus few shots.

One of the unfortunate issues with the standard 8se was that even though I was very careful with 30 or 45s exposures you would get trails on say 50 or 60% of the frames, which would then be rejected by DSS. Thus, effectively you will only get a very small number of useful frames. Now I get the 10s idea and possibly changing the DSS methods for stacking, so i have to see what I was using. In any case, I have my many original subs on my laptop and this gives me a good experiment to conduct this next weekend as I have 12h in a plane...

I have just got the GEM calibrated enough to get the one set of shots from a couple nights ago as it was cloudy here last night.

To my eyes it is very clear I can get better images with the GEM. I started taking 60, then 90 then 120s subs and it looks like I can get up to 360s with no problems. In any case, the image of M82 with only a few of these longer subs is better than anything I could get with the shorter ones. But, this is probably not the best test as it seems pretty bright.

My current project is M74 which is duller. I have to master the go to functions of the Atlas which are less user friendly than the Celestron products.

My worry when I bought the 8se was that it would not be able to punch through my local light pollution, but obviously it can. Thus the investment in the good mount is worth it. In this context, please note the filter below. This seems to have the same characteristics as the Orion filter and others, but when I was using it on the shorts subs, the pictures were really dull (seemed to lose a couple stops) and in short subs and dull objects, I think this is a killer. I am looking forward to trying it on longer subs.

Edited by jerryyyyy (01/30/12 10:35 AM)


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hopskipson
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/24/10

Loc: Queens, New Yawk, Light pollut...
Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: jerryyyyy]
      #5046771 - 01/30/12 08:42 PM Attachment (28 downloads)

Here's a picture of the waxing crecent on 1/28

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dotknott
member


Reged: 08/14/11

Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar *DELETED* new [Re: hopskipson]
      #5048744 - 01/31/12 08:36 PM

Post deleted by dotknott

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dotknott
member


Reged: 08/14/11

Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: dotknott]
      #5048747 - 01/31/12 08:37 PM Attachment (25 downloads)

Same Subject, Next Night, Providence RI Flipped!

Edited by dotknott (01/31/12 08:38 PM)


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hopskipson
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/24/10

Loc: Queens, New Yawk, Light pollut...
Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: dotknott]
      #5048837 - 01/31/12 09:32 PM

Nice Picture dotknott. Did you use a filter? I really like the exposure level, you have more detail especially near the limb. I'm still very new to this and only have my camera for 2 months.

James


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dotknott
member


Reged: 08/14/11

Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: hopskipson]
      #5048867 - 01/31/12 09:47 PM

James,

Yeah I believe I had a ND filer on while taking this one (though I will be honest, I wasn't taking very good notes while shooting... )

Photo Specs:
ISO 100
Shutter Speed 1/40

What kind of camera are you shooting with?


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hopskipson
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/24/10

Loc: Queens, New Yawk, Light pollut...
Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: dotknott]
      #5050625 - 02/01/12 09:40 PM

I'm using a Canon T2i (550D). I rushed the shot as I was loosing my subject to the horizon. I used a .63 focal reducer/field flattner no filter.
ISO 2000, Shutter Speed 1/250 I think I picked the shutter speed and either the camera was set to or chose the ISO. I wish I had more time to devote but so many things to do so little time!

James


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Tel
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 03/31/06

Loc: Wallingford England
Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: hopskipson]
      #5051829 - 02/02/12 02:30 PM Attachment (22 downloads)

Hi James, Hi dotknott,

Very fine captures folks ! I did however try to look for any extra data contained within them and took your image, James, as an example because as you stated, you don't have too much time, (unlike me) on your hands !

As a result, I believe there was more data to bring out of your image when stretching it a little in P/Shop.

What d'you think ?

Best regards,
Tel

(BTW. I had to reduce the size a little to fit CNs image size restrictions).


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hopskipson
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/24/10

Loc: Queens, New Yawk, Light pollut...
Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: Tel]
      #5054175 - 02/03/12 09:10 PM

Thanks Tel it looks great. I haven't yet commited to all on AP. I like the idea of it but the execution needs lots of time and money to do it right. I'll keep plugging away and sharing what I get. I don't have a copy of PS but the camera was suplied with some kind of processing software (EOS utility) that I haven't tried out yet. Thanks again.

James


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Tel
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 03/31/06

Loc: Wallingford England
Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: hopskipson]
      #5054571 - 02/04/12 06:04 AM

Hi James,

Yes, you're absolutely right, AP does take a lot of time and dedication which, particularly in my case, is unfortunately often coupled with a whole dose of frustration ! ( My word ! The number of fruitless attempts I've made at various objects is legion) !

BUT it can be done as you, yourself have proved with this moon shot. The data is there; it only takes a little further processing to bring it out.

Talking of which and in the absence of P/Shop: --- (and processing is very much where the emergence of a good image lies): --- have you considered using the freeware processing software, "Gimp" ?

I downloaded it at one stage, just out of curiosity, and played a little with it. I have to say I found it pretty good and naturally, ..... very cost effective ! I still have it as a backup to P/Shop on my PC.

Keep snapping !

Best regards,
Tel


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hopskipson
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/24/10

Loc: Queens, New Yawk, Light pollut...
Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: Tel]
      #5054764 - 02/04/12 09:52 AM

Tel
Thanks for the words of encouragement. With 4 little ones running around my wife feels I devote too much time to this hobby, but I'll keep snapping away after bedtime stories of course. Thanks for the tip on GIMP

James


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Maverick199
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/27/11

Loc: India
Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: hopskipson]
      #5056336 - 02/05/12 07:34 AM Attachment (26 downloads)

Getting late but Saturn was rising so I took a one minute movie ( crop mode with barlow ) and stacked the frames in Avistack. Hope you like the result.

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dotknott
member


Reged: 08/14/11

Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: Maverick199]
      #5056372 - 02/05/12 08:06 AM

nice! Have yet to get a look at saturn... i either have clouds or work in the AM.

Some girls just have no luck.


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Maverick199
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/27/11

Loc: India
Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: dotknott]
      #5056485 - 02/05/12 09:29 AM

Thanks! You will eventually see it as it moves up. One of the best sights up there.

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dotknott
member


Reged: 08/14/11

Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: Maverick199]
      #5056507 - 02/05/12 09:43 AM

Yeah, I was able to see mars a little while ago, but it only rose above the tree line just before I had to start packing up my equipment... I can't wait to see it.

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hopskipson
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/24/10

Loc: Queens, New Yawk, Light pollut...
Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: Maverick199]
      #5056537 - 02/05/12 09:54 AM

Nice image Haseeb.
Are you using a web cam/video camera? I tried once with the Celestron device but could not get Jupiter in focus. I'm guessing the barlow helps? Once again Great capture!

Dotknott, hang in there by summer Saturn will be up earlier. I was a little dissapointed last year (my 1st time ) by the size in the EP but it is still a stunning sight.

James


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Peter9
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/30/08

Loc: Yorkshire - Born & Bred
Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: hopskipson]
      #5056648 - 02/05/12 10:55 AM

Hi Haseeb.

Thats a lovely image of Saturn with Cassini well defined.

As you say, it will be much better placed for A.P and visual around May/June Time for "Northern" viewers.

Thanks for posting.

Regards. Peter.


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Maverick199
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/27/11

Loc: India
Re: AP Images Taken with Original NexStar new [Re: Peter9]
      #5056669 - 02/05/12 11:10 AM

Thanks hopskipson, I used a T2i. I have a Neximage which focuses well without a Barlow but difficult with a barlow. I get by with the DSLR. You shouldn't have a problem focusing without a barlow but the image appears small. Hope you tweak the gain / saturation / hue / brightness / gamma / contrast and switch off the 'auto exposure' box.

Thanks Peter, that's the first time I imaged the CD. Wish I could get more frames to bring out more detail and colour.


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