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Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

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OBERWERK
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Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: OH
Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: daniel_h]
      #5178883 - 04/18/12 04:48 PM

Quote:

Gordon I can't believe this but I find myself agreeing with your above post...





Yep, after putting my theory to test, I have to agree with Gordon as well. Dang. I never gave the elongated objective hinge ring holes much thought until Mr. Bill questioned them. Pondered that over a couple of Founder's Double Trouble IPA's, and came up with an explanation that sounded plausible at first glance, but found was incorrect when I put it on paper to prove it. The center of the hinge doesn't change regardless of any offset of something attached somewhere along it. However, we know the elongated holes are necessary, if they were round and tight, alignment would change with IPD. I have another idea about that, will run it by a design engineer at the factory before posting again.


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Mr. Bill
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: OBERWERK]
      #5178921 - 04/18/12 05:07 PM

Kevin

Glad for your input into this discussion....I'm puzzled why we haven't heard from Garrett as I know they are aware of this thread (I told them) and it is about their product.



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Mr. Bill
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #5180313 - 04/19/12 01:27 PM

One other thought on product improvement....how much more would it cost to use eps like Fuji uses as I think better eps would make a big difference in field illumination and edge of field correction. I've always felt that the weak point of Chinese binoculars is the eyepieces.

If the price point was $500 for a pair of 25x100s, what could the Chinese produce?

Edited by Mr. Bill (04/19/12 02:24 PM)


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Gordon Rayner
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: Rich V.]
      #5180731 - 04/19/12 07:31 PM

" .... very likely have to compromise the system by tilting a prism anyhow" "You now have a conditionally aligned binocular".
Instead of prism tilting, consider prism sliding of Porro II prisms ,which is the factory alignment adjustment method for the Fuji 25 x 150 II. The heavier earlier model, I, including the 90 deg inclined astronomy version , has double eccentrics around each objective lens. If 1972 to about 1989 eccentrics are hopelessly corroded, such as from galvanic brass-aluminum-salt water sacrifice of aluminum, I have converted them to sliding the Porro II prism cluster(s), by adding fine thread setscrews/grubscrews through the wall of the prism drum.

For an early Fuji 25 x 150 so modified, one neutralizes the eccentrics first. The current Fuji II has no eccentrics. In a modified model I, or any model II, the technician disconnects the link between the prism housings, and swings one prism housing through a large arc, even a full circle. During this, the position of a direct "peek around" view of the distant target is compared, via a beam combining comparator such as the handheld JTII or equivalent, to the view of the target through the binocular half. Alternatively, a telescope large enough to see the eyepiece throughout a large swing, and to peek around the body, or a beamsplit laser, or other possibilities come to mind. The Porro II cluster is slowly pushed, via fine pitch setscrews/grubscrews , in an appropriate direction, until the image through the barrel under test remains superimposed and stationary atop the peek-around direct image, throughout the swing.

This technique requires repeated removal and replacement of the prism housing cover-eyepiece assembly, to unclamp the prisms, adjust with the setscrews/grubscrews, and reclamp.

The Nikon 20 x 120 I and II can be similarly treated, after setscrews/grubscrews are added as pushers. Incidentally, the Nikon 20 x 120 I and II have eccentric pairs around only one of the objective lenses. The other objective is surrounded by a concentric cell and ring.

This tiltless process , if combined with stable, well machined bodies and rotating mechanisms with parallel axes , and well-centered lenses and tilt-free mounting of them , goes a long way toward the goal of intra-barrel optical collimation combined with optomechanical parallelism of the two optical axes and the two axes around which the two prism housings rotate.

I am probably not alone when I say that I like the clear thinking and exposition which you have repeatedly demonstrated.

Edited by Gordon Rayner (04/20/12 01:30 AM)


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Rich V.
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: Gordon Rayner]
      #5180819 - 04/19/12 08:33 PM

Quote:

This tiltless process , if combined with stable, well machined bodies and rotating mechanisms with parallel axes , and well-centered lenses and tilt-free mounting of them , goes a long way toward the goal of intra-barrel optical collimation combined with optomechanical parallelism of the two optical axes and the two axes around which the two prism housings rotate.




Thanks, Gordon, that's a very interesting post. I think the above is very well stated; I wish binoculars with these attributes were readily available to all of us!

You've answered several questions I've had but never asked regarding large fixed objective binos with Porro II prism turrets. Your explanation of the earlier Fuji and Nikon sliding prism convention makes me wonder why most newer designs don't still use that method. It must be more economical to make a three point tilt plate.

Though the newer large Fujis don't have objective eccentrics anymore, do you know if they still retain the sliding prism in the cans? I've neglected to ask Mr. Bill if he ever opened up the cans of his 150 Fujis to see their internal workings. I think he likes to open things up to see what's going on as much as I do.

It seems to me that when you get to a 25x100 size like these Garretts or even larger, simply scaling a conventional central hinge binocular design up in size may not be the best answer. Making a rigid OTA and using some kind of rotating turret for IPD adjustment just starts to make more sense. Here is where the BT designs like the big Fujis, Nikons and Miyauchis come into their own.

Best regards,

Rich


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Gordon Rayner
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: Rich V.]
      #5181149 - 04/20/12 01:27 AM

The current Fuji 25 x 150 have sliding prisms, and no eccentrics. The 1972 to about 1989 model, in factory stock condition, have eccentrics around the objectives, with no adjustment screws for sliding the prisms. As discussed such screws can be added by tapping through the drum wall. The blobs of brittle gray glue/ their residue are to be chipped off, of course, before the setscrew/grubscrew method is used .

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OBERWERK
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Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: OH
Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: OBERWERK]
      #5181490 - 04/20/12 10:05 AM

Quote:

...However, we know the elongated holes are necessary, if they were round and tight, alignment would change with IPD. I have another idea about that, will run it by a design engineer at the factory before posting again.




Confirmed with an engineer at the factory- the reason for the elongated objective ring holes is simply to accomodate for any machining error in the collection of parts that extend the body hinge to the objective hinge, and to ensure that any minor error in the mechanical hinge will not effect optical alignment.
I checked some of my stock, some don't seem to need the elongation (especially the shorter 20x80's), others require the elongation by varying amounts.


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: OBERWERK]
      #5181657 - 04/20/12 12:15 PM

Kevin,
Didn't I surmise that earlier here?

Edited by GlennLeDrew (04/20/12 12:24 PM)


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Mr. Bill
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5186169 - 04/23/12 11:16 AM

Cory has the glass....



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daniel_h
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #5187164 - 04/23/12 09:55 PM

Cory are you listening...err reading? can you post the degree of collimation error?

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daniel_h
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: daniel_h]
      #5211514 - 05/08/12 06:44 AM Attachment (27 downloads)

I thought i would add to tho thread - having just bought a 25x100 IF myself from a local retailer selling Kunming -united optics binoculars..let me say it is neither GARRETT optical nor OBERWERK
anyway take a look at the following pics -first the good barrel

Edited by daniel_h (05/08/12 06:44 AM)


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daniel_h
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: daniel_h]
      #5211516 - 05/08/12 06:45 AM Attachment (28 downloads)

now 2 photos of the other barrel

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daniel_h
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: daniel_h]
      #5211517 - 05/08/12 06:46 AM Attachment (25 downloads)

and another - taken with my phone so quality isn't good

anyone like to make comment???

Edited by daniel_h (05/08/12 06:47 AM)


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EdZ
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Reged: 02/15/02

Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: daniel_h]
      #5211520 - 05/08/12 06:49 AM

So, what are we looking at? What is it you hope for us to see?

edz


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daniel_h
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: EdZ]
      #5211522 - 05/08/12 06:51 AM

the goo in the bottom of the barrel before the baffle

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EdZ
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: daniel_h]
      #5211526 - 05/08/12 06:55 AM

if it's not in the light cone path, it's probably not doing anything. Not pretty, but probably not a problem.
Are you sure it's goo? I mean is it gooey goo, runny goo? Is it going to drip on the lenses? Or is it solid goo, never going to move? Or is it simply unblackened inside of barrel?


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daniel_h
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: EdZ]
      #5211548 - 05/08/12 07:24 AM

It's raised up off the barrel, so it's not just unblackened barrel, it actually looks like the insulation you spray on your house walls or in the ceiling, except it's inside the barrel

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GlennLeDrew
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Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: daniel_h]
      #5211748 - 05/08/12 10:24 AM

Certainly not pretty, but probably not harmful, either. It doesn't intrude into the light path, and so will not reduce illumination. Being far down the barel, and close to the prism assembly, it's somewhat less likely to scatter light into the field of view than it would if located nearer the objective. This is because, as 'seen' from the focal surface, this stuff will be angularly farther from the optical axis.

In any event, another reason why I prefer to make my own binos...


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Mr. Bill
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #5211756 - 05/08/12 10:27 AM

Quote:

Cory has the glass....






Still waiting for return from Cory. He sent me an email that I was in the que.


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Mr. Bill
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Re: MrBill's review of Gemini 25x100 IF MkII binos new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #5215371 - 05/10/12 12:01 PM Attachment (23 downloads)

Binos shipped...should get back tomorrow or Sat.

Good thing I sent these to Cory...the problem apparently was not mere collimation issue, but a misalignment that needed disassembly and milling of the prism housings to correct before collimation could happen.

Don't know if this is a problem specific to my pair or a general problem, but my guess is that there is aassembly/design problem.

Stay tuned for further details as I am disscussing this with Cory via emails.



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