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General Astronomy >> General Observing and Astronomy

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BuffaloTri
member


Reged: 04/23/12

Help with M56 new
      #5270849 - 06/14/12 09:34 AM

Last night I star hopped my way through Lyra, starting with Vega. Light pollution in my area is terrible, Vega is the only star I can see with the naked eye in Lyra. I observed the double-double, an open cluster, some other doubles in the constellation, and M57. M57 looked like a little gray ball, with a slightly brighter border.

Lyra was high in the sky, so I decided to hop to M56 and then Albireo. Albireo was easy to spot, but I never did find M56. I hopped back and forth between Albireo and M57 a few times just to be certain that I was in the right area, but no luck with M56.

I've never seen a globular cluster before, so I'm not sure what to expect. I was looking for either a gray ball like M57 or a large and blurry star. What should I look for? Is there too much LP for me to see M56?


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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: BuffaloTri]
      #5270887 - 06/14/12 09:51 AM

Welcome to Cloudy Nights! Glad you joined the site, & the great group hanging around in here!

Here is a finder chart for M56.

chart

And, here is an image of M56.

Image

I don't know how visible it would be with bad LP, however. Also, what scope were you using?


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craytab
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/10/11

Loc: Bethlehem, PA
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: BuffaloTri]
      #5270893 - 06/14/12 09:53 AM

If you have never seen a glob before M13 in Hercules should be the one you start with. It is the biggest that is easily seen in the Northern Hemisphere.

What scope are you using? This will have a great impact on what the object will look like even under LP skies. With a small scope it will look like a fuzzy ball and quite a bit bigger than M57, though not as bright because it is bigger yet gives off about the same light, so that light is spread out over a larger area. M56 is right in between Alberio and M57, maybe a little to the right. Keep trying and you will get it.

In addition, with globs and planetary nebula don't be afraid to bump up the mag quite a bit. These targets can really benefit from high mag.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: craytab]
      #5270908 - 06/14/12 10:05 AM

Quote:

If you have never seen a glob before M13 in Hercules should be the one you start with. It is the biggest that is easily seen in the Northern Hemisphere.




Very good suggestion; and M13 is one of my all time favorites to view!


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BuffaloTri
member


Reged: 04/23/12

Re: Help with M56 new [Re: craytab]
      #5270937 - 06/14/12 10:24 AM

How could I forget to mention the telescope?! I have a mak127, and I was using a 32mm EP (48x) and my 40mm finder. It sounds like I'm looking for something larger but dimmer than M57.

M13 is a tricky one for me because of the LP. There are not many visible stars between Spica and Arcturus. I thought M56 would be a better target because it is so easy to hop through Lyra. I'll have to try M13 and M56 again.

Thanks for the replies everyone!


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Tony Flanders
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: BuffaloTri]
      #5270940 - 06/14/12 10:27 AM

M56 is one of the tougher Messier globulars to see, especially under light-polluted skies. I definitely recommend star-hopping from Gamma Lyrae instead of just panning from there to Albireo and hoping that you stumble upon M56.

M56 is much bigger than M57. Although it's actually brighter than M57, it appears considerably fainter because its light is spread out over a bigger area. I would describe M57 as a fuzzy star and M56 as a big gray ball rather than the other way around. See my Urban and Suburban Messier Guide for more information.


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C_Moon
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 10/23/09

Loc: Virginia
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: BuffaloTri]
      #5270961 - 06/14/12 10:36 AM

M56 will be seriously washed out with heavy LP. As a beginner, I would have had a hard time seeing it in conditions like that. Also, if low in the sky, it will be tougher. M13 is not nearly as affected by LP as M56 would be.

I agree to start with M13, but you also may consider M5, a show piece in its own right. I wouldn't call M56 a showpiece, but it is quite beautiful and its appearance always gives me the sense of its remoteness.


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blb
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/25/05

Loc: Piedmont NC
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5270973 - 06/14/12 10:39 AM Attachment (16 downloads)

BuffaloTri,
You may find it easier to locate with binoculars or your finderscope the first time. I can usualy see it, when high in the sky, from my light polluted sky at home with my 10x50 binoculars. Like said before, it is almost half way from Albireo to gamma Lyra, and a little south of that line. There is a star just north of the cluster which makes identification in your finder or binoculars easy. You will probably need at least an 8" telescope at a magnification of over 100x's to see any stars. As said before, it will appear as a circular gray spot of smoke on the sky at lower magnification. Here is a DSS image of the cluster that showes the star just to the north. The photo is 60'x60' in size and the cluster is only approximately 5' in diameter. Do not give up, sometimes they are hard to find the first time but I am sure that you will find it if you keep trying.


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blb
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/25/05

Loc: Piedmont NC
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: blb]
      #5270986 - 06/14/12 10:48 AM

Quote:

...M13 is a tricky one for me because of the LP. There are not many visible stars between Spica and Arcturus.




Here again binoculars will help. M13 is almost half way between Vega and Arcturus (not Spica and Arcturus), in the western side of the four center stars known as the keystone. If you do not have a pair of binoculars, you should probably get a pair. They can help you find objects and get familiar with where it is located so it is easier to find with your telescope.


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: BuffaloTri]
      #5271049 - 06/14/12 11:17 AM

Hi.

What scope were you using?

M56 is a fairly dim, nondescript globular. Depending on aperture, magnification and your own expectations as to how it should look, you may have had it in the field and overlooked it. Under light polluted skies, especially at lower magnification with smaller aperture, it will be very subtle compared to M57, for example.

Regards,

Jim


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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5271078 - 06/14/12 11:29 AM

He replied above:

Quote:

I have a mak127, and I was using a 32mm EP (48x) and my 40mm finder.




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FirstSight
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: craytab]
      #5271132 - 06/14/12 11:52 AM

I too frequently view M56 from a light-polluted suburban location where on less transparent nights, Lyra's signature parallelogram of four stars SE of Vega are obscured. It's one of my favorite summer objects in both my scopes (four-inch refractor, 12-inch reflector). HERE'S SOME ESSENTIAL INFORMATION FOR FINDING M56 BEYOND WHAT A STAR CHART OR ASTROPHOTO WILL TELL YOU:

1) APPEARANCE: M56 appears a small misty haze of light not distinctly brighter than the dense Milky Way starfield surrounding it, unlike brighter globular clusters which visually jump out much more readily through the eyepiece. Though it is at a similar distance from us (apx 30,000 light years) as globular cluster M3, M3 is far brighter-appearing and far more easily resolvable into distinct individual stars with 8" or more aperture. That's because the location of M56 forces us to view it much more closely parallel from us to the plane of the Milky Way, such that lots of intervening gas and dust obscures and dims our view of it. NEVERTHELESS, to my viewing tastes the view of the small, faint, but rich mist of M56 embedded within the dense surrounding Milky Way starfield is one of the most subtly beautiful sights in the entire summer sky, well worth the effort in finding it. I note that craytab above mentioned M13 in Hercules (the easiest, brightest globular cluster to find)...I would suggest you also find and visit the other bright globular cluster in Hercules, M92, which is a bit closer and a bit more intrinsically brighter than M56, but roughly similar-enough to give you a sense of how much the view of M56 is impacted by being located much closer to the galactic plane from our P.O.V. than is M92.

2) STARHOPPING (beyond what the finder chart by itself will inform you): It's obvious from any decent star chart that M56 is located almost directly on a line just slightly over halfway between Sulafat (Southeastern-most star in Lyra's distinctive parallelogram of four stars southeast of Vega) and Alberio (just slightly closer to Alberio along this line). Wouldn't that be nice if all four were naked-eye visible? But of course they aren't from your location, but you report you nevertheless CAN find M57. Well, M57 is halfway between Sulafat and Sheliak (the two stars in Lyra's parallelogram furthest away from Vega), and fortunately, Sheliak, Sulafat, and Alberio lie almost directly along a straight line relative to one another. Globular Cluster M56 is about 2/3 of the way along a line from M57 to Alberio (closer to Alberio).

3) You're looking for a FAINT, SUBTLE SMALL PATCH OF MIST which (depending on your aperture) will be likely be visible on nights of better transparency, despite the light pollution, and likely won't be visible on nights of poorer transparency. FIND IT FIRST ON ONE OF YOUR BETTER NIGHTS, and it will become progressively easier to find on your mediocre and more marginal nights. YOUR OPTIMAL CHOICE OF EYEPIECE will be a balancing act between as wide a field as possible (lower power is better) vs a small enough exit pupil to give you a dark enough background/enough contrast to make M56 visible against the rich surrounding starfield (middle to higher power is better). YMMV depending on what's available to you and the aperture of your telescope, but for my NP-101 generally 10mm or 13mm works best and for my 12" 17mm or 21mm works best (I confess that since I have a quiver of Ethos eyepieces, I have a considerable advantage), but it's quite doable in more humble 50 deg AFOV plossls, though it may require a bit more work for success).

WELL WORTH THE EFFORT IMHO (I just viewed it again last night in my NP-101). BTW: if you can at least faintly see Sulafat in Lyra, your probability of success is much greater than if you can't.

Edited by FirstSight (06/14/12 12:10 PM)


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FirstSight
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: blb]
      #5271141 - 06/14/12 12:00 PM

Quote:

BuffaloTri,
You may find it easier to locate with binoculars




Very nice picture of M56, except visually through his Mak 127 it won't appear anywhere remotely that bright or distinct relative to the surrounding starfield. I also very much doubt it will be visible in binoculars from his location if the parallelogram of stars below Vega are difficult to impossible to see from his location. M56 is a subtle, though quite beautiful sight once found, and will simply take patience and effort to geometrically guestimate where it is, hunt around, re-geo-gueestimate, try, try again etc. until he succeeds, trying different eyepieces to see which one gives the best contrast under the local conditions.

It might also help if there is another local astronomer with a richer-field (shorter focal-ratio) scope who'll share and help find it the first time. M56 is one of those objects that becomes significantly easier to find once you've seen it and know what to look for, cause it's kind of subtle.


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starbux
sage
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Reged: 02/08/06

Loc: Sunnyvale, CA
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: BuffaloTri]
      #5271306 - 06/14/12 01:45 PM

Once you've found it, don't expect to resolve any individual stars in light polluted skies with anything less than an 8", which if I push the power past 100x or so just begins to show stars with averted vision.

But M13 should show resolvable stars for your scope with sufficient magnification.


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blb
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/25/05

Loc: Piedmont NC
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: starbux]
      #5271439 - 06/14/12 03:10 PM

Quote:

...I also very much doubt it will be visible in binoculars from his location if the parallelogram of stars below Vega are difficult to impossible to see from his location.




Chris M.,
I also live in a white zone in town with terible light pollution. You are correct in that he may not be able to see M56 on a bad night but it is visible in my 10x50 binoculars when near the zenuth on an average night. My point was that using binoculars you will be getting familiar with the star paterns and maybe see the cluster too, which will make it much easier to hop to. Also the 8th+/- magnitude star is visible in your binoculars too and is a good way to locate this cluster. M56 is the very faint smudge to the south of the star. I have been surprised bo how much I can actualy see in town with my binoculars, in fact I use them more in town than I do my telescopes.


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BuffaloTri
member


Reged: 04/23/12

Re: Help with M56 [Re: blb]
      #5271478 - 06/14/12 03:49 PM

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I'll definitely try finding M56 again, but this time I'll look for something less obvious than M57. It also sounds like M13 and M92 may be better places to start.

I don't have access to binoculars, an RFT, or a larger telescope. A while ago I made a silly decision that I would not buy anymore astronomy gear until I've found 1/3 of the Messier objects.


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craytab
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/10/11

Loc: Bethlehem, PA
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: BuffaloTri]
      #5271524 - 06/14/12 04:11 PM

Quote:

A while ago I made a silly decision that I would not buy anymore astronomy gear until I've found 1/3 of the Messier objects




That is actually a good thing! Use what you have! I think you should be able to get that number even from the worst skies. They may not look like much but I think you will see them.


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Tony Flanders
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: BuffaloTri]
      #5271592 - 06/14/12 04:48 PM

Quote:

A while ago I made a silly decision that I would not buy anymore astronomy gear until I've found 1/3 of the Messier objects.




Sounds reasonable to me. When I bought my first "real" telescope, I decided not to buy another until I had observed all the Messier objects. That was a 70-mm refractor, so I had a much tougher job ahead of me than you do.

It took me almost 8 months, after which I bought my 7-inch Dob.

I try to observe all the Messier objects with all of my instruments, though in some cases (like my 6x15 monocular) I don't expect to get very far.


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magic612
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Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5271677 - 06/14/12 05:49 PM

BuffaloTri, might I suggest a different globular cluster closer to a brighter star to start? M3 is about 12 degrees from Acturus, or two finderscope fields of view, approximately. Rather than trying to bump your way around in the light pollution much hoping you find the dimmer stars near M13 (22 degrees from Vega; 36 degrees from Arcturus), this globular should make it easier to find one so you know what you're looking for with successive ones. It's about the same size as M13, and only a hair dimmer.

I made a video showing step-by-step how to find this globular, though it will help a lot if you can spot a 2.8 magnitude star (Cor Caroli). But given how high overhead that is presently in the evening, plus that it is brighter than the parallelogram stars of Lyra, you should have a good shot. Plus, I can see 3rd magnitude stars near downtown Chicago overhead, so if you look carefully, I think you can do it too.


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GeneT
Ely Kid
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Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: Help with M56 new [Re: BuffaloTri]
      #5271704 - 06/14/12 06:13 PM

Hopefully you can find a dark sky site not too far from your home. Dark skies will reveal you things you never thought possible to view.

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