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KennyJ

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True ( SHARP ) field of view
      #530186 - 07/24/05 04:33 PM

The Nikon 18 x 70 v Fujinon 16 x 70 thread attracted a comment from the indefatigable Prof. EdZ. indicating that the " edge sharpness " of his Fujinon FMT SX 16 x 70 is NOT what it appears to have been " cracked up to be " by some other reviewers and commentators and certainly not to the extent as boasted in some advertisements I've seen , which give the impression the edge is as sharp as the centre !

I have no reason whatosever to challenge Ed about his comments ( in fact I would put money on him being correct )
and between the lines , it seems that the image through his Fujinon 16 x 70 starts to degrade at some point between 65 and 70 % of the radius.

With a 4 degree TFOV , this translates to somewhere between 2.7 and 2.8 degrees as being what can safely be regarded as being " sharp " .

It occurs to me that a very convenient test for this span of sky is the belt of Orion , the three stars Alnitak Alnilam and Mintaka just happening to measure between 2.7 and 2.8 degrees " from edge to edge ".

I realise Orion is out of season for " northerners " but I know very well that when looking through my Helios 15 x 70 , which also has " 4 degrees " on the data plate , if I try to line up these three stars in the same field of view , not only have I to really CRUSH my eyes right into the eyepieces ( eye relief being only 8mm ) but even when I do ( which I cannot when wearing glasses ) I can only JUST get all of these three stars into the field of view , with a whisker of sky either side ( indicating a TRUE F.O.V closer to 3 degrees than 4 degrees ) BUT -- surprise surprise -- the flanking stars , Alnitak and Mintaka can NO WAY be brought to anything like " sharp focus " at the same time ( and certainly not without my glasses ! )

The actual TRUE ( SHARP ) field of view with my particular Helios 15 x 70 is more like 2 degrees than 4 degrees.

The more I think about this , the more relevant I'm beginning to think such a statistic really is , yet apart from the use of it by occasional poster Barry Simon ,and the occasional mention of it by EdZ. , I cannot recall any other members using such terminology.

So , my question is :

" is TRUE SHARP field of view " a specification which might be more useful to the astro -bino enthusiast than simply TFOV ?

All comments welcome -- of course !

Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: KennyJ]
      #530199 - 07/24/05 04:40 PM

Hi Kenny,

Quote:

" is TRUE SHARP field of view " a specification which might be more useful to the astro -bino enthusiast than simply TFOV ?




It is to those observers who value sharpness across the entire filed of view more than a wider but less sharp field. There are many people in the later camp.

I would however give a bit more credit to the Fujinons than say out to 60%.

While most binoculars start to degrade at about 60% out and some even at 50%, the Fujinons hold on pretty well out to about 70-80%. I mentioned a few that do even better at 80% and a number of binocs that can equal the Fujinon at 70%. These are all some of the sharpest across the field binoculars I've used.

The edge of field sharpness in a binocular is mostly dependant on the eyepieces used. Similar to a telescope, you can test out various eyepieces and find some work better than others. For instance my Meade 18mm SWA is a very good 63° wide filed eyepiece that does very well in my f/11 SCT. But it's performance is pitiful in my f/5 Newt.

I've recorded sharpness curves for 8 different eyepieces in the BT100. The 12.5mm UO ortho gave excellent sharpness across the field, but that is only about a 44° Afov eyepiece.

The two most noteworthy eyepieces I've used in the BT100 are the TV 20mm plossl and the TV 14mm Radian. With the 14mm Radian I was able to cleanly observe the separation in a 5.1 arcsecond double star instantly after it drifted into the field of view. That's 226 arcseconds apparent resolution at the extreme edge. No other variable eyepiece or fixed power binocular I've used to date has equalled that performance.

At 80% out from center, the Fujinon 16x70 has 350 arcseconds apparent resolution. Also at 80% out, the BT100 with a 20mm TV plossl has achieved 186 arcseconds apparent resolution.

But just as there are a few combinations that can beat the Fujinon at the edges, there are many more that cannot equal the Fujinon. A Nikon AE can't see at 60% out what the Fujinon can see at 80% out. The Celestron Skymaster 25x100 and the Oberwerk 22x100 can only see at 60%-65% what the Fujinon can see at 80%. By 70-75% out the Celestron Skymaster 25x100 has degraded to what the Fujinon 16x70 can see at the very edge.

In my first 4-way binocular review I began referring to this as the usable field of view. I used the terms finding limit, wide detailed viewing limit and best detailed viewing limit. Many binoculars end up with only 60-70% of the field of view usable as best detailed viewing limit.

edz

edz



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Edited by EdZ (07/24/05 05:23 PM)


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Mark9473
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: KennyJ]
      #530217 - 07/24/05 04:51 PM

Kenny,
super question, to which I don't have any answers only a further question:

What is truly sharp?

Of my small collection of binoculars (see below), my Leica 8x20 are by far the sharpest. Stars in the center of view are really pinpoint sharp. Towards the edges it deteriorates mainly because of field curvature. The tricky thing: if I refocus on a star 2/3rds out towards the edge, I get a view which is sharp for over 90% of the field - sharp by the standards of my other binoculars, just not Leica sharp.

Therefore my question: are we penalizing the better binoculars because a slight deterioration towards the edges is noticed sooner than in a lesser sibling?

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici


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milt
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: KennyJ]
      #530276 - 07/24/05 05:20 PM

Quote:

" is TRUE SHARP field of view " a specification which might be more useful to the astro -bino enthusiast than simply TFOV ?




Hi Kenny,

The answer is YES, but how would we do it? As others have already pointed out it is very subjective. I believe it is age dependant as well. Since field curvature is often the culprit, younger observers will perceive sharper stars at the edge due to the increased ability of their eyes to refocus compared to us old codgers.

Your suggestion to evaluate True Sharp Field of View TSFOV reflects an important point that was made in response to my Highlander review. When we look through a binocular and judge it as being sharp to X% of radius, we are actually evaluating ASFOV - what we see relative to the field stops of the eyepieces. This tends to penalize wide AFOV binoculars like the Nikon 18x70 and Kowa 32x82 because they are showing us stars that would have been off field in most other bino's.

It doesn't seem fair to rate a 50° AFOV binocular that is sharp to the edges higher than a 70° AFOV binocular that is only sharp to 70% radius, even though both show the same true field size as sharp.

Cheers,
Milt


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Mark9473
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: EdZ]
      #530279 - 07/24/05 05:22 PM

Quote:

At 80% out from center, the Fujinon 16x70 has 350 arcseconds apparent resolution. Also at 80% out, the BT100 with a 20mm TV plossl has achieved 186 arcseconds apparent resolution.

edz




Professor,
could you rescale that onto an AFOV scale? It would be interesting (to say the least) to have a list of your measurements on an AFOV scale, since this would directly translate into the widest apparent sharp field when viewing.

Thanks,

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici


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EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: Mark9473]
      #530293 - 07/24/05 05:39 PM

That information is available in nearly every one of the binocular reviews I have written.

I believe it is more importantly compared on the Tfov, not the Afov.

The Fujinon is a 4.0° Tfov binocular.
the BT100 with a 20mm plossl (31x) is only 1.67°
the BT100 with a 26mm plossl (24x) is 2.2°
the Celestron 25x100 is 2.4°
The Oberwerk 22x100 is 2.7°
the Oberwerk 25x100 is 2.3°


The BT100 will never make it to the widest field group. The "widest" sharpest true fields of view I've ever looked thru belong to the Nikon SE 12x50, the Fujinon 16x70, the Oberwerk Mariner 10x60 and the Pentax PCF WP 10x50, not necessarily in that order.

This excludes consideration of 7x and 8x binoculars which could easily exceed that field with only half the lens being real sharp. But magnification would be so low, you wouldn't see what can be seen in these others.

edz

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KennyJ

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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: Mark9473]
      #530309 - 07/24/05 05:49 PM

Mark ,

I suspect YOUR question is every bit as " super " as mine !

Astronomy is a MINOR binocular use of mine , and for all other uses , " edge of field quality " is a relatively minor consideration for me personally.

It is only since I started using my latest acquisition , the Captain's Helmsman IF 7 x 50 for a little "casual night sky observing " that my attention has been drawn to the satisfaction of less edge distortion.

Whether or not my enthusiastic praise for this model is premature I still don't know -- but I've been told it is NOT a model with a PARTICULARLY FLAT field.

My other two most used hand - held binos , Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT and Swift 10 x 50 Kestrel , very satisfying to use for daytime observations of many kinds , both ( particularly the Swift ) suffer from the penalties of their extra - wide true fields of view , when they are applied to astronomy.

My wife's Swarovski 8 x 20 is , like your Leica , almost surprisingly "pin -point " sharp in the centre , but I think the diminuitive exit -pupil may have much to do with that.

This is easily outweighed however , by it's lack of objective size , and for me , intolerably small eyecups and over -fiddly focussing system.

What is TRULY sharp ?

Another great , and probably subjective question !

It would help greatly if all binocular users could be as honest and true to themselves as possible , in order to help others , and each other.

I THINK most people who spend any great deal of time out there looking at the night sky through binoculars are quite honest and trustworthy by nature.

I THINK most of them can probably discern the difference between sharpness on -axis and lack of it at the outer edges.

I THINK most of them COULD estimate a reasonably accurate percentage point at which the image breaks down , and by roughly what degree.

There is also , POSSIBLY , a natural , almost sub -conscious tendency for people to " defend " what they have previous purchased or previously stated , which if true , is unfortunate.

What not everyone CAN do is either set or appreciate any kind of " universal yardstick " without having access to every instrument available.

For example , I have never looked through a Takahashi , Fujinon or Kowa Highlander binocular or a Takahashi , Astrophysics APO refractor.

How do I KNOW how SHARP the images are through these ?

The best I can do is read what some reviewers have to say about instruments which I HAVE looked through , then read about what those same reviewers have to say about when comparing those to those I haven't , and try to come to some sort of conclusion.

But saying all this , if for example , the world's most expensive binocular became somehow miscollimated , then the images through it are not going to be as sharp as those through a low -end model which IS well collimated.

Perhaps I ought not to have asked this question in the first place ! :-)

Regards , Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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Mark9473
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: EdZ]
      #530326 - 07/24/05 06:00 PM

Professor,
on the loss of sharpness towards the edge of view, you said:

Quote:

I believe it is more importantly compared on the Tfov, not the Afov.




Even though I'm not a kid, I'd like to refer to your signature and ask you to teach me why that would be so?

AFOV being magnification-independent, it seems to me to be the only way to compare binoculars with different magnification. Am I wrong on this?

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici


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Mark9473
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: KennyJ]
      #530341 - 07/24/05 06:09 PM

Quote:

I have never looked through a Takahashi , Fujinon or Kowa Highlander binocular

How do I KNOW how SHARP the images are through these ?





Kenny, I believe that Professor EdZ's measurements are there for us to get an objective report on sharpness rather than a subjective impression. Too bad he hasn't gotten around to testing some binoculars that would interest me...

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici


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btschumy
Think Astronomy
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: milt]
      #532073 - 07/26/05 12:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

" is TRUE SHARP field of view " a specification which might be more useful to the astro -bino enthusiast than simply TFOV ?




Hi Kenny,

The answer is YES, but how would we do it? As others have already pointed out it is very subjective. I believe it is age dependant as well. Since field curvature is often the culprit, younger observers will perceive sharper stars at the edge due to the increased ability of their eyes to refocus compared to us old codgers.




Milt,

I'm very glad you made this point. I think we have to take any statement about edge sharpness with a grain of salt. Many people rate the same model differently. Some say it is "sharp to the edge" while others say the edge is "soft". I suspect part of the difference may be age and the ability to accomodate for field curvature.

There are multiple reasons why a binoc may not be sharp at the edge. Field curvature is not as big a detriment to young observers as is astigmatism or other abberations. This is why I think it is important to try and determine the reason for the soft edges when makeing that claim.

--------------------
Bill Tschumy
Where is M13? Freeware -- Add a new dimension to your observing.


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KennyJ

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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: btschumy]
      #532159 - 07/26/05 02:33 AM

Hi Bill / Milt et al ,

I suppose we could take SOME of the "objectivity" out of this analysis by using a standard reference resoultion chart of some kind -- not necessarily any in current or past production.

I like the suggestion of using tape measures , or even giant wooden rules attached to a wall at far greater distance , to enable the observer to ascertain not only distortions ( as in if you can't read it it's distorted )but also magnification and TRUE field of view.

Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: KennyJ]
      #532354 - 07/26/05 09:49 AM

I've been using the measure of resolution of double stars at accurately measured points along the axis. Each separation of a pair gives me a reading of the limit of resolution at that point on the axis. Positioning is determined by placing some other field star at exactly the edge of the field stop. Measurements are taken from very large scale atlases to determine the position of the test double, by using the placement of the field star at the field edge to measure from.

Collecting the data is not so simple as it may seem. For any given binocular 4, 5 or 6 different doubles must be viewed at various points along the axis to determine the position at which it can still be seen clearly, where it can be detected and finally where it can no longer be detected as double. So for any given binocular there might be 10 or 20 or more readings.

Keep in mind it is not the separation of the double alone that makes the reading, it is the separation times the magnification, or the apparent separation. For instance lets say a 10x60 binocular can clearly see a 36" double at 85% out from center. That's 360 arcseconds apparent at 85% out. In order for a 12x binocular to equal that performance, it needs to clearly see a 30" double at the same position and a 16x binocular needs to resolve a 22.5" double. A 20x binocular would need to see an 18" double.

I believe this method takes out all subjectiveness from reporting these values and gives a fairly accurate comparison of one binocular to another. Over time I have built a file with hundreds of readings. This is how I compare sharpness across the field from one binocular to another.


John asked, "Why refer to Tfov rather than Afov?"

Well personally, I don't give much attention to what the Afov of a binocular is. With the exception of interchangeable ep models, no binocular is magnification independant. In the field, the most important thing to me is the Tfov. So I take all my measurements in reference to the Tfov. However, if you prefer to read sharpness in reference to Afov, this is a very simple matter of flipping the calculation to get the value you want.

A number of wide field binoculars gain nothing by employing wide field eyepieces. The Nikon Action Extreme line uses epieces with Afov 62-64°. However the field of view at 60% out falls off and by 70% out gets rather poor. By 75% out it is unusable. The Burgess LW 20x80 uses Afov = 74° eyepieces, one of the widest I know of, but not to very good advantage since this binocular looses sharp image beyond 60% out.

I suppose it may be true that most narrow Afov binoculars display better sharpness to the outer edges, for example the various Pentax models with Afov ranging from 45° to 50° have edge sharpnees nearly unrivaled. The Oberwerk Mariner 10x60 has Afov= 51° and at 85% out it beats the Fujinon and Nikon SE. But that is not always the case.

The Oberwerk 8x56 has Afov= 48°, as narrow as the Pentax, but image sharpness while still good at 65% out, falls off in the outer 20-30%. Orion Vista 8x42 and Orion Giant 16x80 have 52° and 53° Afov and both are rather poor in the outer 30%-40% of the field. Orion Minigiant 15x63 has Afov 57°, but is poor in the outer 20% of field. Celestron Skymaster 25x100 has a 60° Afov and is poor at 60% out and extremely poor at 80% out.

Fujinon 16x70 have a 65° Afov, but only degrade in the outer 20%. Likewise Oberwerk 15x70 have Afov = 64° and degrade only across the out 30%. Nikon SE 12x50 has Afov =61° and has far sharper images at the edge than the Fujinon.


edz

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Henry Link
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: EdZ]
      #532380 - 07/26/05 10:15 AM

It seems to me that for those who are interested in sharpness referenced to Afov the angular distance from the center is more important than the distance from the edge. A descriptive system that uses degrees of apparent field off-axis rather than percentage of apparent field would be consistant for all apparent fields. 20 degrees off axis is the same distance from the center in every binocular.

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Mark9473
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: EdZ]
      #532423 - 07/26/05 11:00 AM

Quote:

Collecting the data is not so simple as it may seem.



To me it has always seemed a very laborious and complicated task that few people could accurately perform. So if you're now saying it's even more difficult than we are imagining, I can only say: hatts off to you!

Quote:

John asked, "Why refer to Tfov rather than Afov?"



No it was me.

Quote:

Fujinon 16x70 have a 65° Afov, but only degrade in the outer 20%. Likewise Oberwerk 15x70 have Afov = 64° and degrade only across the out 30%. Nikon SE 12x50 has Afov =61° and has far sharper images at the edge than the Fujinon.



So here I would summarize that the Fujinon 16x70 is sharp over 52° AFOV and the Oberwerk 15x70 over 45°. See how easy it now is to compare their performance with that of the Nikon 12x50 SE?

And I thank Henry for supporting my plea for an AFOV reference scale.

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici


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EdZModerator
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: Henry Link]
      #532446 - 07/26/05 11:19 AM

Quote:

It seems to me that for those who are interested in sharpness referenced to Afov the angular distance from the center is more important than the distance from the edge. A descriptive system that uses degrees of apparent field off-axis rather than percentage of apparent field would be consistant for all apparent fields. 20 degrees off axis is the same distance from the center in every binocular.




To me this would be very confusing. I like to look at things in terms of what is given. Afov is never given, although easily determined. Tfov is always given.

example.
Burgess LW 20x80 has Afov=74°.
Assuming 70% usable field, I would report 52° Afov usable

Oberwerk Mariner 10x60 has Afov=51°.
Usable at 85% out, I would report 44° Afov usable.

Just considering Afov, one might be confused to think the Burgess is much better. However the Burgess has 70% of a 3.7° field and the Oberwerk Mariner has 85% of a 5.1° field. The Mariner is by far the better performer.

The common user, and for that matter even many of the educated users, know what is meant by the field of view. In most cases it's printed on the binocular. They can also relate to 50%, 75% and 80%... Many of these same people need to think about the term Afov and try to figure out how to relate it to what they already know.

Also, the measurements are taken by percent across the true field. Just doesn't make sense to me to take something that simple and convert it to something more complex, when in use, at least for me, it would need to be converted back to it's simple form.

I don't think of these values in terms of how much Afov is usable. But then again, I see multiplication problems as addition problems. It's not that one is wrong and the other right, it's just how the brain likes to see sets of numbers.

edz

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EdZModerator
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: Mark9473]
      #532454 - 07/26/05 11:24 AM

Quote:

So here I would summarize that the Fujinon 16x70 is sharp over 52° AFOV and the Oberwerk 15x70 over 45°. See how easy it now is to compare their performance with that of the Nikon 12x50 SE?




I provided an example in my previous post as to why I think this would be a misleading way to report the measure. I think it makes the comparison of binoculars more confusing.

edz

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Mark9473
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: EdZ]
      #532499 - 07/26/05 11:54 AM

Quote:

Burgess LW 20x80 has Afov=74°.
Assuming 70% usable field, I would report 52° Afov usable

Oberwerk Mariner 10x60 has Afov=51°.
Usable at 85% out, I would report 44° Afov usable.

Just considering Afov, one might be confused to think the Burgess is much better.



As far the size of the sharp field is concerned, to me clearly the Burgess is the winner here.

Quote:

However the Burgess has 70% of a 3.7° field and the Oberwerk Mariner has 85% of a 5.1° field.



yes but they also have significantly different magnifications. If widest sharp true field is what matters to you, why are you not observing with a 7x42 rather than your BT100?

Quote:

The common user, and for that matter even many of the educated users, know what is meant by the field of view. In most cases it's printed on the binocular. They can also relate to 50%, 75% and 80%...



agreed, but I personally find it misleading to say that a 70° AFOV binocular which is sharp over 75% of its field, is necessarily inferior to another binocular with a 45° AFOV sharp over 95% of its field.

Quote:

Also, the measurements are taken by percent across the true field. Just doesn't make sense to me to take something that simple and convert it to something more complex



well, the nice thing about percentages is that they apply equally to TFOV and AFOV.

Quote:

But then again, I see multiplication problems as addition problems. It's not that one is wrong and the other right, it's just how the brain likes to see sets of numbers.

edz




With this, as far as I'm concerned, I think we've exhausted the subject... I think we can agree to disagree and move on.

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
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EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: Mark9473]
      #532532 - 07/26/05 12:25 PM

Quote:

yes but they also have significantly different magnifications. If widest sharp true field is what matters to you, why are you not observing with a 7x42 rather than your BT100?




I pointed out earlier that the BT100 would never make it into the widest sharp true field category, not due to sharpness issues but total field. With so many different aspects of binoculars to affect the view, it is not widest true sharp field that always holds the most importance, hence the BT100 for some targets becomes the appropriate choice. Allowing a 5 arcsecond double to drift right out the edge of the field stop and still appear clearly separated is telescopic sharpness performance across 100% of the field that is unrivaled in any other binocular I've looked thru.

As to what does hold the most importance, there are too many circumstances to pin just one. It can be different for every view.

edz

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Anonymous
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: EdZ]
      #532556 - 07/26/05 12:49 PM

Same for me. At times I will prefer the deluxe II over the BT100 for one reason, relatively wide FOV. The field sharpness starts to wane at about 70% (unlike the BT100), but that's ok at times...and it all depends on what I am looking at.

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KennyJ

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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: ]
      #532908 - 07/26/05 05:43 PM

Mark is clearly one very sharp and most welcome addition to this community.

However , on THIS particular topic , I'm with Ed.

One problem with AFOVs as far as I'm concerned is that SOME wide -field eyepieces can have an AFOV which can simply not be fully accomodated for by prisms or field stops.

I prefer to know the following :

1. The ACTUAL TRUE FIELD OF VIEW.

2. The actual " sharpish " / " perfectly useable " portion of that true field of view expressed as a percentage of the full actual true field of view.

There is probably no better reason for this than the fact that I can " visualise " these statistics / specifications without even looking at them for myself.

That is to say , I have clearer , more instant " mental pictures " of 2 degrees , 4 degrees , 6 degrees , 8 degrees of SKY or terrestrial visage than I have of , for example , a 53 degree or 72 degree or 84 degree APPARANT field with this or that magnification , providing the aforementioned potential limiting factors are non -contributory in the case of the latter.

I must add that I find expressions of fields of view in units of yards per 1000 feet or metres per 1000 metres to be quite irritating , apart from such making it easy to "transpose" to feet and inches per yard when making up one's own " tape measure " type of testing rig.

Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





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Anonymous
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: KennyJ]
      #532938 - 07/26/05 06:06 PM

Quote:

I prefer to know the following :

1. The ACTUAL TRUE FIELD OF VIEW.

2. The actual " sharpish " / " perfectly useable " portion of that true field of view expressed as a percentage of the full actual true field of view.

There is probably no better reason for this than the fact that I can " visualise " these statistics / specifications without even looking at them for myself.






I agree totally with your thinking on this, Kenny !

As others here undoubtedly know, I've been looking for a wide-field bino as a day and night "general use" glass since joining up with the forum here. I made mention of my appreciation for what was recommended and ultimately found in the Nikon 8x30 E2 on my quest this afternoon in another thread on that particular model. I only wish I had had the E2 in hand at the same time I had the Miayuchi "Binon" in hand, because of the feeling of the vast superiority of view in the E2. Granted the Binon was stretching the TFOV at bit, but equally stopped, I'm still of the belief that the E2 would have been the clear winner in a comparison of the two.

I also can't help but wonder if the use of such terms and specs as "apparent" field of view, "twilight factor", and other such ratings are not just more snake oil used to confuse the masses of less knowledgable in trying to purchase a good glass.

On the other hand, maybe it's just used to keep others of us busy while looking for our next bino.......

Bryant


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Anonymous
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: KennyJ]
      #533094 - 07/26/05 08:25 PM

Quote:

I must add that I find expressions of fields of view in units of yards per 1000 feet or metres per 1000 metres to be quite irritating.



Ditto for me.


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Pinewood
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: ]
      #533113 - 07/26/05 08:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I must add that I find expressions of fields of view in units of yards per 1000 feet or metres per 1000 metres to be quite irritating.



Ditto for me.




Since we all have computers, it is not difficult to convert FEET per thousand YARDS, or meters per thousand meters into degrees. Use the scientific view of the computer's calculator, set for degrees. Divide the field by distance in the SAME UNITS, converting yards to feet, when necessary. Then use inverse function and tan on PC's or second function and tan to the -1 on Macs. This should give you degrees. The annoyance is easily overcome. Of course, both field of view in linear displacement and in angle have value but degrees are more useful.
I learned how to do this because not all sources use degrees and because I could not find a trignometry table, which is what I used, the last time I had to do such a calculation.

By the way a thousand yards is half a nautical mile [UK]

Clear skies,
Arthur


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Anonymous
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: Pinewood]
      #533133 - 07/26/05 09:05 PM

Easier yet, just divide the feet per hundred yards (seems to be the standard) by 52.5 to get the TFOV.

Ex: 462 feet @ 1000 yards = 462/52.5 = 8.8 degrees TFOV.

Simple as that.

Bryant


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Pinewood
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Re: True ( SHARP ) field of view new [Re: ]
      #533142 - 07/26/05 09:10 PM

Bryant,

I work in both metric and medieval systems. It is easier for me to remember the proper methodology than to remember constants for each system. However, if it works use it!

Clear skies,
Arthur