Sasa
sage
Reged: 11/03/10
Loc: Ricany, Czech Republic
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Short evening with doubles
#5390135 - 08/27/12 05:27 PM
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There was a semi-clear night today after a week of clouds. Moon was quite low, seeing was not good and on top of it there was slight haze which was affecting contrast. I had not too much of time and I took out my AS80/1200 for an 1 hour session. Since the Moon was far from beeing perfect I decided to try few difficult doubles.
I started with pi Aql. With 6mm ortho (200x), there was no problem with splitting the double. The two components were easily visible as two separate stars with little of concentration for most of the time. May be there was even some darkening between them. I estimated PA~95-100 deg.
Encouraged by the success I switched to mu Cyg. This was really beatuful sight at 200x. I wasn't prepared for it. Last year I was trying to split this double in the same scope but without success. Today it was textbook image. It looked like a snowman - two almost touching balls, one quite brighter (I estimated that the difference between the components is about 2 magnitudes). The image was quite stable and visible with concentration for most of the time.
Then I tried something which I thought is impossible for 80mm lens: 36 And. Here I had no luck, neither at 200x nor at 235x (XO 5.1). But still, on the way from delta And I discovered another beautiful double: 65 Psc. At 30x in my finder eyepiece (40mm Kellner), it looked like two equally bright almost touching needle tops. Very nice surprise.
Edited by Sasa (08/27/12 05:47 PM)
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azure1961p
Postmaster
   
Reged: 01/17/09
Loc: USA
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Sasa]
#5390639 - 08/27/12 11:29 PM
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Nice post.
Be sure to list magnitude AND seperations for all doubles. The right ascencion and declination isnt so needed as everyone can pull that up somewhere, but for the immediacey of appreciating your experience, list at least the magnitudes and seperations.
I enjoyed your telling.
Pete
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Inge
member
Reged: 08/17/12
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: azure1961p]
#5390833 - 08/28/12 03:08 AM
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Sasa,
I like your description of Mu Cygni. This double seems to be somehow neglected, but is a favourite of mine.
I find that a small amount of haze or some thin clouds do not harm double star observation. In fact I have made some of my best observations with thin clouds present. The reason may be that I live on an island on the Atlantic coast. Winds from the east will normally give clear skies, but seeing is often bad because of mountains interfering. Winds from the west often give rain, but on some occasions we have soft winds from the sea with just thin clouds, and then seeing conditions often allow splitting doubles of 0.5 - 0.6" separation.
Inge S
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Sasa
sage
Reged: 11/03/10
Loc: Ricany, Czech Republic
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: azure1961p]
#5390891 - 08/28/12 05:55 AM
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Pete, sorry for missing information. Here it is
pi Aql (6.3+6.9 2003: 1.4", PA106) mu Cyg (4.7+6.2 2004: 1.9", PA312) 36 And (6.1+6.5 2004: 1.0", PA314) 65 Psc (6.3+6.3 2004: 4.3", PA296)
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Sasa
sage
Reged: 11/03/10
Loc: Ricany, Czech Republic
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Inge]
#5390905 - 08/28/12 06:15 AM
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Inge, you are right. Mu Cygni is probably overshadowed by another difficult pair - delta Cygni. I like both. Delta Cygni is quite routine for me in 80mm refractors, a month ago I was trying to split it with my 63mm Zeiss and I think I was succesfull. Mostly, it was just brightening in the 1st diffractive ring but from time to time I saw starlike point at PA220-240. Later I found at home that the position was correct.
Concerning the closest doubles, my limit is about the same as yours. Two years ago I split eta Crb and xi Boo with Newton 250/1600. It was just rare night and normally I could not go that low with the 10" telescope. Recently I sold the scope - I have too many of them even now. I'm left just with refractors from 63-130mm, so 0.5" pairs are now out of my reach. Meanwhile I found that I like to chalange small refractors. It is easier to reach their limits than with larger reflectors, mostly due to seeing and thermalization. I like especially difficult doubles with large difference in brightness, like mu Cygni. I like the stillness of the image and their textbook appearance. For example, recently when I was testing new AS110, I could detect another tough double in Cygnus: lambda Cygni (4.7+6.3, 2010: 0.9", PA5). This was another snowman but in this case, the smaller ball was half burried into the big one.
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ziridava
member
Reged: 08/17/12
Loc: Arad,Romania,Eastern Europe
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Sasa]
#5391387 - 08/28/12 12:30 PM
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Sasa Thank you for your interesting report. My ''work horse'' is a 125mm Newtonian. Mu Cygni is old aquinyance to me,Pi Aql is a recent one,both are easy split. But 36 And never was my target ,thank you for the tip.
Your report is proving something I would like not to know :while in your 80mm Zeiss refractor Delta Cyg is routine,my reflector need really good seeing for a nice split of this difficult double star. I suppose the CO of 28% have something to do with this!
Looking forward for your future reports,Mircea
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Sasa
sage
Reged: 11/03/10
Loc: Ricany, Czech Republic
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: ziridava]
#5391761 - 08/28/12 03:41 PM
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Thanks Mircea. Well made 125mm f/7 Newton sounds like a nice tool for observing doubles. In past, I had 150mm f/5 Newton as my main observing tool. And I must say, I was never too much successful with doubles. I still remember how many sessions it took me to split pi Aql for the first time, quite often I could not split Izar (while I never missed this one in neither of my refractors), etc. It was partly due to my small experience. But another reason was my style of observing. I store my telescopes at home and I take them out just for relatively short sessions. Even such relatively small Newton is affected by thermalization (and this particular Newton had design flaws that were preventing it from quick cooldown).
I had more luck and was more satisfied with N250/1600 which had cooling fan and opened bottom. But even now, for quick sessions (less than one hour in winter) I prefer AS80/1200 instead of ED100 if it is deeply freezing outside. There were doubles (like gamma Cet 3.6+6.2, 2.3") that I could not split in ED100 but I could in AS80. I'm sure if I could left ED100 outside for another 20-30 minutes, it would handle nicely this pair as well.
All I'm trying to say with this is that may be it is not the central obstruction that limits you in splitting delta Cygni neither seeing. It could be also problem with thermalization effect. If you pay a little bit more attention to cooling down your telescope you could gain quite a lot in terms of image stability. My experience with N250 was that the limit is not usually seeing but the tube currents. It was nicely visible when I switched off and on the fan during observing the planets and stars. The image was more stable with the fan on, even after 1 hour of cooling.
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azure1961p
Postmaster
   
Reged: 01/17/09
Loc: USA
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Sasa]
#5392495 - 08/29/12 12:20 AM
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Sasa,
All good points, but there is also the ULTRAQUICK session. No more than five or ten minutes lest the air begins thermal changes and then all is dashed for an hour. I can pull off the five minute session successfuly with my 6" Schmidt Cass . Nothings as great as an equalized scope but if your truly quick you can temporarily cheat!
Albeit, a closed system is better at this than an open reflector. Pete
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ziridava
member
Reged: 08/17/12
Loc: Arad,Romania,Eastern Europe
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Sasa]
#5392766 - 08/29/12 07:53 AM
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Sasa Thank you for sharing your valuable experience,I will pay more attention in the future to thermal issues.
Last night the seeing was much better than the night before,I used both reflectors,the 125mm F/7 Dobsonian and 76mm F/9 Newtonian. The thermal stabilisation time was two and half hours. 36 And was splitted in the 125mm Dobsonian at 144x/Radian 6mm -it was love at first sight!Beautiful! 65 Psc was easy split in the 125mm telescope and it was split also by the 76mm Newtonian at 140x/Vixen 5mm Orthoscopic.Also this is a great view!
I will come back again tonight in that area of the sky because I noticed in TUBA ,there are many binocular doubles there,like 30 Ari,Lambda Ari,Psi Psc and 77 Psc. All four are in the 30''-40'' range,so they are irresistible for me!
I ''discovered'' last night something else:the best companion to CDSA seem to be my smallest binocular IOR 8X30mm because is not showing more stars than the atlas.
Thank you once again for the suggestions.
Mircea
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Sissy Haas
newbie
Reged: 08/28/12
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Sasa]
#5392894 - 08/29/12 09:23 AM Attachment (48 downloads)
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Hi Sasa,
I was referred to your splitting of Gamma Cygni with 80-mm, by one of the participants in a kind of research study I'm doing. It's in the September issue of Sky and Telescope, page 68. I wanted to know if I can have your permission to use your observation in this study? The important thing is that it meet the criteria I'm going to give, and it sounds like it does. I'm sending the same general explanation of the study I send everyone. Here it is:
I've planned to keep the parameters of the study narrow, simply to
avoid all the complexities of many variables. I only wanted to show
the smallest aperture which resolved a particular sep and mag difference.
That can be held as the ideal that is POSSIBLE. If an observer fails to resolve this
sep and mag difference with a scope of this size, he or she can know there
are reasons other than aperture alone for this. It might be the seeing, light
pollution, central obstruction, observer inexperience, poor eyesight, etc.
That can be a whole 'nuther study, I should think. I talked this over
with Dr.Brian Mason of the WDS and he thinks the idea is valid.
All I'm looking for, in terms of resolution, is your certainty you've seen
the companion. It needn't be split by any space, or even a one hundred
percent ball. Do you agree that it's not enough to have only a seen
darker edge on part of the main star? But so long as you've
UNQUESTIONABLY seen a second body next to the main star, then I think
we can call it resolved. Do you agree? In terms of the chart, a simple
yes or no is enough for each pair, if we agree on the above criteria.
The thing that's most important is that the observation be honest. Don't
claim to have seen the companion if you suspect but don't feel certain.
And as you don't need me to tell you, a companion you ALMOST think you
saw might show up on a better night.
Please write back if you have the time, it will be a big favor for me.
Sissy Haas, U.S.A.
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Sasa
sage
Reged: 11/03/10
Loc: Ricany, Czech Republic
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Sissy Haas]
#5393145 - 08/29/12 12:52 PM
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Hello Sissy, definitely you can use all of my observations. I've read about your interesting project already (there is a separate thread here on CN devoted to it).
I'm little bit confused which double you are interested in. There is probably typo in your message. If you meant gamma Ceti instead of gamma Cygni, then yes, I think I resolved it last year. Unfortunately my memory is bad and I don't recall the particular situation. All I know that I was trying it for 3 nights both with 80mm and 100mm lenses. The last attempt was succesful, I was using AS80/1200 with TMB SuperMono 7mm eyepiece (171x). I didn't write too many notes concerning the appearance, just that the position angle and distance corresponded with expected ones.
If you are interested, I can send to you all my observations of unequal stars through 63mm and 80mm scopes (I can add also 100mm and 110mm).
Alexander
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PJ Anway
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 06/04/03
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Sissy Haas]
#5393873 - 08/29/12 08:04 PM
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Hello Sissy,
Welcome to the group and to Cloudy Nights forums. And thanks for the nice observing program! I'll be sure to have a go at them.
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Sasa
sage
Reged: 11/03/10
Loc: Ricany, Czech Republic
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Sissy Haas]
#5394341 - 08/30/12 03:56 AM
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I had another short one hour session with AS80/1200 last night. Following the idea of Sissy's project, I was trying to investigate tight unequal doubles. Seeing was much worse than previous night. Airy discs were clearly visible but jumping, I would judge it as Pickering 5-6/10. Definitely quite bad for 80mm lens.
Even under those conditions I was able to split again pi Aql (200x). I tried as well mu Cyg (200x). It was much harder than previous night but still without doubt doable. I checked delta Cygni afterwords. This time it was not definitely routine. It was much harder to spot than mu Cygni. I had to really fight to see it. First, the star was just in zenith which is always troublesome position for alt-az mount. Second, it took me several minutes of precise focusing (in f/15!) before I started seeing the companion in short periods of time.
Then I tried another star from Sissy's list, 23 Aql (5.3+8.3, 3.0"). I split this star last year in ED100 when I accidentally run on it. It was difficult split already in 100mm refractor. Yesterday, in 80mm at 200x, it was even more difficult. Very faint companion was popping in only for tenths of seconds. But I was persistent and I managed to have few seconds clear and stable view of the secondary. I estimated its PA~10deg which I later found out to agree with correct position. My feeling was that I'm limitted not by the resolution but by faintness. Bright sky with almost full Moon was not helping. Another interesting fact is that when I switched to higher power (235x - Pentax XO5) I could not glimpse the secondary at all. It is true that I did not spent too much time at it with this eyepiece as with CZJ O-6, but I could not even get those tenths of seconds occasional glimpses through Pentax XO. May be it was too much of magnification for such bad conditions.
Finally, I tried STF2878 in Pegasus (6.9+8.1, 1.5"). At 200x, I could see nothing but ordinary star. At 235x, it was still just a star with very faint and difficult to see small tail which was roughly following the star. Later, at home, I found that PA is indeed 117deg (I like that PA is not listed in Cambridge double star atlas which I'm using in the field; I can use then estimated PA to confirm the split). I don't consider this double splited even if I guessed the position. It was just a guess and the view was not stable and clear enough. I think, the problem here was again faintness of the secondary. I need to find another candidate with delta M~1 and 1.5" separation.
Edited by Sasa (08/30/12 05:01 AM)
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RLTYS
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 12/18/04
Loc: New York (Long Island)
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Sissy Haas]
#5394383 - 08/30/12 06:08 AM
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Sissy Haas, welcome to the CN Double Star Forum. glad you could join our little group. 
Rich (RLTYS)
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Fuzzyguy
sage
Reged: 12/21/11
Loc: Colorado/Kansas
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: RLTYS]
#5394757 - 08/30/12 11:21 AM
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Quote:
I need to find another candidate with delta M~1 and 1.5" separation
Hi Sasa, I've enjoyed reading your reports. I'm just starting to view doubles and I appreciate all the tips here. As for finding a 1.5" split, Struve 3062 in Cas is close to a 1 Magnitude difference at a listed sep of 1.5". It is also paired with Struve 3057 which is a wider but still close double with a much dimmer companion. Both are interesting challenges. Good luck and have fun!
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Sasa
sage
Reged: 11/03/10
Loc: Ricany, Czech Republic
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Fuzzyguy]
#5394939 - 08/30/12 01:33 PM
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Thanks Larry. I already looked at those last year in AS80/1200. Not much luck due to very strong haze + full Moon. Of course I completely forgot about the couples...
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Cotts
Just Wondering
   
Reged: 10/10/05
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Sissy Haas]
#5395174 - 08/30/12 03:59 PM
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Bienvenu, Sissy. I am taking my Sky and Tel with your article/project in it with me to Okie- Tex. I will subject whichever of the stars are above the horizon to the gaze of both my 6" and my 16" scopes. Later this fall I'll hit the same stars with my 80mm and my 66mm.
Repeat in the spring/summer and I should be able to check all the stars in your list with all 4 telescopes.
Dave
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Sasa
sage
Reged: 11/03/10
Loc: Ricany, Czech Republic
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Cotts]
#5396071 - 08/31/12 03:46 AM
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Inspired by Sissy's table I put all of my observations of tight doubles to 2-D graph (delta mag versus distance): here. Blue markers correspond to detected doubles (in which I mean that I was quite sure at the eyepiece that I see the companion, either as separate star or prolonged star at correct PA), red ones to those which I could not crack. Black dashed line corresponds to Dawes limit of particular telescope.
There was one surprise. So far I did not realize that the only scope I consistently pass Dawes limit with is AS110 which I own only shortly (you can find more details about it here). I do not know yet if it is due to superior optics, my better experience or just different place (the observatory where I keep the telescope is about 15km away from my home where I observed most of the doubles in the other telescopes).
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Perseus_m45
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Reged: 07/16/11
Loc: pittsburgh area
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Sasa]
#5397163 - 08/31/12 06:44 PM
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sasa,, your mention a thread for the haas project...if you would direct me to it..maybe i'm blind..thank you ..mike
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Sasa
sage
Reged: 11/03/10
Loc: Ricany, Czech Republic
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Re: Short evening with doubles
[Re: Perseus_m45]
#5399915 - 09/02/12 05:03 PM
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Here:
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5353361
BTW, Sissy did not replay to my PM. Does someone know her e-mail or another way how to contact her?
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