Demorcan
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Central Illinois
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I am posting this in response to many questions I see on the various forums. These questions are from people noew to amatuer astronomy. They are in the form of which XXX will let me see the most. Or in the form of if I sell my xx inch and get a yy inch will I see more.
The best way to see more is to VIEW!! Experience is the greatest aid to seeing more. I have stood beside someone viewing Jupiter. The first night they saw 4 moons. After a week, they saw a couple dark bands on a whiter orb. After a few months, they were seeing festoons. All of this was with the same scope and eyepiece. I have seen the same happen observing details in galaxies or nebula or in observing globular clusters. About the only subjects where I have not seen experience improve views is open clusters.
Now some of you are going to want to know why this is so. And perhaps to find if there is a way to speed the process. There are mutliple things that happen with experience. First is "training" your eyes. In actuality, you are training your brain to see under conditions unfamiliar to you. An example is looking at the moon. The first time you look, you will see circles on a smooth surface and perhaps some lines. It is impressive the first time. As you look, your brain developes a pattern of this image. The next time you look at the same part of the moon, your brain will go to this image it has stored. There will not be that unconscious reaction, "what the heck is this?" The brain will recognize the image. So this time it will not be saving and cataloging. This will enable you to see more detail. Perhaps you will notice the edges of those round things have rough edges which are different on each one. As this continues, it will reach a place where you can see more craterlets in the craters (especially Plato). And more detail.
There are too side effects of this "training" your eyes (really your brain. One is that as you become able to see the festoons, etc on Jupiter, you will see them almost every time you observe - even when they are not visible. The brain knows what to expect and so it sees it. This characteristic of the brain has been studied often. The studies are one reason many police departments discount most of an eye witness account. The other side effect of this is attemping to answer the "what can I see" questions. It depends on your experience.
So far I have dealt with a bright object, the moon. And mentioned Jupiter. It is also the reason you can view Saturn for awhile and then suddenly see the Ccassini division for the first time - or the planet detail, etc.
There is another part of viewing. This is viewing the DSOs. The effect above is still active. But here there is more at work. Your eye consists of 2 kinds of detectors in it. One of these is the what detects color in the daytime. The other is what detects dim objects at night. Actually these both work all of the time. It is the ratio that the brain combines them in that changes. The rods are what detects low light levels and movement. The rods are very sensitive to light. However, cones are predominate in daytime seeing. The brain in most people is trained to utilize the cones primarily. Besides the training mentioned above, the brain also controls chemicals in the body (unconsciously). The rods require a chemical to see low light levels. When you go to view at night, the brain slowly switches to utilize the rod recptors over the cone ones. This takes an amount of time. This is "night vision" or dark adaption". The first time you go out to use a telescope at night, this will take quite awhile. The brain knows this is temporary and you will soon be in light. So it is slow to utilize the rods.
If you stay out until you can see well at night, the next time the brain remembers the first time, and switches quicker. Only slightly quicker the first time. But after a time, your night vision will come sooner.
I mentioned above a chemical the rods need to operate at their greatest efficently. The brain is not used to sending this chemical to the rods when you start out in astronomy. As you spend more time observing, the brain begans to order increased production of this chemical and to send it to the rods sooner. This means your night vision will become more acute over time and you will see dimmer things. The more experience you get, the dimmer objects you can see, the quicker your eyes can see them after going out, and the more detail you can see.
The detail I explained at the start. But there is another part to it. You do not want to observe every object for day after day to finally see it in detail. The good part is you do not have to. As your brain builds up a catalog of objects, it will compare what you are seeing to what is in the catalog. When it does not find a match, but finds one close with a difference, it processes those differences. Because the brain is processing them, you can see them. So as you look at globular clusters (for example) you will notice the texture of each and subtle differences. The same with galaxies, etc.
Now that you have seen you are training your brain, how do you use this knowledge to see more? First you are continually training your brain. The time you train it for observing through binoculars or a telescope is a small porportion of the total time you are training it. The first thing to do is increase the ratio of time you are observing. If you observe 1 day a month, increasing your seeing ability will take a long time. Because you are teaching the brain this is a low priority in the things you want your body to do. If you are out every night, the the percentage of time spent observing goes up greatly. The brain assigns a higher priority to it and learns faster. Once the brain learns something it remembers to a degree. This means that if you observe every night to acquire good observing vision, you do not have to spend as much time to keep the level of observing vision you have achieved. If you quit completely for awhile, your brain will began to refile the ability among other unimportant knowledge. When you then commence viewing again a few years later, the brain will have this memoory and as you observe, it will recall the memories. This will make a quicker acclimation than the original time you trained it for astronomy.
All of this is a long way to get to what I said at the start. To see more observe every chance you get. The best accessory for any scope is experienced eyes. This is the #1 thing you need to fully utilize your scope. On cloudy nights, you can still find dark areas to improve your night vision. Try to spend every night in dark. Even turning off any night lights, pulling blinds, etc will help to improve your night vision. Night vision not only is good for viewing DSOs, it will also help you to now trip over that tripod leg on the way to your site. And the reason I went into such length has to do with training your brain also. The more you feed it a piece of information, the more the brain acts upon it. To get something into the subconscious you need to repeat it often in different ways. This post is not only meant to inform you. But to push your brain to believe it and act upon it.
If you are new to amatuer astronomy, time spent outside viewing will help you see more than searching for the next scope to buy.
-------------------- Wayne
80 mm refractor to 8" newt
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Daniel Mounsey
Vendor - Woodland Hils
   
Reged: 06/12/02
Posts: 3200
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Great article Wayne. I totally agree. I think people need to be reminded of this fact of nature within us. It's so difficult getting them to realize this.
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sienarot
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 10/18/03
Posts: 708
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
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That's a really good write up Wayne!!
At first I saw how much text there was and immediately though "Ugh! Verbal diarrhea!" I really need to train my eyes to read the contents of the text rather than the amount before hitting the "Back" button my browser
-------------------- Derrick
Sky-Watcher 80ED f/7.5 Refractor
Celestron C8 SCT f/10 SCT
Canon EOS 20D
Logitech Quickcam Pro 4000
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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very enlightening article & thank you for your wisdom 
they are very good holistic remedies for aperture fever 
drolma
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FAB
Stargeezer
   
Reged: 08/06/04
Posts: 2498
Loc: Blythe, CA USA
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A great piece. Every newbie should be grateful to you for sharing your knowledge (and maybe even some of us that aren't so new.) FAB
-------------------- Floie
10.0" Hardin Dob
6.0" Konus Refractor
3.0" Celestron Tabletop Newtonian
10X50 Binoculars
Amscope T490A Trinocular Compound Microscope
Amscope SW2T13Y Trinocular Stereo Micoscope
http://home.earthlink.net/~blhtvl
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Chris Graham
mmmm...Haggis
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 4883
Loc: Stirling, Scotland
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A very helpful piece of information, thanks!
-------------------- -Skywatcher 8" Reflector on HEQ5 with Skyscan
-Orion ED80 Refractor
-70mm Guidescope/grab and go scope
-Canon EOS 350D
-Toucam Pro 2
Astronomy & Veggies
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ForgottenMObject
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/11/04
Posts: 3606
Loc: Maryland, US
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Very true!
Having a huge scope but rarely using it and/or not really understanding how to observe is not as good as having a smaller scope but pushing it to the limits.
One minor point I have to make is that open clusters, IMHO, do benefit from the concepts in this article as well, particularly dense open clusters with dark lanes or hosts of stars at the edge of visibility. Also, with time colors in stars can appear in open clusters with repeated observing. I've found that fun - comparing which stars had a noticeable color to which ones show up with bright colors in photos of the clusters.
-------------------- Matthew
IDA member
XT8i, 10x50 binoculars, lots of eyepieces
Edited by ForgottenMObject (01/06/05 08:18 AM)
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Great post! Even aside from astronomy, I find that attempting to draw or sketch what I see has a very powerfull training effect on my ability to observe.
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Bill Grass
Prince Regent
   
Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 11662
Loc: Denham Springs, LA
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Excellent post, Wayne! I think this oughta be a sticky at the top of the forum.
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dgs©
Postmaster
   
Reged: 03/29/04
Posts: 15042
Loc: West Monroe, Louisiana
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Certainly deserves to be pinned at the top.  If I may add... I find that even in the short term, the longer I look, the more I see. Don't get a target in view and then spend all of 15 seconds on it before moving on. Allowing the eye to wander over the FOV for a while often reveals details that went unnoticed at first glance. I don't know if more years of experience might negate this. Taking into account familiarity with detail that is attainable, as mentioned by Wayne, a more 'seasoned' observer may gain less from the prolonged observing of a single target. But I'd bet more seasoned observers typically linger over objects just the same.
-------------------- - david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm
"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike
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markf
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/13/04
Posts: 1935
Loc: Houston, TX
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Very nice write up! I'm in the 1 day a month catagory, though I'd love to go out everynight, but it's not practical, as I have to drive out to a dark sight to really take in the views. (living in barely mag 3 skies is depressing )
BUT, even with my limited viewing, I've noticed I can pick up a few more details a lot quicker. My feeble attempts at sketching really do help, especially when I see a post with the same object sketched and can see that I'm not all that far off.
This also means I've progressed to where I can start seeing the problems with my eyepieces, and now researching upgrading them. Which we all know leads down the path of eyepiece addiction....but that's a whole other issue 
Mark
-------------------- Celestron C6N on a CG5-GT
Orion 80mm Refractor (guidescope)
ToUCam Pro II
Canon Digital Rebel
http://www.carsandfish.com/astroweb
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I myself am new to this hobby, but in my opinion, learning to observe is much like learning to play an instrument, or speak a new language in that it takes training and experience to become proficient. For example, when I was first learning to play guitar, people would say "Hey play me something." This is an unrealistic expectation for a beginner to accomplish. It takes a good bit of time and experience before on can play anything pleasing to the ear. I think the same is true (to a lesser degree) with astronomy. For instance, I had a friend who tagged along with me one night for some observing. I think he was somewhat unimpressed at first because his expectation was that this is an easy hobby and that I would be able to show him dozens upon dozens of interesting objects. He hadn't realized that there is much skill and knowledge to be acquired and that I, as a beginner, had not yet attained that kind of ability. In short, I think a lot of newcomers (myself included) underestimate the amount actual learning this hobby requires and can become a bit frustrated. Once this is realized however, one only needs to realize that this is a hobby to be enjoyed and mastered over a lifetime. That's not such a bad thing in my opinion.
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Daniel Mounsey
Vendor - Woodland Hils
   
Reged: 06/12/02
Posts: 3200
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I would highly recommend this post to any observer, myself included. We all need it.
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Chris Schroeder
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/11/04
Posts: 6554
Loc: N.E. WI Sky Glow
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Great article Wayne, I agree it should be pinned
-------------------- Chris
Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
10" DSH with SC DSC, CPC 800 XLT
M110 Doublet ED, AT 102Achro, ZS80FD 10th Anniv, ZS66SD, PST
CG5-AGT, EZ-Touch, Voyager
POD XL3 http://POD.SchroederCity.com
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lighttrap
   
Reged: 02/06/04
Posts: 3833
Loc: cloudy, foggy, humid NC, US
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This will get pinned, but we're probably going to restructure how we pin things in this forum to make it less cluttered. Be patient.
Mike
-------------------- 18" Starsplitter II f/4.5
8" Hardin Dob f/6
C5 workhorse mini SCT f/10 or f/6.3
70mm TV Ranger dual purpose birding/astro
77mm Leica Televid APO
16x70 Fujinons on UA Deluxe Mt.
12x50 Nikon SE
8x30 Nikon E2s
and many others
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BillFerris
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/17/04
Posts: 2909
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While I agree wholeheartedly that the best way to become a better observer--to see more--is to get out and observe, I have to admit I'm highly skeptical of your comments about the body/brain learning to become dark adapted faster through the repetition of observing.
The first time a person goes out at night with a telescope is hardly the first time they've been in a darkened environment. Amateur astronomers bring a lifetime's experience to the hobby of being outside at night and in other dark places. As such, any dark adaptation training the body/brain requires has been satisfied years before we discover this hobby.
As far as I know having read quite a bit on the subject of dark adaptation, the biggest factor determining how long the process takes is the degree to which your rhodopsin has been bleached during the day by exposure to the Sun and other light sources.
If you're aware of research that shows observing experience speeds up the dark adaptation process, I'd be very interested to read it.
Regards,
Bill in Flagstaff
-------------------- Grand Canyon Adventure
Lowering the Threshold
18" Obsession
4.5" Meade 4500
10x50 Swift Audubon
Cosmic Voyage
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Ron B[ee]
Tyro
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 4719
Loc: CA
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Quote:
I am posting this in response to many questions I see on the various forums. These questions are from people noew to amatuer astronomy. They are in the form of which XXX will let me see the most. Or in the form of if I sell my xx inch and get a yy inch will I see more.
If you are new to amatuer astronomy, time spent outside viewing will help you see more than searching for the next scope to buy.
What an excellent article, Wayne ! I think you should submit it to CN to be permanently included in the Article section.
Your article is so complete; if there's only one small thing I can add to it is this. I've personally found that the technique of "retinal imaging" , a term my Light Cup christened for sketching also help the observer to see more. The reason is because it let you focus deep in the "Force" and concentrate on features or on that decisive moment when they become crystal clear. Here's a very helpful article by my e-Mentor who helped me develop this skill set. http://members.leapmail.net/~ericj/drawing.html
Ron the 4-inch Tall Evangelist B[ee]
-------------------- 5-inch Tele Vue NP127 APO
4-inch Tele Vue TV-102 APO
8-inch f/6 Discovery PDHQ Dob
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Memo
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/05/04
Posts: 529
Loc: Bogotá, Colombia
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Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences, excellent post. Best regards
-------------------- Guillermo Castaño (SIRIO)
Orion XT8i / Intelliscope
Bushnell 10x50
Green eyes -0.25 Astigmatism
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celestial_search
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 11/18/04
Posts: 2531
Loc: Iowa, USA
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Thanks for posting that interesting article. It does raise more questions for me than it answers! That is probably good. You can read many posts in Cloudy Nights about aperture, APO vs. achromatic, Takahashi vs. Celestron, etc., Nagler EPs vs. lower forms of EP life, stable mounts, seeing conditions, and much more.
Does your article suggest that an experienced observer with trainined eyes and average equipment with a standard Plossl EP can get more out of the observing session than the same equipment with a Newbie and Nagler?
You really bring up some good points and something for people to consider other than "jump on the bandwagon" brand names and "shoot out" reviews. Call me skeptical about "expensive, superior EPs," but I tend to agree with you about the human factor is the most significant factor.
This discussion reminds me of people who work out at the gym. I see guys who buy the latest expensive gear that supposedly does all these wonderful things, yadda, yadda, yadda, and yet the experienced vets with ratty tennis shoes and worn out lifting gloves with better discipline, technique, knowledge, and experience do much better. I realize that optical quality is a factor in viewing, by you are really emphasizing a human quality as perhaps the most significant element in observing and I tend to agree.
Regards,
-------------------- Frank
C-11 XLT
8" f/6 Newt on GEM
Tak FS-102II
SV 80L Triplet APO
EQ-6 Mount on pier in backyard observatory (EQMOD)
CG-5 AS (GOTO)
SBIG ST-5C CCD and Canon Rebel XSI
SSAG
Oberwerk 15X70s and Pentax 10X21s
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Excellent post, Wayne! I think this oughta be a sticky at the top of the forum.
i agree as well
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Cerberus
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 2689
Loc: Newton, KS 67114
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Great article!!!!
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desertstars
Please stand by...
   
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34563
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Demorcan, I agree with your sentiments completely. No matter how the body and brain learns to observe, a yard full of expensive equipment won't do more for the beginner than a few months of experience at the eyepiece. The equipment is certainly a necessity, but the observer is what makes it work.
-------------------- Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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rmcpb
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/16/04
Posts: 1606
Loc: Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia
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This article is really great!! If it became a "standard" along with the articles on "tuning" telescopes and really getting to know how they work many people would get much more out of their hobby.
Cheers
-------------------- Rob Browne
8" & 13" Dobs
Equatorial Platform
Couple of Panoptics and a handful of BO/TMBs
9x60 binocs
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antar8x
member
Reged: 01/06/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Bogota D.C., Colombia
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I just be introduced to the Universe... and read this makes me think about how serious is this hobby... I hope Soon I will contribute with my own experiences.
-------------------- ____________________________________8X
Jorge G Calderon G
Bogota D.C., Colombia (2640 mts closer to the stars)
Orion DOB XT8 (SIMON)
Meade ETX-60AT-BB for my vacations days
BINO 10x50 Bushnell
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chazcheese
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/21/04
Posts: 545
Loc: Phoenix, Az
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Thank you for your great post. My wife asked me a year or so ago why I keep looking at the same things over and over. Told her pretty much the same thing, "The more I look, the more I see" Again, thank you great post.
-------------------- chuck
10" Orion xt
8" Meade LX200 mount/2080 OTA
C4R on CG5
Vixen ED80Sf on Porta Mount
AT-1010
PST
12X63 mini giants
15x70 Skymasters
Virgo Bino mount on Sanford/Davis tripod
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Wonderful post! I have had my scope for 1 1/2 years and before discovering this site, was content in just looking about the skies with star charts in hand, getting familiar with the 'great beyond' and my scope. This site, your posts and varied opinions has truely broadened my appreciation for this hobby and.... broadened my 'wish list'(telrad, filters, etc), but this post alone has made me stop, take stock in the basic idea that one must learn to walk before running. Thank you all so very much for your wisdom that only experience can bring! Clear skies, Snowy
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Rusty
Postmaster
   
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 17720
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Great job Wayne; you've hit the distinction between "looking" and "observing"!
-------------------- N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Demorcan
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Central Illinois
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Quote:
The first time a person goes out at night with a telescope is hardly the first time they've been in a darkened environment. Amateur astronomers bring a lifetime's experience to the hobby of being outside at night and in other dark places. As such, any dark adaptation training the body/brain requires has been satisfied years before we discover this hobby.
As far as I know having read quite a bit on the subject of dark adaptation, the biggest factor determining how long the process takes is the degree to which your rhodopsin has been bleached during the day by exposure to the Sun and other light sources.
You are correct. A person waking up in the middle of the night will be at near fully dark adapted vision. A short nap before observing is the best way to prepare for observing after a day in bright lights. The amount of rhodopsin (visual purple) available to the rods varies short term with the amount of light hitting the eyes which causes it to somewhat break down. The way the brain uses what is available is also a factor. I do not know which is the limiting factor.
Night vision improves from being in the dark and allowing your eyes to become dark adapted. Many people have good night vision who do not use telescopes at all. Night vision is also effected my chemicals in the body. Nicotine from smoking has both short and long term negative effects in night vision. Eye dilation and pupil size is also a part of dark adapted vision which I did not discuss.
Some of the things I discussed are incidental to studies on another topic. I read medical journals, etc and then summerize the information to send to doctors who do not have the time to read everything every month. There are of course sources listed so the doctors can follow up anything they want. Over time I do not keep the sources, just notes of the information that interests me.
The night vision improvement over time was from a government study for improving the training of some combat troops who operate at night. I am not sure what paper it was in. I will hunt it up when my post holiday schedule gives me a little more time.
-------------------- Wayne
80 mm refractor to 8" newt
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Demorcan
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Central Illinois
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Quote:
Does your article suggest that an experienced observer with trainined eyes and average equipment with a standard Plossl EP can get more out of the observing session than the same equipment with a Newbie and Nagler?
Yes, that is exactly what it suggests to a degree. If we define "get more out of the observing session" as seeing more. I limit it in this way, because a person may get more out of their first view of Saturn than an experienced user gets who sees more. The first view of Saturn usually has an emotional effect beyond just the details noted. The choice of a Nagler is interesting. When I saw the view with a 31mm Nagler in one of my scopes, it was an emotional experience that was unrelated to the exact details and stars I saw. This cannot be ignored.
I would say based on star party experiences, that an experienced observor with an 8" scope would see more details of a subject than a new viewer with a 10" scope of the same quality. I think the difference is more than the 2 inches from the number of times I have seen. I personally am in the middle area and constanyly have to be aware of this when showing people objects through my scopes. I have personally seen a night when an experienced user was looking at Jupiter through my 5"OA and discussing hte GRS appearance that night. Next to me was the new owner of a 10" Dob who could not see the bands much less the GRS. Through his scope, I could see some festoons and the GRS. But not through my 5" that night.
-------------------- Wayne
80 mm refractor to 8" newt
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Demorcan
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Central Illinois
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Quote:
I just be introduced to the Universe... and read this makes me think about how serious is this hobby... I hope Soon I will contribute with my own experiences.
Until you contribute with your own experiences, you contribute by being here. A post like this that you found value in a post is encouragement to many of us who offer from our knowledge and experience here.
-------------------- Wayne
80 mm refractor to 8" newt
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Demorcan
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Central Illinois
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Thank you to those who have added to my basic ideas. I had no experience one way or another about open clusters. The mention of sketching really deserves to be considered. While not every is of a temperament to sketch, those who make the attempt will see more the first night they do. You see more from just taking that extra time, noting what you see, going back to the view to add more, and so on.
-------------------- Wayne
80 mm refractor to 8" newt
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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All of my astro gear came with directions,heres a set of directions for your eyes.Very well said,thanks Wayne! Bill
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Nauset
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/24/04
Posts: 3474
Loc: Cape Cod
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Nicely done Wayne. I guess I don't think about "training' my eyes as work. The pleasure I obtain from this hobby is the ongoing process of just exploring. I set up my gear in front of my house and just explore the night sky with my eyes for about 20 minutes before turning to look through my scope. As Sam mentioned, some newcomers have expectations that they will be viewing dozens upon dozens of interesting objects and underestimate the actual amount of learning this hobby requires. This is precisely why I find this hobby so pleasurable. There is always something new to learn and some beautiful unobserved object to discover.
-------------------- Betsy
Hardin 8" Dob (inspected by J. Dobson himself), Portaball 12.5", several Naglers, Oberwerks 11x56, Meade Kestrel 10x42
Betsy
-------------
Cape Cod Astronomical Society www.ccas.ws
avatar of Cape Cod taken by Dan Burbank from the Discovery Shuttle
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Stargazer2
super member
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 172
Loc: Silverton, Oregon
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Thanks for this good review on sensory training. Hopefully it will help me be a little more patient with myself and at the same time more diligent.
I should have recognized the learning curve since I've been through it twice before.
The first time involved training my hearing in the automotive trade which was definately helpful in diagnosing engine problems.
The second was when I became a watchmaker. You definately need to train your eyes to recognize things that seemed virtually invisibly at first glance.
Hopefully this will encourage newcomers to give it a go, not give up too quickly and enjoy the process of exploring.
-------------------- Dale
Hardin 10" DSH in Beautiful Black
Swift 7x50
Meade 12x50
Celestron 15x70
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Tim2723
The Moon Guy
   
Reged: 02/19/04
Posts: 5153
Loc: Northern New Jersey
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Great article Wayne!
This is an excerpt (thanks Dan Luna!) from "The Moon, Considered as a Planet, a World, and a Satellite" by James Nasymth and James Carpenter, which was written in 1874:
"...And supposing the telescope and atmosphere in good state, there is still an important point, the state of the observer's eye, to be considered. After all it is the eye that sees, and the best telescopic assistance to an untrained eye is of small avail. The eye is as susceptible of education and development as any other organ; a skilful and acute observer is to a mere casual gazer what a watchmaker would be to a ploughman, a miniature painter to a whitewasher. This fact is not generally recognised; no man would think of taking in hand an engraver's burin, and expecting on the instant to use it like an adept, or of going to a smithy and without previous preparation trying to forge a horse-shoe. Yet do folks enter observatories with uneducated eyes, and expect at once to realise all the wonderful things that their minds have pictured to themselves from the perusal of astronomical books. We have over and over again remarked the dissatisfaction which attends the first looks of novices through a powerful telescope. They anticipate immediately beholding wonders, and they are disappointed at finding how little they can see, and how far short the sight falls of what they had expected. Courtesy at times leads them to express wonder and surprise, which it is easy to see is not really felt, but sometimes honesty compels them to give expression to their disappointment. This arises from the simple fact that their eyes are not fit for the work which is for the moment imposed upon them ; they know not what to look for, or how to look for it. The first essay at telescopic gazing, like first essays generally, serves but to teach us our incapability."
That was true in 1874, and is still true today.
-------------------- The crwth will set you free!
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BobNY
super member
Reged: 11/30/04
Posts: 157
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Wayne,
Thanks for a great, and educational article. Your article pretty much explains my first three times out with my new telescope. I have viewed Saturn a few times, and haven't yet been able to see the Cassini Division, or any details.
This morning I woke up and went out to view Jupiter for my first time. At first I couldn't see any detail. I must say I was a bit disappointed. I was thinking I am expecting to much from my 5" Newt. I continued to view longer, and eventually was able to see two bands. They were faint, but there. Also last night I was scanning the sky to observe some deep sky objects. That was definately frustrating. I guess patients, and persistence is my answer. Darn...and I was already to go out and get a bigger scope.
Thanks again for the great info.
This should be included in the firsy few pages of every telescope owners manual.
Bob
Edited by BobNY (01/11/05 10:46 PM)
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LeSage
member
Reged: 01/18/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Wichita, KS
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This article was very encouraging to me also. And fascinating. And I agree: I've had my 8" newt for about a month, and had my 70mm refractor for a month before that. It's been cloudy a lot of that time, but I still carry the stuff out to the backyard every chance I get. So...I have not yet managed to see M33, and I've looked for it two or three times. The skies here are about 4.5 mag, from what I can figure--I can't see the 5th mag star in the Little Dipper, but if I wait and concentrate I can see all the others. So maybe it's the sky and not me that's at "fault" here. 
I find myself most nights spending more time just staring up at the sky than actually looking throught the eyepiece--I'm still trying to learn the constellations, the names of the brighter stars, the relationship of the different bits to the other bits when you turn around and face another direction, using averted vision to figure out if I can really pick out some of the clusters without my finder--just trying to get oriented.
Last night I waited up later than usual to see Jupiter, and what I saw confirms what others have said above. I could see the four large moons, of course, and at first nothing on the the planet itself. But I kept going back to it (while also searching for M51, unsuccessfully), and by the time I packed up I had seen two dark bands on the big boy. I was hopping back and forth between the two telescopes, partly to get used to using them both and partly to see if one or the other was really all that superior. In my light-polluted skies, I'm not sure the 8", at least for someone of my current skill level at observing, is that much of an advantage over the 70mm. Maybe I'll change my tune after I get better at this.
But soon, very soon, I'm loading all the toys into the car and driving out to the dark sky site I have in mind, and THEN we'll see what can be seen.
Sheryl
-------------------- Sheryl LeSage
8" Starhopper
130mm Nexstar SLT
Firstscope 70
Optiview 10X50's
Celestron 15 X 70's
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Darts
member
Reged: 02/13/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Redford, Mich
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This article, while I'm sure helpful, is rather depressing to the noob (me) who hasn't even looked through a real scope yet. I'm at the "research" stage of this hobby and have been reading this forum since last thursday, every chance I get, and I'm overwhelmed to be honest. I've found this site VERY informative, newbie friendly, and from what I've seen so far, one of the better forums for learning this hobby.
My question is, just how disappointed am I going to be when I go to the local hobby shop that has demos every thursday, weather permitting, when they demo the C6R, or XT 10" or a Meade LX200? Will I see a blob of Saturn when the guy giving the demo will see the Cassini division?
I understand I need patience, you all have stressed that home to me. But I have to admit, that this article leaves me with reservations about what scope to buy now. Some say they see stuff with an SCT 5" and other see stuff with a 10" dob. Some stuff costs thousands, and other stuff costs 500 or so. Is this article saying I can get away with 500 bucks of equipment and the same amount of training as someone with 5000 worth of equipment? Is this article also saying that this hobby isn't something I can spontaniously impress friends and family with the occasional view because they haven't been trained in "seeing"?
I don't in anyway mean to be disrespectful, especially this being my first post and never looking through a real scope after 44 years on this rock. ( I had a Kmart scope when I was 8, does that count?) 
I'm looking to purchase the Orion XT10 for more of the DSO's rather than the planets, will this take even more patience and training?
-------------------- Meade 16" Light Bridge
Q70 Series 38, 32, 26mm
Televue 19mm Panoptic
Televue 17mm Ethos
Teleview 11 & 8mm Plossl
Televue 8-24 Zoom
7 X 35 Cheapy Binos
20X90 Oberwerk w/UA P-mount on Surveyor Tripod
Coronado PST
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dgs©
Postmaster
   
Reged: 03/29/04
Posts: 15042
Loc: West Monroe, Louisiana
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You'll see plenty right off the bat with a 10"Ø Newtonian. The Dob mount will save you money too. Images of Saturn will knock anyones socks off. Every time I have my 8"Ø out for other people to look through (school events) at least one person will say, "that's a picture in there isn't it"... never fails.  The Cassini Division is alway there for me, unless the atmospheric seeing is just terrible. Only the banding on the planet itself is subtle, and even that can be picked out by a novice. Jupiter will show stripes (equatorial belts and zones) but swirls and festoons will take some practice to pick out I think. Transits of moons across the face of jupiter are obvious at times and shadow transits even moreso. Many clusters (globular and open) will be stunning to anyone as well. Orion's Nebula is spectacular and easy. Lots of other nebulae are easy enough to pick out, but not usually as big and splashy as Orion's. And of course there's always the moon. Larger aperture gives higher resolution for greater detail. You'll want a Variable Polarizing filter for that, as the moon is as bright as a flashlight directly in the eye.
If your lucky enough to have a local demonstration night, be sure to take advantage.
And welcome to Cloudy Nights. Stick around and let us help you dispose of some of that extra money you have lying around.
-------------------- - david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm
"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike
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Darts
member
Reged: 02/13/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Redford, Mich
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Thanks for the encouragement, David. Can you pick out detail in Andromeda with your 8" Dob? How about M33? Or will these require more seeing experience? As for the Demo, its looking like a wash for this thursday because of clouds. Also, I live in a fairly urban area, (real close to Detroit) so how much will light polution affect a Demo on a 10" dob? Should I start posting questions like this in another thread?
-------------------- Meade 16" Light Bridge
Q70 Series 38, 32, 26mm
Televue 19mm Panoptic
Televue 17mm Ethos
Teleview 11 & 8mm Plossl
Televue 8-24 Zoom
7 X 35 Cheapy Binos
20X90 Oberwerk w/UA P-mount on Surveyor Tripod
Coronado PST
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dgs©
Postmaster
   
Reged: 03/29/04
Posts: 15042
Loc: West Monroe, Louisiana
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M31 doesn't show me any detail from home, where my sky is ~4.5 magnitude. I haven't had a chance to try it in really dark sky yet. I've heard some more experienced say that dust lanes can be seen in an 8"Ø from a really dark site.  I've also heard (and this is a huge generalization) that 12"Ø is about where detail in galaxies becomes easy to pick out. In other words, I gather that galaxy detail takes some effort and no small amount of training/experience in less than a 12"Ø. I haven't tried M33 yet. Not sure how I've missed that one so far.
If you live 'real close to Detroit', your light pollution is probably worse than mine. A good light pollution filter may do you some good.
Hopefully, they will reschedule a demo night. Seems like an excellent sales tool.
Keep in mind, planets like Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn aren't affected by light pollution. The moon or sun either for that matter, and all those will look great in anything over a few inches.
In case you aren't aware, the resolving power of a scope is mathematically tied to its aperture... bigger aperture = greater resolution (finer detail visible). Keep that in mind as well.
Also, the idea of looking longer doesn't just refer to more years. If you look at Saturn for 20 minutes without taking your eye from the eyepiece, you will see more detail than if you just look at it for a minute and then move on to other targets. Seeing (atmospheric interference) varies continuously... sometimes the air column you are looking through gets very still and the view is crystal clear. Trouble is, these occurances are usually short lived and spaced out in time. On a good night you might get 10 to 15 seconds out of a minute, with the longest stretch being only 3 seconds. The actual number of seconds isn't important, but having your eye to the eyepiece the whole time so you don't miss those great seconds is important.
You should probably start a new thread (still here in the Beginners section) with other questions. This thread is getting long in the tooth, and a fresh question in the subject line will likely attract more contributors.
-------------------- - david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm
"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike
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Demorcan
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Central Illinois
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Thank you for your comments. I am glad the post was of some use to you.
In reply, first of all, you will see something the first time you look. Especially when you start with brighter objects. Saturn always seems to be impressive the first time one sees it. Looking at it over time, you will see more detail. But the first look is still impressive. Jupiter and its moons are also easy. Moon shadows on Jupiter are also easy. Saturns rings and Jupiter and its moons should be visible in any scope worth owning. I was out this week and let someone see Saturn for the first time with a 5" scope and they saw the rings and difference in color between the inner and outer rings. Depending on the scope and viewing, all of the planets and Messier objects can be seen by an inexperienced viewer. Some maybe less impressive with smaller scopes and your inexperience. But even these, know how ot find them and having seen them once will be a big help when you back to look at them sometime later on.
Anytime you have a chance to view through a more experienced users scope do it. Most experienced users will have one of the show pieces (or more) to show newcomers. You will see something new and usually learn something. If you discuss what you see, then can sometimes suggest things to look for to see more detail. The people who set up scopes at public viewings enjoy showing the views and answering questions.
The moon is also a good way to start out. It is different every night of the month. Not only will you see different details on the terminus each day, you will also be getting familiar with your new scope. The moon is bright and does not require night vision. That means you can easily see your scopes adjustments as you view. The experience you gain in using your scope will help later. When you view dsos later on, you can concentrate on viewing instead of trying to figure out how to use the scope. The moon also lets you try almost any eyepiece combination you have. There is no better way to understand the field of view and magnifcation of different eyepieces than by using them. You will also see how higher power lowers brightness. And, you will notice on different nights you can use higher power than on other nights. This will help you understand seeing. If you have a barlow and smaller eyepieces, you should be able to reach a point where more magnification does not show any more details or may even break down. All of this will help you when you are trying to see dos. You will know which eyepiece to start with if you need a brighter view to see more. The same for when you need more power, etc. You will also learn how to track at higher power with your scope. This will be a big help when you are viewing a dim object that may not be visible to the naked eye. If you lose the dimmer dso from the view, you will know how to get it back in view quickly.
A suggestion here is to also look at the edge of the moon. You will see how the sky brightness varies with different eyepieces or scope size. You may also find a combination that gives more or less contrast.
There is much to be learned to aid in seeing more. Anything you can learn now will help later. You do not need ideal conditions. The more time you spend with your scope, the more natural its operation will be. This will save time later on, giving you more viewing experience.
Sheryl, your starhopper should show more than the 70mm. If their is light pollution, the sky may be darker in the 70mm giving open clusters, etc a more pleasant look. The 8" may need collimation. It will also take longer to cool when that is a factor. Looking through both at the same object is a good way to gain experience. I still like taking out my 90mm and 8" together.
Finally, I want to point out something sometimes overlooked here. Astronomy is not a competitive sport. You do not have to see what someone else does. Nor do you have to have the same size or cost scope they do. The main thing is to enjoy yourself. I still enjoy a night with the binoculars under a dark sky. It does not matter than someone with a scope sees more (or less). Have fun. You do not have to see more to enjoy this hobby. It should be fun from the first say on. You do not have to wait until see more. Enjoy the things you can see now. They are new to you. One day if you see more detail, that will also be new to you. I cannot repeat enough. This hobby in not a competition. There is no reason to compare yourself with someone else. Well over 90% of the people in world have never seen anything through a scope. Use it one time to see the moon, and you are in a select group. Savor that. Take your time and do not miss anything at the early stage of your telescope viewing. You will never have a 2nd first view of Saturn, Jupiter, the Moon, or any dso. Cherish those first views. Perhaps even take a moment to realize what you are accomplishing and viewing. This hobby is nor a race. It is never over and you will never see every viewable dso and comet. If you are waiting for the day when you have accomplished everything and mastered it all, then you are in the wrong hobby. Everyone here started just like you. The things they saw as they started the hobby kept their interest and drew them into observing again and again. Follow their path and find pleasure in what you can see today. Anything else is a path to fustration. There will always be someone with a bigger scope who can see some detail or dim object you cannot. If this is going to take the joy from your observing, then perhaps you need to find a different hobby. However, I would hope that you like many of us here enjoy the time spent under the night sky getting to know it better and seeing more of what it has to offer.
Thank you for taking the time to read and consider my opinions.
-------------------- Wayne
80 mm refractor to 8" newt
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Demorcan
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Central Illinois
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Quote:
I understand I need patience, you all have stressed that home to me. But I have to admit, that this article leaves me with reservations about what scope to buy now. Some say they see stuff with an SCT 5" and other see stuff with a 10" dob. Some stuff costs thousands, and other stuff costs 500 or so. Is this article saying I can get away with 500 bucks of equipment and the same amount of training as someone with 5000 worth of equipment? Is this article also saying that this hobby isn't something I can spontaniously impress friends and family with the occasional view because they haven't been trained in "seeing"?
There are show piece objects which most anyone can see. However do not asking blind aunt to look through your scope and be impressed. It is somewhat important to be selective about what you show them. Most of the time when you show someone not in the boddy, they will not be impressed with a dim fuzzy. Occasionally, I have seen someone at a public viewing who was more interested in showing the limits of their scope than in creating a memorable experience for the viewer. Sometimes this occurs with a newer telescope owner who wants to show the newest object they found. The solar system objects are usually good for any viewer. Pleiades, Orion Nebula, the Beehive Cluster, etc are also good views for showing the public (friends, neighbors, etc).
BTW, I saw nothing at all disrespectful in your post. It was a good question about some of your concerns. That is one of the things CN is here for.
As to the price of the scope. There are $10,000 setup that will not see the dsos as well as some of the inexpensive dobs. In general if you buy a decent scope, size means more than cost as far as what you can see. To use your comparison, a 10 dob will show more than a 5" SCT. However, you may see more with a 5" SCT. The 5" SCT is easier to transport and store than the 10" dob. If that means you spend more time using it, then you will see more with it. An often repeated truism is " the scope you use the most is the one you will see the most with." A 70mm refractor being used under the sky shows you more than a 30" dob setting in a garage.
-------------------- Wayne
80 mm refractor to 8" newt
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Darts
member
Reged: 02/13/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Redford, Mich
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Wayne, thank you for your input and words of encouragement. I've been doing more research and have more questions before I make the plunge, but I'll take it to the main beginners forum so I don't clutter this one up. However I will say that I agree with your advice about getting a scope I'll use the most, and after some reading, a realization that I live in a poor seeing area (5 mag if I'm lucky)I may not want a big Dob and might opt for a 6" C6R or C6R-GT refractor since most of my viewing would be done in the backyard. This scope seems to be pretty good as well if I choose to lug it out to darker skys. Thanks again.... now its back to the books (web) for me
-------------------- Meade 16" Light Bridge
Q70 Series 38, 32, 26mm
Televue 19mm Panoptic
Televue 17mm Ethos
Teleview 11 & 8mm Plossl
Televue 8-24 Zoom
7 X 35 Cheapy Binos
20X90 Oberwerk w/UA P-mount on Surveyor Tripod
Coronado PST
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sixela
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 10848
Loc: Boechout, Belgium
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Quote:
I live in a poor seeing area (5 mag if I'm lucky)
That's poor transparency, not poor seeing.
--------------------
400mm f/4.46 self made Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Orion Starblast (114mm f/4 reflector, Alt/Az)
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Star Hunter
member
Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 56
Loc: Tallmadge, Ohio
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How much benefit can be gained from upgrading a diagonal to one such as Tele Vue's Everbrite diagonal? Is it worth the $$?
-------------------- Rick
C9.25 on CG5GT w/ Stellarvue F60 Finder
Orion SVP 127mm Mak-Cass
90mm Bushnell Doorstop
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erik
telescope surgeon
   
Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 24255
Loc: Off Grid in Paradise (Big Isla...
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what are you using now? an inexpensive way to see if your diagonal is robbing light is to install a 2" extension tube so that an ep will reach focus without a diagonal. then you can compare views directly. even if your current diagonal has standard 89% reflectivity, it's questionable whether you could see a difference in brightness. but some of the better diagonals do have nice features, like compression rings instead of a setscrew...
-------------------- -Erik Wilcox
Homebuilt 16" Truss Dob
SV 80mm ED Nighthawk NG on M1 ALT/AZ
Nikon Prostaff 65mm spotter on Trekpod
Konusvue 20x80 binos/Peterson pipemount
Orion 10x50 binos
Homebuilt 80mm f/5 refractor
Mirador 60mm f/12 1960's refractor
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Star Hunter
member
Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 56
Loc: Tallmadge, Ohio
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Currently using the stock diagonal that came with my Orion.
-------------------- Rick
C9.25 on CG5GT w/ Stellarvue F60 Finder
Orion SVP 127mm Mak-Cass
90mm Bushnell Doorstop
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scopefreak
sage
 
Reged: 04/14/04
Posts: 464
Loc: Lowell MI
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Great article. I was just talking about this over the weekend at the East Coast Star Party in NC. I wish I had had a copy of this in hand to win my argument. Really great stuff!!!!
Kevin V.
-------------------- "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will know peace"
Astronomical League Member at Large
Member Norfolk Astronomical Society
Member Grand Rapids Amature Astronomical Association
Celestron 8" SCT
Orion Atlas w/SkyScan
ST80,The Cube w/GPS
Celestron 15X70
Canon 10D
A few REALLY good EP's
A few not so good
Dew Shields and Dew Heaters, Electric Focusers
Red Flash Lights, Every Star Atlas EVER Made,
Every Astronomy Related Text Ever Written,
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Albie
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 02/22/05
Posts: 3667
Loc: Alberta,Canada
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Great article.I am a newbie and am experiencing first hand what you are talking about.At first I had a difficult time seeing the Cassini division(if at all).Now using the same scope and ep I can clearly see it and I am seeing more planet detail.The same goes for the moon(craters inside of craters that are inside of craters)and Jupiter.I like to compare the eye training process to ear training.Being a bit of an audiophile I know that the more time spent listening always reveals more depth and detail as time goes on(dependant on equipment quality).Your ears need to train and the same goes for your eyes when it comes to viewing.Like myself alot of newbies get discouraged by their first views,they have high expectations.Patience and a bit of eye training will be rewarding.Again, great article!
-------------------- Starblast6
Stratus 24mm,Speers Waler 4.9mm 7.2mm and 9.4mm
Noble 10x28,Regal LX 8x42,Skymaster 15x70
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Albie
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 02/22/05
Posts: 3667
Loc: Alberta,Canada
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Quote:
Like myself alot of newbies get discouraged by their first views,they have high expectations.
I would like to add that I expected to see big big views of the planets and colour not black and white.But even with my unrealistic expectations there was and still is alot of "wow" going on.The more I use a scope the more I want to see,especially after seeing gas clouds(Orion).
-------------------- Starblast6
Stratus 24mm,Speers Waler 4.9mm 7.2mm and 9.4mm
Noble 10x28,Regal LX 8x42,Skymaster 15x70
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b1gred
Enginerd
   
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 15711
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
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The colors seen through a scope are subtle at best. With experience you'll see more and more. Just keep looking.
-------------------- "Dark Skies & Great Viewing"
RandyR / W0RDR
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch
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Albert
Super Member
Reged: 06/01/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Redwood City, CA
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I just noticed this thread. I thought I'd add a list of observing tips I put together some time ago.
1) Allow your eyes to adjust to the dark The obvious dont look at bright lights. Shield other lights. Wear sunglasses during the day and minimize the time spent in bright illumination.
2) Maintain your dark-adaptation Keep illumination as low as possible when consulting charts
3) Refrain from drinking alcohol
4) Get plenty of sleep Fat chance!
5) Relax You see less when your muscles are tensed. Sit down at the scope and find a comfortable position. Keep both eyes open - don't squint to hold one eye closed. Use an eyepatch to keep light from entering the "other" eye.
6) Use averted vision Lots of articles have been written on this topic. It is an acquired skill.
7) Increase the magnification Many people believe they should observe faint, extended objects at low power, i.e. use an exit pupil that matches the size of your fully-dilated pupil. For adults, this is usually between 5-7mm. Although an object is brighter at lower magnification, it isn't necessarily easiest to see. CONTRAST is more important than absolute brightness. You need to increase the signal-to-noise at the expense of losing some signal intensity. At increasingly higher magnifications, the brightness of the sky background decreases faster than brightness of the object - increasing contrast. I find I see more detail in galaxies using an exit pupil around 1.5mm. With exit pupils smaller than this, the brightness of the object falls below some critical threshold. Exit pupil of your telescope = aperture/magnification
8) Block out extraneous light Use a black hood to cover your head and drape it over the eyepiece so no other light enters your eye. Sometimes this traps moisture that can fog up the eyepiece. Alternative, use your hands to block extraneous light.
9) Place bright stars and other objects outside the f.o.v.
10) Use remote ocular technique Especially with wide-field eyepieces, your eye is receiving distracting light from the entire field of view. Back your eye away from the eyepiece so that you see a smaller field. At the same time, position the object within your averted vision "sweet spot".
11) Know where to look Printed finder charts and computer planetarium programs are often useful. A photographic image of the object and surrounding field is the best.
12) Keep your averted vision "sweet-spot" trained on the same position. For scopes that don't track, this means learning to move your eye at the same rate as the field moves. It helps to have a faint star or two nearby. This is a difficult skill to learn. Alternatively, use a scope with tracking so you can keep your eye at the same location.
13) Take your time. Wait for your eye-brain to integrate over some time.
14) Breathe through your nose. This minimizes warm, moist air condensing on a cold eyepiece.
15) Describe or draw what you see.
16) Return to the same area on another night.
17) Observe when objects are highest in the sky.
18) When looking for small objects at high magnification, wait for periods of best seeing.
Albert
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Demorcan
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Central Illinois
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I might disagree with #5. It is easier just to learn to keep both eyes open and alternate which one one you use with the eyepiece. This keep your eyes from getting tired and makes a long nights viewing easier. But there are enough other things to learn at the start of ones viewing life.
-------------------- Wayne
80 mm refractor to 8" newt
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Wayne posted a thread of great value to all. I can only supplement what he wrote with some vignettes from my observing experience.
Few of us come into contact with a truly dark sky unless we seek out a remote area. Concurrently, many people are so attuned to having some form of ambient light continuously available that they find themselves actually uncomfortably apprehensive when they do unexpectedly find themselves in the dark. Think of the ubiquitous streetlights, the proliferation of cell phone tower lights, porch lights, city glow, a myriad of LCD digital displays and the like.
Years ago, I used to conduct recreations of ghost shows and 19th century séances for entertainment around Halloween. Part of the preparation included making the effort to insure the room was impenetrable to ambient light by testing it in broad daylight and plugging remaining light leaks. Needless to say, the unwitting spectators were readily stunned when, by prearranged cue, a lone candle would go out in the séance chamber and they would instantly be plunged into total, abject darkness. Suddenly deprived of their primary sense of sight, their imaginations ran wild, intensifying whatever effects were manifested in the show, based on their memory banks of the familiar, filtered by their fears.
Back in August of 1995, I stayed at Paradise Lodge on Mt. Rainier. I awoke early to catch some Perseid meteors under an uncommonly pristine sky. In the wee hours, the only manmade sounds I heard were a jet flying over and a workers footsteps (walking across the parking lot). It impressed me how, under sensory deprivation, the human mind seeks to project meaning into what isnt there. And patterns: Seeking identification and order to enable categorizing into ones world view. Also, coming face to face with a largeness as vast and as overwhelming as an exceptionally dark sky stops me from adhering to purposes and activities of outer value. So, it takes mental and emotional preparation as well as visual practice to appreciate and feel at ease with a truly dark environment.
Every year I travel to a remote area in West Virginia, deep in the National Forest, for a week of viewing under truly dark skies. Until I started doing this, I had forgotten that certain deep sky objects like the Hercules Globular Cluster (M13), the Beehive (M44) and the Lagoon Nebula (M8) were easy naked eye targets, given a dark, clear sky. Each succeeding year, I am able to recover more detail of the majesty I remember from the dark sky of my youth. The ethereal Veil Nebula remained elusive to me until I observed it under the dark WV skies with the help of a UHC or OIII filter. Careful studying of its intricacy means that I know what to look for when seeking it out. Now, I can often resolve it under my suburban skies when Cygnus lies overhead. Multiply that by other observations.
Even certain daytime training can be of great value for you to develop your level of awareness for the subtle. When walking through a shady area during a sunny day do you take the time to look on the ground for a menagerie of white circlets of light? These manifestations of the solar disc created through the pinhole effect among the leaves in the trees are often in plain view, if only we make the effort to look for them.
Do you pay attention to atmospheric phenomena like sun dogs (parahelia), halos, solar pillars and circumzenith arcs? I marvel that, when pointing these out to people, I find they had been completely oblivious to these effects. When you fly on an airplane do you look out the window in search of the subtle? I often see the iridescent glory, with the planes shadow superimposed across it. Once (ca. 1997), a reader wrote out an excellent description of the glory (a doughnut shaped rainbow) and asked Marilyn vos Savant about it. The described effect apparently escaped her radar. Marilyn, in her column, called it, An Angel Kiss. Nonplussed, I wrote Marilyn about the glory and included references. Her office acknowledged receipt of my message, thanking me for the level of detail I provided. In vain, I searched for update in Marilyns future columns. Take heart, many people can afford to broaden their awareness of the subtle, even those we deem informed.
The above serves as a way to open your senses, hone your observational skills and deepen your appreciation of the phenomena about you.
Happy viewing!
Stardazer
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Well, for the past few weeks there has been nothing but clouds, mostly during the day and ALWAYS during the night. I saw something, regardless of the lousy clouds, that I have never seen before and something that made the clouds at least for a while ok.
Clouds were rolling in from about 3 p.m. on as usual. and at 4 were pretty heavy. I headed home early and almost left the road as I looked where the sun would normally be, obscured by clouds. It was a brillian neon pinkish/red sphere, perfectly observable at a comfortably level, hidden by the clouds. It was a truly amazing site.
For the next 30 minutes or so, the sun would be partially or wholly obscured, only to reappear in its neon glory. It didn't quite make up for the fact that I have nothing to view at night any more, but it was an amazing site. I can't believe I haven't seen this type of phenomenon before, but I haven't. I only wish I'd had a camera during my drive home so I could have captured it. by the time I got home, the clouds fully hid the sun and no more of the site was to be seen.
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Joad
Wordsmith
   
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 12864
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This is so good a post-article that I will simply add to it a small observation rather than start a thread of my own.
Having reached the stage of "advanced beginner," I am finally learning to appreciate something that it is hard to grasp when one is starting out. This is what is called "seeing." I always assumed that if the sky was clear and the wind was calm that that meant good seeing. But just last night, after I cooled down and collimated my SCT on a bright clear night in the mountains, I began the evening with some of the best lunar viewing that I've ever had. Saw one craterlet in Plato steadily and another winking on and off, and that's great for me. I took a break and came out later. This time the seeing was quite different. It was still clear and calm, but perhaps something was going on in the upper atmosphere because my lunar views were not nearly as good and were not as steady, even though the moon was nearer zenith (and, yes, I had the lens caps off!). I realize that I needn't contemplate throwing out my scope on clear nights of mediocre seeing, that it is the seeing conditions that have changed, not my scope. Just something else we learn along the way.
-------------------- 12.5 inch Portaball + Osypowski platform
LX10
Oberwerk BT100 45° binocular
Orion binoviewer + ScopeStuff extender (so it focuses at f/4.9)
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Gendo
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 12/12/05
Posts: 3231
Loc: Rexburg, ID
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Yes seeing is a big factor. I agree that even when it seems like seeing should be excellent, it's often not, but that doesn't stop me from viewing anyways.
I compared bad seeing to looking through water just under the boiling point. That's what it reminds me of anyways, and the cause is the same (convection).
Wayne points some great things out in his article. It's well done and a must read for all the newbies!!!
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debbie_5571
member
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 68
Loc: UK lincs
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thanks wayne for sharing that information
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Dan in San Diego
member
Reged: 02/06/06
Posts: 22
Loc: Ogden, UT
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Quote:
If you stay out until you can see well at night, the next time the brain remembers the first time, and switches quicker. Only slightly quicker the first time. But after a time, your night vision will come sooner.
Fascinating, but this brought up for me the same question as Bill in Flagstaff. Is there evidence to support actual faster chemical dark adaptation? I did a quick literature search, and suprisingly (to me), there does look to a fair body of evidence to support this. I didn't find any articles which answer the question directly, but they do seem to say that in many species, photoreceptor kinetics change with prolonged dark adaptation. This brings up for me questions like how living in San Diego with all of its light pollution affects the process. Or the fact that I never seem to have enough time to sleep, so don't spend as much time in the dark as many people :-) On a broader level, could this apply evolutionarily? Will light pollution teach our bodies, more and more, that dark adaptation isn't very useful and we might as well do away with it? Maybe millenia from now limiting visual magnitude will be 3 in perfectly dark skies. Can I use this as an argument to shoot out the streetlight next to my house?
Anyway, I enjoyed the post, and the point is well taken -- I should spend more time under the stars. Now I just need to consider how to get my wife to accept how important this is. . .
-------------------- Equipment: Eyes, Celestron 10x50s
Edited by Dan in San Diego (02/07/06 07:33 PM)
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Demorcan
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Central Illinois
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The best study I know was done by the military. During Desert Storm, the recon troops in Iraq who set the lasers each night (for the earlier version smart bombs) had some help with their night vision. Walking the streets at night in an enemy capital precluded the use of AVN7 goggles. Their was training and perhaps some chemical aids to help them since they had to operate in the dark. While it did not always help them to seperate enemy patrols from other people doing advance recon, they did get the job done. So, it worked to some degree. I am not sure at this time how to find this study. If you know somoeone who has done recon, perhaps they could point you in the right direction.
-------------------- Wayne
80 mm refractor to 8" newt
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RON
member
Reged: 03/07/06
Posts: 11
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nice 1 wayne good read
tips for wide f.o.v
nexstar 8i se helos 10x50 .. .. 20x40x 100 tv 16mm meade40mm .. ..26mm vixen 13mm new uk ron
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jaxter
member
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 88
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Good discussions here about the ocular constraints....my only addition would be to mention that many sites are perenially tough for observation. Living within a dozen miles of Chicago gives my eastern sky a useless haze at all times (filters don't help much) and a regional challenge (ie mostly passable-at-best atmo conditions and a winter sky that demands cooling the scope). However...by tracking various objects year-round, I can find them fast when I DO get a chance to camp out under clearer skies. The best trained eyes will suffer at sea level w/a 12"- astounding views can be had on a small elevation with a 5", depending on the site. Moreso, as mentioned, for DSO's than bright planets. Red flashlights...that's the best advice I can offer to newb's.
-------------------- 8"LX90LNT-UHTC/wedge (main scope, 'easily' carried)
APO66 w/Losmandy tail on LX90
Homemade Cass scope (20" or therabouts...)
LPI/DSI/Nikon D50/binocs/lenses, barlows, reducers, filters (o3, Ha, etc)
Slow-spinning 3m mercury mirror on order.
12" LightBridge dlux/replaced secondary (bad coatings!)
Seeking an 18-22" f/5-6 mirror. Wish me luck.
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Amoreau13
member
Reged: 11/06/05
Posts: 15
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Help!
I have had my 8" orion Dob for about 6 months now. I try and go out as often as I can, but I've probably used it about 10 times so far. My problem is that all I can find in the scope are "big" things. Obviously I have seen the moon, Mars, Saturn, some naked eye stars and the Orion Nebula. Other than that I cannot seem to find anything interesting. I have a star chart that I try to use to find other DSO's. I look at the chart and see that M51 is below the last star in the Big Dipper. Okay well how far below? And how far to the left or right? Is there an easier way? I kind of feel like I should've purchased an auto goto telescope because I'm getting discouraged. You can only look at Saturn for so long!
I live in a suburban area with fairly dark skies. I use a light pollution filter a lot of the time.
Any help would be appreciated!
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I have found that printing star charts (I use Starry Nights) to get the "correct" orientation of the constellations helps dramatically with locating the not-so-easy DSOs.
I printed charts last week (on the first clear night in 6-weeks) and was able to nab several DSOs around the Big Dipper using my 10" Dob. It was challenging, but the star chart (with proper orientation) help a whole bunch!
I think that Cartes du Ciel (FREE) will print similar charts.
Try it! You'll like it! 
Don
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dgs©
Postmaster
   
Reged: 03/29/04
Posts: 15042
Loc: West Monroe, Louisiana
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Amoreau13, you are an ideal candidate for a Telrad finder.
Here is a copy of my standard spiel on the subject:
If you are unfamiliar with the Telrad, it projects 3 circles (4°, 2°, & œ°) onto a piece of glass angled at 45° to the tube axis (like a Heads-Up Device), and you can adjust the brightness to suit dim stars. The calibrated circles aid in measuring angular distances from brighter 'guide' stars to the object you are trying to find. Check out these Telrad Charts for Messier Objects to see what it looks like looks like plotted on star charts and how useful it can be. I printed all of the charts, slipped them into plastic sleeves and put them in a ring binder to take outdoors. Just match the view in real life with the view on the charts, and you are there.  Also see this Reflex Finder Shootout for a comparison of 9 of the most popular of these type finders.
-------------------- - david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm
"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike
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jaxter
member
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 88
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Amoreau13- take off that filter, first. Do you have a finderscope? If not, get a small one and get it centered with your scope at lo power. Should make finding fuzzies a lot easier; just center where it ought to be in the finder then check the scope at lowest power. Any cluster is always fun in my book.....I prefer them to planets or fuzzies (ie nebulea or galaxies). Double Cluster, Beehive and Pleiades are always interesting. Just keeping the forum rolling, hoping you indeed get to 'see more'. What you/others will see naked-eye or in the finder will pale with even your lowest power on these examples. Fuzzies are for big scopes....sorry...anything under 10" and you'll be disappointed. You can 'detect' fuzzies w/a 8".....hopefully you can find them, get familiar w/where they are. There is no substitute for size. And don't forget to collimate.......faint objects suffer the most when things are out-of-align. Above all, don't give up. You are, to quote an Astronomy prof of mine, that one in a thousand people living who ever even looked thru a scope. You own one; learn more and share it as much as you can.......
-------------------- 8"LX90LNT-UHTC/wedge (main scope, 'easily' carried)
APO66 w/Losmandy tail on LX90
Homemade Cass scope (20" or therabouts...)
LPI/DSI/Nikon D50/binocs/lenses, barlows, reducers, filters (o3, Ha, etc)
Slow-spinning 3m mercury mirror on order.
12" LightBridge dlux/replaced secondary (bad coatings!)
Seeking an 18-22" f/5-6 mirror. Wish me luck.
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vegasmo
member
Reged: 07/20/06
Posts: 65
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
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Great post. Thanks for the advice.
-------------------- 12" Meade Lightbridge
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MicroFromage
member
Reged: 08/05/06
Posts: 54
Loc: France
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Fantastic thread, really. I'd add only two things ( it is possible I may have missed someone saying it already, I've skim read and just with that picked up some brilliant tips ).
1. Take your glasses off when viewing.
2. Take your contact lenses out.
(1) because at least with my eyesight ( short sight, astigmatism quite bad ) I get secondary ghost images through the telescope and the image is darker with glasses.
(2) because staring through and eyepiece makes the lens pop out ( gas permeable contacts ) as I found out last night.
-------------------- Now a guaranteed irony free zone.
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vegasmo
member
Reged: 07/20/06
Posts: 65
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
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Great article.
-------------------- 12" Meade Lightbridge
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Robert g
super member
Reged: 06/25/06
Posts: 104
Loc: Howell, NJ USA
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Great advice! Thanks for sharing this with all.
-------------------- Regards,
Robert g
-------------------------
- Deep Space Observer 10" Dob -
Tweaked & Flocked on ball bearing base.-
- Meade 114NT/500-Dob.
- Meade DS2080 AT
- Celestron Skymaster 15X70
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Kim Miau
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/17/06
Posts: 1177
Loc: Australian National University
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Now I just know that night observing experience is another important factor also.
-------------------- -Robin Lee
QHY CCD
My Astronomy Blog - http://www.astronomynotes.net
Meade 8" LX90 + LPI + QHY5 + Denk's Power x Switch S2 Diagonal
More equipments @ here
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Flavio Lemos
member
Reged: 08/08/06
Posts: 10
Loc: São Paulo, Brazil
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Amoreau13, One item that helped me a lot in finding objects was a green laser pointer. With that I can see exactly where my telescope is pointing and can compare with a star chart. Another thing that helps is a wide field eyepiece. I can find lots of interesting objects with my TV 85. With your 8" scope you can have lots of fun. Keep trying, soon you will find the way!
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Dan in San Diego
member
Reged: 02/06/06
Posts: 22
Loc: Ogden, UT
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My favorite thing about the green laser pointer is not that I can see more with its help, but that I can help others to see more with it. It's fantastic for pointing out constellations and other items to newbies (like myself).
Dan
-------------------- Equipment: Eyes, Celestron 10x50s
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Richards Beggins
member
Reged: 08/31/06
Posts: 85
Loc: Genova-Italy
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Wow...a very big article!!!
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Kim Miau
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/17/06
Posts: 1177
Loc: Australian National University
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Quote:
Wow...a very big article!!!
Indeed. This is a very nice thread and most of the beginners will benefit from this. This thread is undoubtedly useful for visual observers.
-------------------- -Robin Lee
QHY CCD
My Astronomy Blog - http://www.astronomynotes.net
Meade 8" LX90 + LPI + QHY5 + Denk's Power x Switch S2 Diagonal
More equipments @ here
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desertstars
Please stand by...
   
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34563
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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This thread has been added to the "Best Of" thread for the Beginner's Forum.
-------------------- Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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dgs©
Postmaster
   
Reged: 03/29/04
Posts: 15042
Loc: West Monroe, Louisiana
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Scared me when I saw it wasn't 'pinned' at the top anymore. This one is definitely one that doesn't need to get lost.
-------------------- - david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm
"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike
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desertstars
Please stand by...
   
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34563
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Oh, it won't.
But let this be a lesson. We have the "Best Of" thread for a very good reason. So much good stuff appears in the Beginners Forum that if we pinned all of it, indefinitely, you'd have to go three or four pages into the forum to find new posts!
-------------------- Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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lotus1
sage
Reged: 12/11/06
Posts: 246
Loc: PALM COAST FL USA
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nice info. I've been training my eye by sketching. I made a post a few days ago on how I found this to be great. I feel more newbies should try this.
-------------------- Celestron SE 8 SCT
SWAN eyepieces 9 15 20 25 33 40mm
9mm LV
Celestron Omni 2x barlow
Celestron filters & LPR
Tele Vue bandmates (nep/oxy lll)
"I find your lack of faith, disturbing".
-Darth Vader-
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Kiwiastronomer
journeyman
Reged: 06/25/08
Posts: 5
Loc: New Zealand
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I have just posted a query re eyes seeing colour and finding this goes a long way to answering that query. Great article. Thanks, Don.
-------------------- The best accessory for any scope is experienced eyes. Demorcan
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croaky
super member
Reged: 03/21/07
Posts: 181
Loc: Bangalore, India
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What an awesome post! Thanks for sharing this Wayne! I especially liked your follow-up advice that one should relish their first views as much as they can. The 1st time I saw Jupiter with four of its moons is something I'll cherish all my life. Though this view was only through a 10x50 bino, and Jupiter was just a bright blob, what made the view very special for me were the four pinpoints around it - truly unforgetable...
-------------------- Pradeep
To truly see, one must close one's eyes.
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Dragonwatcher
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 01/21/08
Posts: 600
Loc: Kirkland, WA
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Very helpful thread. I was just getting ready to post a question about viewing Jupiter when I read the lead article and replies. I live in the Seattle area with bad light pollution and unsteady skies. I have been looking at Jupiter which is pretty low in the sky so I am looking through a lot of wavering, light-polluted atmosphere. But I have a high quality Stellarvue triplet 80mm telescope with excellent eyepieces (Radians, Naglers, TMB planetaries, Siebert Starsplitters, etc.) I expected to see Jupiter more clearly and I was going to ask if the problem was with my telescope or the seeing conditions. I can see the moons clearly but all I see on Jupiter are two indistinct bands that come and go - like faint stars, I see them best out of peripheral vision rather than hard staring. I read about others who see tremendous detail on Jupiter with small telescopes, so I was trying to decide why I don't. Now, I think it is a combination of poor conditions and my needing more patience and observing experience. I guess I need to to go out and observe more, training my eyes and being ready for those fleeting moments of more clear seeing.
-------------------- Jackie
TMB 92L
SV70ED for gragNrun
Orion 120ST
Benro C-357 tripod/Microstar mount
Quarter Hitch & Gitzo GT5531S
8SE mount/tripod for refractor use
Ethoses, Pentaxes, BGOs, Naglers, Pans, Sieberts, etc
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Protheus
Vaguely offended
   
Reged: 09/01/07
Posts: 5067
Loc: Illinois, US
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Quote:
Now, I think it is a combination of poor conditions and my needing more patience and observing experience. I guess I need to to go out and observe more, training my eyes and being ready for those fleeting moments of more clear seeing.
Also try varying the magnification. You will find that depending on the current conditions, there will be a different sweet spot for high contrast. A slightly different eyepiece may surprise you.
Chris
-------------------- "To tread the sharp edge of a sword;
to run on smooth-frozen ice,
one needs no footsteps to follow..."
"Well, people sometimes ask me 'how did you get involved in astronomy?' I said 'I got born, what's your problem?'" -- John Dobson
"In discussing the large-scale structure of the cosmos, astronomers sometimes say that space is curved, or that the universe is finite but unbounded. Whatever are they talking about?" -- Carl Sagan
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shivaram
super member
Reged: 11/26/08
Posts: 124
Loc: Bangalore, India.
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Hello Wayne,
Are you into NLP by any chance?
-------------------- SRK
3" SkyWatcher SK909EQ2.
25mm & 10mm Super EPs.
10x50 Bushnell.
15x50 Sotem.
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shivaram
super member
Reged: 11/26/08
Posts: 124
Loc: Bangalore, India.
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This article was very useful and powerful as well!
Thanks, Wayne!
-------------------- SRK
3" SkyWatcher SK909EQ2.
25mm & 10mm Super EPs.
10x50 Bushnell.
15x50 Sotem.
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Alniter
member
Reged: 12/27/08
Posts: 27
Loc: Orlando, FL
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Thanks, Wayne. Your very informative post was one of the first things I saw on my first day here, just 24 hours after using my first scope for the first time. Couldn't have been more timely as my picture is in the dictionary under "newbie". Thanks again.
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senske
sage
Reged: 01/10/09
Posts: 360
Loc: Spokane, WA
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Did Galileo have aperture fever? Probably not. He could see pretty well with his little homemade telescope, apparently. This post really got me thinking, because I've used a 5" reflector twice now and I already want a 12" or 16" telescope. Hmm. Maybe I just need to get that "visual purple" flowing. 
Thanks for the advice.
-------------------- Andrew
Orion SkyQuest XT10 Intelliscope with Orion 9x50 and Telrad Finders
Orion WorldView 10x50 Binoculars
Celestron NexStar 8 SE with GSO 8x50 and Red Dot Finders
Galileoscope
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mdebellis
super member
Reged: 12/22/08
Posts: 171
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What a thoughtful and amazing post. I can totally relate as I am very much a newbie and recently procured a 5" SCT. Much to my delight, my first views of Saturn were amazing and Im certain I will never forget it. I will never forget how my heart started pounding and how I started muttering to myself life a nut when I first saw the rungs (on edge at thsi time). However, the more I looked through the EP (albeit shivering in the sub zero temps in NY), the more detail I saw and I immediately learned the lesson that more detail can be seen via patience and quiet, deliberate viewing. I cant wait for the temps to moderate so I can really spend some quality time in the EP and discover more details.
Best regards, Mark
-------------------- Nexstar 8SE
40mm, 25mm, 15mm, 9mm EP's
Celestron Ultima 2x barlow
Astrozap Dew Shield
Celestron Power Tank
Westchester County, NY USA
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myersbw
member
Reged: 04/30/09
Posts: 10
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This post explained a lot, but...even more...it provides an incentive to push yourself to go out & observe more...lol, as if we needed it! :-) Thanks for the detail....
Brad
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MikeM6
member
Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 63
Loc: NW Illinois
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This was an incredible post. I always thought it was my imagination. Teaching the brain to star-gaze - what a concept
-------------------- Mike
Orion XT8
Orion 90mm Refractor
Meade ETX-80AT-TC
10X50 Binoculars
Mk1 Eyeball
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dVnt
member
Reged: 08/31/09
Posts: 29
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Does working with computers 10 hours a day have a lasting or cumulative effect on my dark adaptation?
...I have a feeling I already know the answer.
-------------------- Zhumell Z8 Deluxe Dobsonian Reflector
Zhumell 9mm 1.25" EP, Zhumell 30mm WV 2" EP
GSO 2X Barlow
Zhumell 2" Filter Kit (Skyglow, UHC, O-III, Variable Polarity)
Baader Planetarium 2" to 1.25" EP Adapter
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Tim A.
sage
Reged: 09/19/07
Posts: 236
Loc: 40 30'N 105 3'W
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Quote:
Does working with computers 10 hours a day have a lasting or cumulative effect on my dark adaptation?
I doubt it ... unless you're working all night. 
Your eyes/brain/mind will definitely improve with observing time, regardless of your occupation.
It's worth noting that no matter what site you're at or what optics you use, there are challenges to test your eye. If you're using 10x50 binoculars under heavy light pollution, the challenging targets are naturally bigger and brighter than if you're under pristine skies with a 25" Dob.
But the nature of the challenge is the same regardless.
The great thing is that by training your eye to see, let's say M104, with a small aperture or under poor conditions, you're setting the stage for a mind-boggling experience when you ultimately get to see the Sombrero Galaxy from a dark site with a bigger instrument!
So yeah, your site is bad and humidity is high. Go ahead and find what you can find, see what you can see. It'll be good. And then when you get to that dark site on a dry, moonless night, you'll savor the experience more fully than you possibly could otherwise.
Like they say, it's all good. 
-- Tim Colorado
--------------------
Starbuckets 12.5" Dob
Celestron CPC800
Celestron CR-150 HD on CG5-GT
Galileoscope
Oberwerk Deluxe II 20x80 & Ultra 10x50
Celestron Regal LX 8x42
Bio-binoculars 1x6
"Me? Crazy? Oh, yeah. Crazy like an ox!"
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