Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu.... uh, User

Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

Mauro Da Lio
sage


Reged: 09/12/04
Posts: 218
Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour?
      11/25/07 03:00 PM

Quote:


I play the devil's advocate, here, because I enjoy the conversation and I have read extensively on this subject, but why do all the theories of vision, related to the visibility of objects in a telescope, ignore the physical number of photons gathered by the larger aperture? Why isn't the image of an extended object simply easier to see in the larger scope because the larger scope gathers more light? Raise the intensity of the light level, and we all see more and better.
The Moon is bright in a small scope, but it is a LOT brighter in a big scope. At double the power of a scope 1/2 the size, the brightness per unit area calculates to be the same. Yet, the image is brighter. Period. It's easy to calculate why a stellar point is brighter, but not so easy to understand why an extended object like the Moon is brighter. The size of the image is not the explanation that works. Image intensity is simply higher.





If you read the link to Tony Flander's page http://mysite.verizon.net/vze55p46/id18.html there are at least three kind of "brightness". Confusing them is fatal.
1) There is the total integrated brightness. The total amount of light collected by the scope. This increrases proportionally to the area of the collecting mirror or lens. In pointwise sources this is the factor that primarily determine visibility (I write primarily because, besides the amount of collected light there also is a cognitive aspecte, mainly influenced by backrgound contrast which make easiker to detect points against darker background, and that is why limiting magnitude increases with magnification, as well explained by a paper of Shaefler).
2) There i surfece brightness, that is the intensity per unit area of an extende object. It is the amount of collected light divided the apparent area. If you double the scope diameter and double the magnification you get 4 tomes the light divide four times the area and the surface brightness is the same (se "lowering rthe threshodls by bill ferris). Thi is the physical quantity that stimulate cones and rods. Each cone provides the same signal to the same surface brightness regardless of the fact that other cones may see the same source (if the area is large many cones respond if it is small lesser cones respond).
3) There is the "subjective" perception of brightness. This is where cognitive processes take place. If many cones/rod are simultaneously stimulated (that is you are looking a big area) the the area is further processed by the visual cortex in the barin and "recognized". This is the fundamental reason why we see better in bigger scopes (same brightness but bigger images, see again clark or ferris documents for a simple explanations, or you may search the visula neuro scientific literature for more rigorous frameworks). A surface twice the area is perceived as "brighter" (subjectively) because a "recognized" entity holds informaion of both its intrinsic surface brightnes and of its overall importance (or totasl brightness). That is why the moon appears brighter in a bigger scope even if the exit pupil is the same. Something similar happens for color recogntion. You need "real" signals from cones (for real colors). But that is not enough. You need the colour patch to be large enough (or the total brightness of the patch to bi bigger than a given amount - this is a variation of the concepts expressed by Clark about the optimal magnification and the detection of shapes). You may do a simple test: print two squares, the same color and lightness bou one larger that the other and look at them at distance. The larger is easier to detect (also its color), but the color is the same, the signal form cones is the same.

Edited by Mauro Da Lio (11/25/07 03:14 PM)

Post Extras Print Post   Remind Me!     Notify Moderator

Entire thread
Subject Posted by Posted on
* Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? 15x70 11/15/04 03:35 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   11/24/07 10:15 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Astroguy   01/04/05 08:09 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? fxxm747   01/05/05 05:15 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? fxxm747   01/05/05 05:25 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? sixela   01/05/05 11:46 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? fxxm747   01/05/05 07:39 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   01/05/05 06:47 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? sixela   01/05/05 11:50 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   11/16/04 06:58 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? i_sairanen   11/17/04 03:07 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? semiosteve   12/11/07 11:08 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/11/07 05:35 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? johnfdean   11/24/07 04:36 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/24/07 04:56 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   11/25/07 12:46 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/25/07 11:54 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   11/25/07 01:04 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/25/07 03:00 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   11/25/07 07:53 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/25/07 01:24 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Dave MitskyModerator   11/19/04 12:18 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Barry Fernelius   11/19/04 12:26 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? BillFerris   11/19/04 11:26 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Dave MitskyModerator   11/19/04 11:00 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Anonymous   11/23/04 09:59 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? dlapoint   11/25/04 01:29 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   11/25/04 11:19 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Scott BeithAdministrator   11/26/04 12:55 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? fxxm747   01/04/05 02:13 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? sixela   01/04/05 05:29 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   01/04/05 06:32 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Anonymous   11/18/04 09:18 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? markf   11/18/04 05:23 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Daniel Mounsey   11/18/04 05:52 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? jwaldo   11/17/04 03:55 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Ptarmigan   01/08/05 07:19 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Diego   01/10/05 09:36 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   01/10/05 06:29 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/24/07 06:33 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mr. Bill   11/25/07 11:56 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? famtta   11/25/07 07:22 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mr. Bill   11/26/07 11:04 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/25/07 02:35 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   11/25/07 07:42 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/26/07 05:00 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   11/26/07 06:01 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/27/07 07:31 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   11/27/07 04:07 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/30/07 05:32 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Seattle Brian   11/30/07 06:58 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Darenwh   12/01/07 02:49 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/01/07 02:25 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/01/07 05:01 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/02/07 02:10 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/02/07 05:36 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/03/07 01:42 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/05/07 04:37 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/03/07 09:08 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? ph2   12/02/07 10:09 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/02/07 11:03 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   12/02/07 11:49 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/02/07 01:36 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   12/02/07 06:03 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/03/07 02:52 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   12/03/07 04:57 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/04/07 03:13 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? sixela   12/04/07 03:41 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/04/07 03:53 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? sixela   12/05/07 03:32 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   12/04/07 01:22 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/05/07 04:14 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/05/07 04:59 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   12/05/07 08:22 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/06/07 06:44 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? *DELETED* Mauro Da Lio   12/05/07 04:15 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? BillFerris   12/06/07 09:02 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/06/07 04:21 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? jhors   12/06/07 05:51 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/08/07 11:18 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/08/07 02:47 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/08/07 04:34 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/10/07 01:36 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/11/07 10:42 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/11/07 05:59 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/12/07 03:59 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/12/07 07:17 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/13/07 04:15 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/14/07 03:30 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/14/07 05:27 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/14/07 06:08 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/14/07 05:08 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/14/07 05:54 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/14/07 09:31 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/15/07 03:25 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/15/07 06:11 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/15/07 02:29 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/16/07 04:27 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/16/07 08:36 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/24/07 09:27 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/16/07 06:06 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/17/07 01:43 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/17/07 02:18 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/23/07 06:03 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   12/15/07 10:41 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/15/07 11:59 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/12/07 09:53 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/13/07 05:45 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   12/13/07 12:57 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/13/07 04:02 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/08/07 05:06 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mr. Bill   12/06/07 11:33 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/05/07 10:21 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/04/07 03:12 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   12/03/07 05:01 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/04/07 12:46 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/01/07 07:44 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/28/07 03:47 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   11/28/07 07:08 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/30/07 04:59 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/29/07 03:36 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mr. Bill   11/29/07 04:41 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   11/30/07 05:35 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Kaizu   11/30/07 02:32 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? David Knisely   12/01/07 12:56 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/30/07 03:23 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Kaizu   11/30/07 04:50 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/29/07 06:05 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   11/29/07 04:39 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/29/07 06:26 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/29/07 06:21 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   11/29/07 08:41 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/30/07 03:17 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mr. Bill   11/29/07 11:30 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? palsing   12/01/07 11:26 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   12/02/07 05:08 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? galaxyman   12/02/07 12:27 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? palsing   12/02/07 01:34 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/29/07 06:13 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/29/07 05:41 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/29/07 03:15 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mr. Bill   11/27/07 04:41 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mr. Bill   11/27/07 11:16 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mauro Da Lio   11/27/07 03:27 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mr. Bill   11/26/07 07:27 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? galaxyman   11/27/07 12:29 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mr. Bill   11/26/07 05:46 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Mr. Bill   11/25/07 06:49 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? CraigC   01/15/05 01:49 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Diego   01/10/05 08:12 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   01/11/05 01:03 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Diego   01/12/05 10:45 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? jmoore   01/15/05 10:28 AM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Starman1   01/15/05 02:08 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? jmoore   01/17/05 02:27 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour? Amalia   01/17/05 05:09 PM
. * Re: Is it possible to see the nebula with colour?