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4" Apochromatic Hyper Shootout

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#1 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 10:49 AM

Ridwan, June and myself spent the better portion of an evening testing these OTA's until about 2am on Saturn and star clusters. We conducted star tests, etc. I'm not here to post the results as they will be presented in a review for Korovski Enterprises, more on that later. I have a number of other 4" apos on the way to add to the batch. My goal is to help remove the stigma regarding chromatic abberation from the results of these tests. The differences were profound from our observing bed, one mile from the ocean under excellent seeing. Ridwan has no bias and I think even he has a clearer respect for the matter. I can assure you that the best color correction does not always dictate which instrument will yield the highest contrast or sharpness as there are a number of variables regarding the matter. More on that shortly. I'd like to thank June and Ridwan for assisting me in this upcoming review.

From right to left. TV102IIS, WO/TEC, TAK TSA102, Orion 100ED, TV NP101, Vixen 103ED.

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#2 Tom T

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 10:51 AM

What, no FS102?
 

#3 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 10:51 AM

By the way Ridwan, the WO/TMB just arrived yesterday, so we'll be viewing real shortly.

Best!
 

#4 dvb

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 11:02 AM

Who is "Korovski Enterprises"? I didn't find anything on Google.
 

#5 Tom T

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 11:18 AM

Sounds like I've used most of those - some nice glass. You should get your hands on a TMB 105/650 and 100/800 as well if you can.

I do wish you had an FS102 tho. It would be interesting to see how the TSA stacks up. I haven't seen the TSA yet.

T
 

#6 pollux

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 11:37 AM

How come the Vixen 103 look so "fat" and the orion looks so "skinny" :question:
 

#7 Greg Morrison

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 12:16 PM

"What, no FS102?"

I have to agree. This is very popular scope, that many folks have used and owned, so it would provide a useful reference point for many. It is also the doublet apochromat that is usually referenced in comparison to triplet apochromats. I hope one is ultimately rounded up for the shootout.
 

#8 Scott Beith

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 12:26 PM

SV102 would be a nice addition as well. ;)
 

#9 Refractor6

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 12:29 PM

"What, no FS102?"

I have to agree. This is very popular scope, that many folks have used and owned, so it would provide a useful reference point for many. It is also the doublet apochromat that is usually referenced in comparison to triplet apochromats. I hope one is ultimately rounded up for the shootout.


Yes add the fine Tak FS-102 to the mix PLEASE!.


-------------------

Stan

Takahashi FS-102 NSV
Antares 152 f/8 prototype
Antares 152 f/6.5
Antares 127 f/6.45 prototype
Orion 9x63 mini giants
Pentax 20x60 PCF WP
 

#10 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 01:07 PM

I have a number of other 4" apos on the way to add to the batch.


I already have an FS102 added to the batch. I wouldn't do the review without it.
 

#11 Rich N

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 01:08 PM

Good luck, Daniel! Hope you have excellent seeing and clear skies.

Rich
 

#12 stefsaber

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 01:12 PM

So when would the review be available?
 

#13 ABC

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 02:18 PM

The tops of 4" apos, TMB 100/800 and Zeiss APQ 100/1000, should also be added. There will be a huge difference in performance, compared to the others...
 

#14 Greg Morrison

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 02:27 PM

"The tops of 4" apos, TMB 100/800 and Zeiss APQ 100/1000, should also be added. There will be a huge difference in performance, compared to the others..."

What do you mean when you say "huge difference" in performance? I've looked through a number of high end 4" apos and they've all been pretty similar in performance. It takes a good deal of hair splitting (and superb to excellent seeing) before any differences emerge in my experience.
 

#15 William1956

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 02:32 PM

Post deleted by William1956
 

#16 Clive Gibbons

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 02:40 PM

My goal is to help remove the stigma regarding chromatic abberation from the results of these tests. The differences were profound from our observing bed, one mile from the ocean under excellent seeing... I can assure you that the best color correction does not always dictate which instrument will yield the highest contrast or sharpness as there are a number of variables regarding the matter.


Hi Daniel.
Based on what you're saying, the jist of it seems that you experienced scopes with very high color correction, but other problems, as well as scopes with more color, but greater contrast and sharpness.

Looking forward to the review!
 

#17 echan

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 02:51 PM

I absolutely agree with what you said. There will be differences, but by no means drastic. I've done my own personal shootout between the TSA102, FS102, FCT100, TV102, SV105, Traveler. A 4" apo is a 4" apo. Differences to the discerning eye? YES, but not so much. I've viewed through my friend's APQ100/1000 & APQ100/640. They're the best in the 4" class, but will not "blow away" any of the other aforementioned classmates.

That said, Daniel's right when saying color correction isn't everything. I'm sure Tom Trusock agrees here too. There's too many other factors behind performance at the eyepiece to chalk everything to color correction. I had the TV102 on one side of the Giro and the Traveler on the other side; Mars was the target during the 2003 opposition. No difference at the eyepiece at all. In fact, I liked the TV102 better because it was holding focus better than the Traveler as the seeing came and went. This I chalk up to the F/L difference.

-Evan
 

#18 Mattbtn

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 03:19 PM

I don't believe that for a second. The differences between these scopes will be very subtle. A 4" apo is a 4" apo.
Bill


I have to disagree. I thought the same thing on 3" APO's until someone who had done a direct comparison chimed in. Perhaps 4" APO's are different, but I think one should keep an open mind and accept that the differences might be pretty significant.

I really look forward to reading this review,

Clear skies!
 

#19 ABC

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 03:54 PM

[quote
What do you mean when you say "huge difference" in performance? I've looked through a number of high end 4" apos and they've all been pretty similar in performance. It takes a good deal of hair splitting (and superb to excellent seeing) before any differences emerge in my experience. [/quote]

OK, surely you´re right.
But for me as a star splitter, "huge difference" means i.e. going beyond the Dawes limit (i.e. last year I could see a clear split of lambda Cygni, sep 0.9", in my friend´s APQ 100/1000 that was invisible even in my 178 f9 ED side by side...). I agree, the differences on the planets and DSO might be much more negligible in a 4" highend apo shootout.
 

#20 THESKY

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 04:41 PM

Excellent Daniel . . . call me whenever you have the chance . . .
 

#21 Greg Morrison

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 04:44 PM

Thanks. That lends some context to your statement. I wonder if your result speaks more to the quality of the Meade doublet rather than the APQ. I'm not a double star observer though. I wonder if anyone else has accomplished this with 4" of aperture.
 

#22 rcg

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 08:31 PM

If you need to cheaply dispose of the test scopes or just have to get them off your hands keep me in mind. :jump: Seriously though can't wait for your results.
 

#23 spaceydee

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 08:45 PM

Sounds like a fun review. Also sounds like it would be very time consuming to do.
 

#24 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 08:52 PM

[quote name="ABC"][quote
What do you mean when you say "huge difference" in performance? I've looked through a number of high end 4" apos and they've all been pretty similar in performance. It takes a good deal of hair splitting (and superb to excellent seeing) before any differences emerge in my experience. [/quote]

OK, surely you´re right.
But for me as a star splitter, "huge difference" means i.e. going beyond the Dawes limit (i.e. last year I could see a clear split of lambda Cygni, sep 0.9", in my friend´s APQ 100/1000 that was invisible even in my 178 f9 ED side by side...). I agree, the differences on the planets and DSO might be much more negligible in a 4" highend apo shootout. [/quote]

Christian,
I 100% agree with your comments. Purists really do appreciate the difference!
 

#25 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 08:54 PM

By the way, the differences were huge during our tests. Seeing here is great!

Best!
 


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