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Nagler-like performance...

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#1 Bob Myler

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 08:28 AM

Are ther ANY handheld binoculars out there capable of producing pinpoint stars at the field edge? If not, - regardless of objective diameter, power, eye relief, FOV, etc; - what's currently available out there that comes closest?

#2 Mark9473

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 02:45 PM

Fujinon 10x50 is the closest I've seen personally. Not that I have a nagler eyepiece for my scope though...

#3 gatorengineer

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 02:48 PM


Hands down Nikon 7x50 Prostars..... The Fujis are great, but cant touch the prostars, I have both.....

#4 Rich N

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 02:58 PM

I don't know of any that give 82 deg apparent fields of view and pin point stars to the edge of the field.

The Nikon SEs give very good edge performance. The Zeiss 10x42FL gives surprisingly good edge performance for a relatively wide apparent field.

Rich

#5 KennyJ

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 03:05 PM

Bob ,

You opted to choose " Nagler " as a yardstick in the heading , but then went on to mention that Field of View was unimportant .

Are you necessarily trying to find out if there are ny binoculars that have 82 degree or wider AFOV eyepieces which are well corrected to the very edge ?

if that is the case , I think you are going to be disappointed .

If not , and you are just wanting to find binoculars with pin - point stars to the edge , regardless of AFOV , then that is another question .

Not that there are many , to my knowledge , even with AFOVs more comparable to Radians or even Plossls .

On the other hand , if F.O.V , eye relief and objective diameters are irrelevent to you , you could try masking down the objectives of some very good 50mm binoculars , to say 35mm , ( to increase f.ratio ) and fit washers to reduce eye relief , but also to " cut - out " the outer 20% of the field of view ( hiding the rubbish , as I've put it before ) by effectively creating a new , narrower field stop .

That way , you " could " end up with something like a 10 x 35 with a 4 degree TFOV with pin - point stars to the very edge !

Regards
Kenny

#6 EdZ

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 03:28 PM

I'll need to add my new Prostars to the database. They are sharp, but not yet measured.

The best of the best that I've measured
Fujinon FMT-SX 16x70
Pentax PCF WP 16x60
Nikon SE 12x50
Fujinon FMT-SX 10x70
Fujinon FMT-SX 10x50
Celestron Regal 8x42 Roof
Nikon SE 8x32
Oberwerk Mariner 7x50

In the above group, at the very edge, the finest is the Nikon SE 12x50

5% to 10% in from the edge, the best, in this order, are the Celestron Regal 8x42 Roof, Nikon SE 12x50, Nikon SE 8x32, Fujinon FMT-SX 10x50. The Fujinon FMT-SX10x50 do it with an astonishing 70° Afov, the FMT-SX 16x70 with an Afov=65°.


None of the above even come close to these combos
Oberwerk BT100 - 20TV pl
Oberwerk BT100 - 14 Radian
Oberwerk BT100 - 12.5 UO or

In the BT100, with the 14mm Radian, I observed a 5 arcsec double star split even as it drifted off the very edge of the field stop, a total edge aberration only 1/3rd that of the Nikon SE.

#7 Bob Myler

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 05:07 PM

Great answers, thanks guys.

#8 ronharper

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 10:57 PM

The answers are all very good. My best edge corrected bino is the Fujinon 10x50. I'd love to try a Prostar some day.

But, FWIW, I'd say in a "hand-held" binocular, this is not a very important quality. Why strain your eye to look at the edge of the field, when you can swing the binocular by hand to center the thing of interest? A large "sweet spot" perhaps 20 degrees, of really sharp focus, is necessary to please my eye. But there are always trade-offs in binocular optics, and I'd prefer killer sharpness and contrast in the middle to pinpoint stars at the edge where I never look.
Ron

#9 EdZ

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 12:22 AM

Well having said this earlier

I'll need to add my new Prostars to the database. They are sharp, but not yet measured.


and having now spent the evening out with several instruments, including the Nikon Prostar 7x50, I must now completely revise everything I wrote earlier.

The Nikon Prostar 7x50 has BY FAR the finest (least) edge distortion of any binocular I have ever held in my hands. And not by just a small amount, but by leaps and bounds. In fact, edge distortion seems to be nearly absent.

The best of the best that I've measured
Nikon ProStar 7x50
then
Fujinon FMT-SX 16x70
Pentax PCF WP 16x60
Nikon SE 12x50
Fujinon FMT-SX 10x70
Fujinon FMT-SX 10x50
Celestron Regal 8x42 Roof
Nikon SE 8x32
Oberwerk Mariner 7x50

In the above group, at the very edge, the finest is the Nikon ProStar 7x50, the next closest, the Nikon SE 12x50, has three times or more edge distortion.

5% to 10% in from the edge, the best, in this order, are the Nikon ProStar 7x50, then following a distant second with three to four times the distortion, the Celestron Regal 8x42 Roof, then the Nikon SE 12x50, Nikon SE 8x32, Fujinon FMT-SX 10x50. The Fujinon FMT-SX10x50 do it with an astonishing 70° Afov, the FMT-SX 16x70 with an Afov=65°. But the very fine Fujinon 10x50, at 90% out in the field, have 5 times the distortion as that measured in the Nikon Prostar.


Only the Prostar 7x50 come close to these combos
Oberwerk BT100 - 20TV pl
Oberwerk BT100 - 14 Radian
Oberwerk BT100 - 12.5 UO or

In the BT100, with the 14mm Radian at 44x, I observed a 5 arcsec double star split even as it drifted off the very edge of the field stop, a total edge aberration only 1/3rd that of the Nikon SE.

In the Nikon Prostar 7x50, I used my usual 62 arcsecond pair of stars to see where it would distort from view near the edge. It never did. I could so easily see the pair Nu Draco, even at the edge of field stop, that I would estimate total aberration at the edges perhaps only 15-20 arcsec, if that. No other fixed power binocular that I've used has ever done that. So, the Prostar gives a 7.5° field of view with distortion nearly absent, for the widest, most aberration free field of view I've ever seen in any binocular.



edz

#10 BillC

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 12:54 AM

Hummm!? 'Seems I've heard that before! :bawling: :bawling: :crazy: :crazy: :smirk: :smirk: :grin: :grin: :jump: :jump: :jump: :jump:

Bill

#11 John F

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 01:28 AM

Ed,

Congradulations on getting a pair of the Prostars. As a binocular connosisseur I suspect that you'll fall in love with them. It is too bad that their power is only 7x and that they have such a bright exit pupil (i.e., 7.14mm) as that limits their utility for astronomy unless you get to use them at a place like Baxter State Park in Maine where sky gets really dark at night. Nevertheless, despite their size and weight they're so *BLEEP* good you'll look for opportunities to use them whenever you can.

The Nikon 10x70 Astroluxe is in the same league as the 7x50s quality wise but are generally more useful for astronomy because their magnification and aperture advantages. Even at dark sky sites I use them a lot more than the Prostars for those very reasons.

Of all the other binoculars that I've tried one other that stands out for the quality of its edge performance is the Zeiss 15x60 B/GATs. And that's especially impressive given that they're a wide field model (i.e., 65-degree AFOV) unlike the two Nikon models mentioned above that have AFOVs in the 50-degree range.

John Finnan

#12 BobinKy

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 05:27 AM

EdZ wrote:

The Nikon Prostar 7x50 has BY FAR the finest (least) edge distortion of any binocular I have ever held in my hands. And not by just a small amount, but by leaps and bounds. In fact, edge distortion seems to be nearly absent.

The best of the best that I've measured
Nikon ProStar 7x50
then
Fujinon FMT-SX 16x70
Pentax PCF WP 16x60
Nikon SE 12x50
Fujinon FMT-SX 10x70
Fujinon FMT-SX 10x50
Celestron Regal 8x42 Roof
Nikon SE 8x32
Oberwerk Mariner 7x50



Hmmm. . . As I look over the models on my shelf, I wonder how the Fujinon FMT-SX 7x50 (porro) and the Pentax DCF ED 10x50 (roof) compare to this list?

Does anybody have any thoughts?

#13 Rich N

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 12:05 PM

Hi Ed,

Congratulations on the Nikon ProStar 7x50!

How much eye relief do they have?

All the best,
Rich

#14 EdZ

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 12:24 PM

Hi Ed,

Congratulations on the Nikon ProStar 7x50!

How much eye relief do they have?

All the best,
Rich


Enough for me to use them with my glasses on. I'm tight to the eyepieces, but not smashed up against them, and I can still see the entire fov.

edz

#15 Rich N

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 12:29 PM

Neat! That's very encouraging. Better than expected.

Thanks, Ed!

Rich

#16 BillC

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 12:57 PM

Just about everything about the Prostar is "better than expected."

Cheers,

Bill

#17 BillC

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 01:02 PM

P.S. On EdZ's Prostar, the collimator reticles are SUPERIMPOSED! And when he is pushing up daisies, they will probably still be within a fraction of MilSpec.

That's actually not very kind of him. He should contribute to collimation threads, too! But then, on the Prostar, he will probably NEVER have to. That's a shame; some people think collimation screws are a feature.

Cheers,

Bill

#18 EdZ

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 01:17 PM

and BillC would know my Prostar, very well indeed.

#19 Wes James

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 02:05 PM

Well, I see who beat me to them... I figured that, EdZ- when I saw you had gotten a pair-- and I never heard back from the person who was selling them! Though I must must add, if anybody deserved to get that particular pair, it would have been you! Mebbe I'll get the next pair some very knowledgeable bino specialist puts out there!

#20 Wes James

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 02:11 PM

EdZ-
Sounds like these Nikons are going to rate as some of the best ever for their size...
Wes

#21 BillC

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 02:11 PM

Wes, I was juggling my Granddaughter and son at the time. HOWEVER, I DID respond; to you, and EVERYONE that asked about them. I may be a curmudgeon, but I try to be a polite one.

Cheers,

Bill

#22 Wes James

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 02:21 PM

Hi, Bill-
Sorry, never got your reply. I trust that things are better by now? Know that a lot of people were remembering you in their thoughts and prayers.
Wes

#23 EdZ

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 02:25 PM

Well, they are sure off to a Nagler-like performance... start

edz

#24 ausastronomer

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 04:09 PM

Ed,

Of all the other binoculars that I've tried one other that stands out for the quality of its edge performance is the Zeiss 15x60 B/GATs.

John Finnan


John,

Without a doubt these are the best medium/large astronomy binoculars I have used, which includes almost all of the premium contenders previously mentioned. These have outstanding unsurpassed performance in every criteria and it's unfortunate they took them out of production a few years ago, when at the time they were clearly the best medium/large astronomy binocular money could buy. Notwithstanding the high price tag, there was still a market for them at the top of the tree.

Second hand these would be a great buy, but I doubt you will see them offered. Whilst there are quite a few pair of these out there, except for deceased estate sales, no one that owns them will ever sell them.

Cheers

#25 Joe Ogiba

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 05:19 PM

Many Naglers require the use of a Paracorr in fast F3.5-F8 scopes and 99.9% of binoculars are in that range. I would prefer binoculars with 70° AFOV and 20mm eye relief like the Pentax XW's than the Naglers that have about half the eye relief.


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