32 replies to this topic

[mloffland]

The Laser and Laptop Wars: Star Party Etiquette for Modern Times

By: Rod Mollise

[Starman1]

Rod,
This is timely. I hope everyone going to the NightFall star party this month will read it.
It's why I wrote the following and posted in on Cloudy Nights a long time ago:
THE LAPTOP GOLDEN RULES

Lots of people use laptops in the field, now. The advent of computer programs to control the GoTo scopes, Lunar-Planetary Imagers, Deep-Sky Imagers, and other imaging programs have made their presence at star parties a common thing.

Unfortunately, to the visual-only observer, the very presence of the light from the laptop screens can be annoying and make it impossible to completely dark adapt.

As you wouldn't want someone to shine a bright white light in your eyes when you are observing, following a few simple "golden" rules will make you a welcome neighbor to any visual observer, and a welcome guest at any star party.

Here are the 5 "Laptop Golden Rules" to use at all times:

1. Place your laptop in a 5-sided box where the only side open allows only you to view the screen. This will keep dew off the keyboard, keep the laptop warmer (better battery life) and restrict the viewing angle so your neighbors will not be bothered.

2. Reduce the brightness of the screen to the minimum you can see comfortably. Remember, if someone can see the light on your face from 50' away, it is probably too bright. This will also save your battery and your night vision.


3. Use your laptop in "Night Mode". Most programs have an all-red night mode. Always use it.

4. Have the screen saver turn the screen off after 60 seconds of inactivity (this will save your battery) or hang a black cloth over the front of the box and cover the screen when you are not looking.


5. Use a screen brightness reducer like the "Sight Saver" from www.idealastronomy.com, or a piece of dark red Plexiglas so the image from your screen is as deep red as an LED flashlight.


THANKS FOR YOUR HELP.
HOPE ALL YOUR PICTURES TURN OUT GREAT!

[Jim Romanski]

I still think Green Laser Pointers can be used responsibly at star parties. The small ones I've been at allow them and frankly I don't even see anyone else's laser unless they are close to me.

However, I do understand why some star parties have banned them. I'm curious though, I've read what Rod wrote "most organized star parties have banned them" and I wonder how true this is.

I haven't been to a large organized star party in a while (only small ones). Can anyone elaborate on which star parties have banned them and which haven't?

[sanlopez]

Rod, you didn't mention a peeve o' mine, which is the "miner's hat" type red lights. Yes, they do help in keeping both mitts free for indulging in eyepiece switching/missing bolt finding/tripod leveling type work. However…

Some people have (well, at least people around these here parts) decided that they make for swell walkabout lights. And off they go, looking like Rudolph on Christmas eve. The problem is that when they stop and engage you in conversation, their red headlights are always pointed straight into your eyes. And red light or not, it’s annoying, not to mention blinding.

One more thing: If the star party organizers do not light up the way out, how do you drive off without flipping your awesome set of wheels?

[rmollise]

Rod, you didn't mention a peeve o' mine, which is the "miner's hat" type red lights. Yes, they do help in keeping both mitts free for indulging in eyepiece switching/missing bolt finding/tripod leveling type work. However…

Some people have (well, at least people around these here parts) decided that they make for swell walkabout lights. And off they go, looking like Rudolph on Christmas eve. The problem is that when they stop and engage you in conversation, their red headlights are always pointed straight into your eyes. And red light or not, it’s annoying, not to mention blinding.

One more thing: If the star party organizers do not light up the way out, how do you drive off without flipping your awesome set of wheels?

These lights can be very useful...unfortunately, they are way too bright for use on a dark observing field without some mods.

[Rusty]

I use the Ray-O-Vac "miner's light"; to me the advantage is that it can be aimed straight down.

Although I have one, I'm with the "Ban GLPs at star parties" movement. Our club conducted some tests, and green lasers DEFINITELY disrupt imaging, even if some distance off. For Public Outreach, I use mine. For star parties, it stays stored.

[Steph]

Those miner's lights can definitely be annoying to others, even when not used on walk-abouts...all someone has to do is look up from the star chart for a moment, to talk to you or glance at their scope, and they can half-blind others who are looking in that direction at that moment because those lights are usually rather bright -- unless they've taken measures to damp them down, but even still, a red light shining directly in one's eyes will be bright...

Another one of those things that might be better off kept for private/home use and not group use? Dunno. Good point though, sanlopez.

[desertstars]

I use the Ray-O-Vac "miner's light"; to me the advantage is that it can be aimed straight down.

That's the one I use, and I selected it over other available types for that very reason.

Ray-O-Vac

[Starman1]

I see red flashlights all the time that are way too bright (I've seen some that actually cast a red beam on trees 50' away!). Headband lights are all too bright, too.
I have come to the realization that most people must have extremely poor night vision, since I don't even use a light when selecting eyepieces from a case or getting an adapter from my table near the scope. I only use a 1-LED red light at minimum setting to write my notes or read a chart.
I've tried over 25 different red lights for the table, and all of them were too bright except a few:
--Celestron/StarLite/Orion/etc. red LED light with rheostat
--HoTech AstroAimer on minimum
--a few different LED lights where you can remove extra LEDs, leaving just one in the light.

You only need a red light that is adequately bright when within a few inches of the target. It's not necessary to have a red light bright enough to use as you would use a white light flashlight. Part of being a good neighbor at star parties is never pointing a light at a neighbor and never using a light the neighbor can see directly. That rules out little flashers on tripod legs, headband lights, uncovered laptop screens, a constantly-on red light hanging around your neck, green or red "operating" lights, DSCs or similar. From a distance of 15', your equipment should appear completely unlit.

It's really not hard to live up to those standards, but why should you? Don't you have just as much right to be there as the next guy? Well, sure. But just like with secondhand smoke, your rights end where my eyes (or nose) begin. It's called "being neighborly". And it goes a long way toward making a star party a pleasant experience for all.

[speaking of star parties, isn't it cool when several of you are looking at the same object at the same time and you can wander around and see the same object through different scopes? Just be careful looking through the really big scopes.....I hear aperture fever is catching. ]

[SkyscraperJim]

This article was a good read, but I think no article that touches on the issues of light etiquette is complete without mentioning PROPER USE of red lights.

True most places have the "if its not red its not allowed" rule, but this is all too often not used with the common sense that should go with any source of light on any observing field.

Even if it is red, it can still cause glare and night vision loss if directed at someone else's eyes.

We often profess that all outdoor lights should be fully shielded to prevent glare and light trespass, but I'm always seeing red lights carelessly shone about above the horizontal. And yes, some of these red LED lights are WAY too bright. I know some people who keep a red light on constantly, either sitting on a corner of their observing table (pointed away from themselves of course) or on a lanyard around their neck.

I seem to have a rare ability to be able to set up, break down, and switch eyepieces or adjust my equipment in the dark, unassisted with any light. The only thing I really NEED a red light for is to read a chart. I understand that most people must use a light to do the things that I can do without, but PLEASE be considerate of those around you. Use the light only when you need it (not always on), and PLEASE shine it only where you need it.

Dimmable red LEDs are best. Look for a torch that only has one or 2 LEDs in it, not an array of 5 or 8 or whatever some of them come with now. Also, those multi-colored lights (you know the kind where you get white and red on the same torch) need to be used with caution. Put a piece of tape over the white light button to remind yourself in the dark that you should not use that one during observing. Also, the lights where you have to "cycle through" the different colors to get to red, no good on the field. I know people who have these as well, and you hear the typical "click-click click-click" as they cycle through white, blue, maybe even green, before they get to the red, and of course they don't warn anyone that they're about to use a white light.

[Larry Geary]

Rod, I'm one of those troglodytes who hates both laptops and green lasers on the field. I once had a laptop user threaten me with violence because I asked him - nicely - a second time, to please turn his unshielded laptop away from me.

Some enterprising vendor should develop a little laptop tent of lightproof material (and vinyl outside for dew protection) with a solid floor for the laptop and mouse. It could be a big seller. Even better might be a system that fits into a Pelican case or equivalent.

Green lasers don't just annoy imagers. I've tried enjoying an eyepiece view of a popular object like M31 shortly after it rises out of the muck, only to have a green dagger suddenly stab it through the heart. I wait patiently, wondering who might have cluelessly violated the sanctity of the night and meditating on the marital status of his parents, but the beam soon goes out. Then it happens again. And again. And again. I suppose people will tell me I shouldn't be wasting my time with M31 when I could be looking at IC3972, but the same could be said of my horribly-beweaponed fellow "star gazers". Anyway, it's my choice to view what I want. I just wish people who insist (with many exclamation points) that this is the way God always intended telescopes to be pointed and they couldn't possibly be causing harm to anyone by this practice would realize that, yeah dude, you are causing harm and annoyance, and it's totally unnecessary.

[ALCHEMIST1]

I'm sorry, but I will go the other way in this entire discussion. Although these light etiquette rules make perfect sense on paper, they're just not practical nor in my years of observing experience necessary. I've never had my enjoyment of telescopic views ruined because someone shone a red flashlight in my face, or a green laser beam cut into the FOV as I was looking at that dim Trumpler open cluster or UGC galaxy. I'm sure my pupils contracted a bit, but as soon as the light was removed they must expand right back out as the views of these dim objects didn't change in brightness, detail or any other way. Most people who I have spoken to in my clubs say the same thing. Some of the posters here keep saying that they can do everything out in the observing field without the use of lights and use a single red LED light to read charts and write notes. Well, they must be the exception to the rule. I and others in our club, despite decades of experience observing under dark skies, cannot see well enough in the dark to do this. Sorry, we need those red flashlights. We get a lot of novice and budding astronomers who show up at our dark sky site and so green lasers are almost constantly in use when more experienced members point out celestial features such as asterisms and constellations in the sky to these novice and inexperienced users. We also have imagers who always set up at the site and they have laptops with red cellophane on the screen with the brightness settings minimized. None of these people bother us in the least and their being out there with me simply reminds us that this hobby brings diversity and change with it. Sure, if someone is intentionally shining a super bright white light out in the field, well, let's just say that that person will be in trouble. But if someone has their red flashlight, or red cellophane covered laptop or PDA switched on constantly we aren't bothered by them.

[rmollise]

I'm sorry, but I will go the other way in this entire discussion. Although these light etiquette rules make perfect sense on paper, they're just not practical nor in my years of observing experience necessary. I've never had my enjoyment of telescopic views ruined because someone shone a red flashlight in my face, or a green laser beam cut into the FOV as I was looking at that dim Trumpler open cluster or UGC galaxy. I'm sure my pupils contracted a bit, but as soon as the light was removed they must expand right back

You may have very sensitive, good eyes, but physiologically, you do not recover your night vision instantly. It is not, you see, just a matter or your pupils dialating and undialating, it is a matter of the rhodopsin on your retina being bleached and unbleached. In most case, it may take up to half an hour for full dark adaptation to be regained after exposure to bright light.

[ALCHEMIST1]

Sorry, Rod. I will respectfully disagree. I am a PhD chemist by training and do not agree with the terms used, "bleaching" and "unbleaching". These terms are associated typically from a chemical standpoint for redox reactions. Retinal, the cofactor in the family of proteins aggregately referred to as the opsins, isn't really involved in a redox reaction in its mechanism of action. Rather a conformational change of a double bond at the C11 position from cis to trans occurs in that cofactor when it is exposed to light of the appropriate wavelength. This conformational change triggers a messenger cascade by activating the appropriate G protein. It takes a fair amount of light exposure to cause all the retinal in the rhodopsin (responsible for monochromatic vision or dark adapted vision) to fully change to the trans form. Reversion to the cis form is relatively fast with timescales on the order of a hundred femtoseconds, based on the published literature (Mathies et. al. Science, Vol 240, Issue 4853, 777-779). Certainly it takes longer for the protein conformation to revert back to the original form and even longer for the G-protein and associated messenger cascade to reset, but those timescales are on the order of milliseconds (Nakamichi et. al. Angew. Chem. Int. Ed. Engl. 45 (26): 4270–4273. and also see Schreiber et. al Angew. Chem. Int. Ed. Engl. 45 (26): 4274–4277). They have to be, or you'd have a very hard time seeing in the dark at all. The oft used parable "it may take up to half an hour for full dark adaptation to be regained after exposure to bright light" is a qualitative interpretation. It depends on how bright the light source is, and how long the exposure is for. If the light source is a red flashlight (even the brighter ones of the miner hat type) and the exposure is for a few seconds, you'll be approximately 95% dark adapted in less than a minute and about 99.9% dark adapted in less than 5 minutes. On the other hand if some yo-yo shines a bright white flashlight beam into your eyes for a second or two, then yes, it may take several minutes for 50% dark adaptation.

[Starman1]

Here's the point: YOU may not be bothered by bright red lights (or green) from your observing neighbors, but some of us are.
Of course, in the scheme of things, being bothered by an overly bright red light is minor compared to the headlights and tail lights of a car pulling out from the observing spot next to you. I've always wondered why people who come to an observing site to stargaze leave at 3am to return home. I'd fall asleep on the road. It seems a lot safer to snooze in the car for an hour or two and then drive home.
But back to the point: if your lights are bright enough to bother your observing neighbor at a star party, then they are improperly aimed or used. It's just that simple. Whether you can see in the dark as well as others is irrelevant. If your lights shine directly into someone else's eyes, and that person doesn't want your light to be directly visible like that, then simple courtesy says you should take steps to shield it and not let it annoy that other person.
Since you can't know that in advance, simple precautions to shield the light and to keep it aimed where only you will see it make a lot of sense.

As for dark adaptation, it just depends on degree. There is a level of dark adaptation that most of us never achieve. I've experimented with looking at the ground at night until I can make out individual pebbles and ground colorations (shades). Then, a quick glance at the night sky (and this is at a dark site) makes me feel as if my pupils are contracting against the light. If I return my gaze to the ground, I can no longer see any details on the ground, and the low-light vision I had takes several minutes to return. So, the night vision level you had looking at the sky is less dark adapted.
I see the same thing when using a black drop cloth over my head for several minutes, blocking all light from peripheral vision and, essentially, allowing only light from the eyepiece to pass. After several minutes of this, removing the cloth causes a noticeable pinch of constricting pupils--at first I can see every nut and bolt in my scope as if I were seeing in twilight, but after a minute or so I lose that level of dark adaptation and return to a lesser level of night vision--still good enough to safely walk around without a light, but not nearly the degree of light sensitivity obtained with the cloth over my head.

So what is dark-adapted? I would argue that the people who use overly bright red lights, laptop screens, StarBook computers, and the like never dark adapt fully. They achieve a certain level of dark adaptation, but never reach the more sensitive levels. Certainly, that's OK for M13 and similar bright, showy, objects. But looking for HII regions in the arms of M74 or looking for a UGC galaxy's companion requires another level of dark adaptation (or a much larger scope).

Do you know which type of viewing the person next to you is pursuing? Probably not. Ergo, shield the lights, keep them as dim as you find practical, and enjoy the sky.

[quantumac]

This is a reason why I don't like public star parties: the rowdy ones.

Geeks? Rowdy? Yeah.

I don't enjoy the prospect of traveling to a far away, dark site just to have a few grumps disturb me and everyone else by yelling at laptop users or those with "bright" red lights. This is especially bad when the light exposure is on accident.

I want to enjoy the night sky. Quietly contemplate it. Fellowship with friends is welcome, but we geeks tend to be rather strained when it comes to simple manners. Instead of a gentle whisper, like "Excuse me, could you shield that light a little better? Thank you so much. Come look through my scope..." we get, "Turn that $%@! light off or I'll bash in your face!"

Um, no thanks. Courtesy isn't something that goes away after sundown.

[ALCHEMIST1]

This is a reason why I don't like public star parties: the rowdy ones.

Geeks? Rowdy? Yeah.

I don't enjoy the prospect of traveling to a far away, dark site just to have a few grumps disturb me and everyone else by yelling at laptop users or those with "bright" red lights. This is especially bad when the light exposure is on accident.

I want to enjoy the night sky. Quietly contemplate it. Fellowship with friends is welcome, but we geeks tend to be rather strained when it comes to simple manners. Instead of a gentle whisper, like "Excuse me, could you shield that light a little better? Thank you so much. Come look through my scope..." we get, "Turn that $%@! light off or I'll bash in your face!"

Um, no thanks. Courtesy isn't something that goes away after sundown.

Oh yes, I know exactly want you mean from a personal experience standpoint.

[ALCHEMIST1]

Here's the point: YOU may not be bothered by bright red lights (or green) from your observing neighbors, but some of us are.

I agree, and if it bothers you so much you should do something about it. Perhaps talk to the person offending you in a polite but firm way. On the other hand, it is possible that they will politely but firmly refuse to change whatever it is that is bothering you. Ask yourself this, is what they are doing genuinely hurting your visual acuity, or are you just plain annoyed at them for doing something that doesn't meet with your criteria of dark sky behavior, or a combination of both?

Of course, in the scheme of things, being bothered by an overly bright red light is minor compared to the headlights and tail lights of a car pulling out from the observing spot next to you. I've always wondered why people who come to an observing site to stargaze leave at 3am to return home. I'd fall asleep on the road. It seems a lot safer to snooze in the car for an hour or two and then drive home.

Consideration is a two way street. If they've been considerate to you the entire evening, but want to leave at 3AM, rather than getting annoyed or trying to understand their motivations, shouldn't you considerately turn away from their running lights and close your eyes?

But back to the point: if your lights are bright enough to bother your observing neighbor at a star party, then they are improperly aimed or used. It's just that simple. Whether you can see in the dark as well as others is irrelevant. If your lights shine directly into someone else's eyes, and that person doesn't want your light to be directly visible like that, then simple courtesy says you should take steps to shield it and not let it annoy that other person.
Since you can't know that in advance, simple precautions to shield the light and to keep it aimed where only you will see it make a lot of sense.

True, but then how can you know that your light is hurting someone else, unless they politely let you know? I've known a number of people who would be bothered by a dim red flashlight aimed directly at my charts. "Turn that light off you inconsiderate #$%^^" is a phrase I've heard used at times and for seeming non-issues.

As for dark adaptation, it just depends on degree.

My point exactly.

So what is dark-adapted? I would argue that the people who use overly bright red lights, laptop screens, StarBook computers, and the like never dark adapt fully. They achieve a certain level of dark adaptation, but never reach the more sensitive levels. Certainly, that's OK for M13 and similar bright, showy, objects. But looking for HII regions in the arms of M74 or looking for a UGC galaxy's companion requires another level of dark adaptation (or a much larger scope).

Do you know which type of viewing the person next to you is pursuing? Probably not. Ergo, shield the lights, keep them as dim as you find practical, and enjoy the sky.

Well, all you have to do is ask the person what type of viewing they're doing or simply glance over. BTW, that dark cloth over your head sounds like a super idea if it lets you look at the faint HII regions in M74 without being bothered by your neighbor's red light.

Granted, someone imaging would never be fully dark adapted, but I would argue that they don't need to be dark adapted at all. They can clearly see far more detail in the image displayed on their laptop screen even with the red cellophane at the dimmest setting than someone else going after that object with even the largest amateur scope can visually.

[Starman1]

All good points. Politeness should flow both ways.

[ALCHEMIST1]

Here's one of MY pet peeves and Rod hit it right on the head in the article:

"some joker cookin’ a burger on the field ...... and, adding insult to injury, not sharing them good smellin’ sliders"

Now this really bothers me. I've shared the view of M22 through my scope with you haven't I? Now gimme a burger with extra onions, absolutely NO mayo (you put mayo on and you and I WILL have a problem, pal) and while you're at it hand me that soda.

[stevek]

curious.... reading this thread made me feel ... defensive... That doesnt happen very often here on CN....

I'm a green laser guy. I shine it thru the finder and align with it that way. Thats how I do it. I like it. Its fast and efficient and accurate. I'm not going to change. My average shine time is under 2 seconds and it does not stray from the finder to local area. If this bothers someone and they take the time to politely ask me to stop, I will NOT... but I will attempt to minimize its use. (Same with my smoking...) I WILL make a major effort to avoid imaging events with my greenie, but again wouldnt stop using it, just choose different targets. Aggressive approaches would only make me smile and ignore (If you really intend physical aggression - bring it on - I'm more than capable ). As for general lighting mishaps... an oops is an oops... bummer but oh well... but the greenie is MY way of doing this and I have no intent of EVER converting to one of those straight thru things to get away from it or struggling visually thru a rich star field when I can be aligned in seconds.

Another thing that kind of bothered me here was the presentation of 'irks' at star parties. I guess its good to have them written so some others can read them ahead of time and be forewarned...but really??? I figure star parties open to public and multiple viewers need to accommodate all the best they can. No???? Honestly, I am irked by rules and grumpy enforcement. It irks me that I may not be able to line up a target with 'my' method cuz someone else has a camera on it... and that someone may not care for my smoking and make the effort to complain or be rude...but I'm not going to get bent over it or even complain. My point is 'your way' may be as bothersome to me as mine is to you. Get over it. Its a party. Have a drink, find a target, relax & enjoy.
Steve

[sixela]

I use the Ray-O-Vac "miner's light"; to me the advantage is that it can be aimed straight down.

Although I have one, I'm with the "Ban GLPs at star parties" movement. Our club conducted some tests, and green lasers DEFINITELY disrupt imaging,

I use mine at star parties, but always for the *minimum* amount of time, and I make a point of asking any photographers what they're going to image. The neighbourhood of these immediately becomes a Forbidden Zone.

Of course, that's impractical at large star parties (but to be honest, I question the sanity of people trying to image at large star parties: that's quite masochistic, as it's not unheard of to see someone bump or even simply lean on a mount that has been painstakingly drift-aligned for the better part of an hour).

And I beg to differ with Steve: if anyone asks me not to use the GLP, I won't, and switch to the optical finder or Starblast finder (or ask if he still minds if I go and set up *very* far from him).

No question asked. Except at our own star parties, in which everybody is a responsible GLP user and where they are the norm.

That rarely happens, especially if you ask everyone if they mind (which, of course, is only practical at small star parties).

I'll also add one thing about GLPs: it's better if they're tuned to be less than 5mW, and that helps not bothering anyone even close to your scope. I indeed don't enjoy people with a 20mW laser, which is (at least in our humid air) so bright that it's ineffective as a finder. These lasers should be reserved to show large groups around the constellations, which is not something for star parties.

That'll be my final observation: if people are civil, there is usually little need for a set of *strict* rules, though there is a need to coach newcomers.

[rmollise]

Sorry, Rod. I will respectfully disagree.

Welcome to the club!

I am not a PhD chemist, and I admire your accomplishments, but the simple fact I was trying to express in my simple-minded language is that you do NOT immediately recover your dark adaptation when the bad ol' bright light is taken away. It will require at LEAST a half hour--if not more--to be FULLY restored. That is just a fact of human physiology, and full dark adaptation is what most of us want when we are searching for PGC Umptysquat.

Thanks for your erudite explanation, though; now if dumb ol' Rod could just understand it.

[rmollise]

I don't enjoy the prospect of traveling to a far away, dark site just to have a few grumps disturb me and everyone else by yelling at laptop users or those with "bright" red lights. This is especially bad when the light exposure is on accident.

The secret of a good star party experience, as I point out in the article, is BE NICE TO YOUR FELLOW OBSERVERS. You know an unshielded laptop is gonna BOTHER people, even if the effect might really be relatively small. Don't do that. You know everybody makes mistakes with their car headlights and that yelling at 'em won't help a thing. Don't do that...

and on and on ad infinitum...

[cvedeler]

I think that different star parties should have different rules. Obviosly public star parties don't count when it comes to green lasers and other light offenses as often they are done in town and the observers themselves may be carrying a big old white flashlight.

Club parties way out in the sticks should make their own rules based on the collective needs of everyone out there. If you want the purest darkest skies the best way to guarantee it is to get a small group of like minded individuals to go together, or go by yourself.

The bottom line is to be courteous and respectful so everyone can enjoy their time together under the stars.

I'm one of those laptop guys and I also use a green laser as a finder. However I'm very conscientious the the needs of those around me. I usually only use the green laser once or twice as once my mount is aligned there is no longer any need. I have a thick piece of red Plexiglas I put over my laptop screen and I run my screen at the minimum brightness. It is so dark I often have a hard time reading things on it even with dark adapted eyes, but I try and make do for the sake of my own dark adaptation and those around me.