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New Apogee 20x100...clone of the Oberwerk 22x100?

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#1 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 23 November 2003 - 06:48 AM

Hi,I have seen the new Apogee.inc 20x100, it is identical to 22x100 but coast 199$ :shocked:
As it is possible? :question:
It has the same quality? :question:
Or is a bottle bottom... a that price?
ettore

#2 Rusty

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Posted 23 November 2003 - 09:36 PM

I have the Ober 22x100s, and, color aside, it still doesn't look like them; the Ober housings are quite different. Nevertheless, they could be a decent buy at the introductory price. :bigshock:

#3 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 02:52 PM

Hi, is sure that the optical quality of the Ober is better but the external hull is identical!! :)
They are produced from the same Chinese company? :question:
ettore

#4 EdZ

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 03:23 PM

That' a photograph of Oberwerk Deluxe 20x80s. It doesn't even have the bridge across the objective lenses.

The 22x100 does use the same body as the 20x80, but the front end is put together a little differently.

I cannot answer that they are or are not produced at the same factory. But that doesn't matter.

You can have 4 different companies all order a similar binocular from the same factory and every on of those 4 companies can order different quality parts that go inside. Company A might order only the outside of the objective lens and the outside of the eye lens be fully multi-coated. Company B might order every surface of every lens fully multi-coated.

It's not the factory that counts. It's what's inside that counts.

edz

#5 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 05:03 PM

Sorry I have attacked the wrong image it is the 20x80 :p
I have verified that are in sale various models of 22x100 with various cost and differences in the performances (Image 1,2,3,4).
I task that external hull of all models in figure is the same one but the quality is various.
ettore


#6 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 28 November 2003 - 01:53 AM

I would be very interested to hear from someone who owns a 20x100 apogee.

The only photo of the 20x100 on the web seems to be the one above. I can’t tell if the it has a support and mount similar to the Oberwerk 22x100.

From all indications the apogee 25x100 and the celestron 25x100 are the same binocular. (at least that is what I have read on yahoo forums and on cloudy nights.)

The apogee is $249. I don’t know who has better customer service, as I have never dealt with either company.

If someone knows something solid about the Apogee 20x100s please post here.


Thanks.


#7 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 10:57 PM

I have the Apogee version. It is identical externally to the Oberwerk in every way. It had a number of problems:

1. Colimation with round pupils could not be achieved untill the shims were installed in the front post/flexure point, pushing the objective tubes apart about 0.2" each.

2. The RFOV is about 2.8*, not the 4.9* written on the back of the prism housing. It seems that everyone is used to this trick by now.

3. The right, diopter-adjustible eyepiece was angled in it's focuser, mostly due to the loose tolerance plastic parts. A tape shim was installed correcting this problem.

4. The case that came with the binoculars is nice, but is lined with styrofoam.

Overall these are OK optically. Reasonable sharpness, AFOV of about 50*, MgF2 coating on prisms and eyepices. Rings visible on Saturn, thin yellow fringe on the moon, good on DSOs. This is an alternative design with the 25x100, which appears to have a larger AFOV (65*?) at higher magnification, but may suffer some sharpness loss at the edge. I would be curious to hear from the 25x100 owners.

#8 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 11:53 PM

From what I've seen and heard, and also talking to Kevin at Oberwerks, the Oberwerks are not clones of anything. They are priced more than the Apogee's, Burgess, and Celestron. Personally, I wouldn't buy a pair of 100mm bino's without center focus, and I don't believe that the rest have it (I could be wrong). I've had a few QA issues, but overall I think their customer service and optics are better.

#9 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 01:49 AM

I would think that any item made in China is subject to coping/cloning, and that an American company that contracts to have things built there should almost expect their product copied and re-produced under another name, even if it isn’t by the same company that made their specific product.

This doesn’t mean that the same quality of materials, attention to detail, or craftsmanship are going to be available in the copied item, but given time and enough feedback from their wholesalers in the United States and I’m sure the Chinese will be producing identical copies/clones of whatever sells well enough to make it worth their while.

So the 20x100s Apogees may not be up to the standards of the Oberworks in 2003, but by 2005 they may very well be.

thanks.

#10 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 02:05 AM

The major differences between the Apogees and the Oberwerks appear to be:

1. Apogee are not fully multi-coated. Only one or two objective surfaces are green, the rest is light blue. Oberwerks are said to be fully multi-coated on every surface with a very good coating. This is an expensive and likely a worthwhile improvement.

2. Oberwerks have at least nominally different eyepieces. Since the Apogees have what looks like a simple plossl design, Oberwerks may well be superior in eyepiece quality.


The price difference, while substantial, may well be very reasonable and appropriate for the quality-oriented customer. In addition, neither is really expensive, so one can choose the price/performance that suits the buyer.

#11 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 05:38 PM

If you look at www.binocularschina.com , you will find a potential source of these Chinese binoculars that specifically acknowledges that Oberwerk is their US distributor.
In the UK , I was able to source a shipment of 15x70 and 20x80 products simply by sending the requisite numbers of dollars. They even put my own German sounding brand name on them ! I also figure that something vaguely Germanic will sell the kit better than calling them Chop Suey specials !

Point is that there would have been nothing to prevent me forwarding this shipment on to the US or anywhere else for that matter. Therefore, it would seem quite likely that there will be Oberwerk equivalent kit available - although the temptation for any distributor will be to save money by scimping on coatings, eyepieces etc to maximise their short term profit. Any reputable dealer like Oberwerk does well to make a virtue out of the necessity of doing the Chinese Q.A men's job for them - there were some quality nightmares in the shipment I had - but they were still fantastic value for money in overall terms.



#12 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 05:52 PM


Ian,

Thanks for the link. I need to forward this to my boss so he can see that the Chinese working conditions shown in the photo are superior to my office here in the US..

:-)

thanks.


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