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Docter UWA 12.5mm

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#26 John F

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 10:25 PM

Bill,

After reading your post I'm scratching my head wondering what you mean by when you declare the TV 3.7mm SX to be a "game changer". Which game are you referring to and which aspect of the game is being changed by it?

Also, which scope were you using it on and at what powers and on which objects.

I have an NP127 and the 8mm & 6mm Ethos eyepieces which I can use with my 2.0X Powermate at 165x & 220x respectively and I have a difficult time imaging how a 3.7mm SX at 178x and with a 110-degree AFOV would make much of a difference on any of the types of objects that I use the Ethos eyepieces on in the 165x - 220x power range.

John Finnan

#27 russell23

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 10:52 PM

Hi Dave:
It does in my eye and mind. Right out of the water. We viewed Bode's Galaxy with it in Rob Lockhart's Vixen 8 inch and it was no contest.
Bill


Bill,

I find that very exciting. This eyepiece has 20mm of eye relief and an 84 deg -- or is it 88 deg AFOV? I can wear my eyeglasses while using it.

Any problems with tricky eyeplacement? Did it every get barlowed?

Dave

#28 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 12:39 AM

Okay Tammy,

After two hours of rigorous testing through my Tak FS152 I must say that this 12.5mm Docter is unlike anything I've ever looked through. I will provide you with some details tomorrow.

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#29 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 12:40 AM

pic2

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#30 BadClams

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 09:00 AM

So what vendors carry this Docter???

#31 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 09:08 AM

Not sure, probably APM but I don't recall if that's where Tammy got it.

#32 Sockrateez

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 09:11 AM

APM has it for a mere $762 (using the currency convertor website) plus whatever credit charges and shipping and insurance need to be added.

But that's a bargain, the NAV 17.5 is $820.

Is it just me or are things getting a bit out of control with eyepiece prices - I mean come on.

#33 Sgt

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 09:29 AM

Hi Dave:
It does in my eye and mind. Right out of the water. We viewed Bode's Galaxy with it in Rob Lockhart's Vixen 8 inch and it was no contest.
Bill


Bill,

I find that very exciting. This eyepiece has 20mm of eye relief and an 84 deg -- or is it 88 deg AFOV? I can wear my eyeglasses while using it.

Any problems with tricky eyeplacement? Did it every get barlowed?

Dave


I also find that very exciting - mainly because the Docter has so much eye relief. Can't wait for the full report :jump:

#34 Tamiji Homma

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 09:55 AM

Hi Dave:
It does in my eye and mind. Right out of the water. We viewed Bode's Galaxy with it in Rob Lockhart's Vixen 8 inch and it was no contest.
Bill


Bill,

I find that very exciting. This eyepiece has 20mm of eye relief and an 84 deg -- or is it 88 deg AFOV? I can wear my eyeglasses while using it.

Any problems with tricky eyeplacement? Did it every get barlowed?

Dave


Hi Dave,

It is advertised as AFOV 84 degrees, my measurement was 88.1 degrees, field stop 19.21mm. Good eye relief, no tricky eyeplacement, just don't get too close trying to see field stop, you don't have to.

With Barlow lens, eye position becomes a bit tricky but not bad, I get used to it in 10 seconds :)

I tried TV 2x, Zeiss 2x, Nikon 1.6x Barlow lens with it in cyclops mode. They all work fine. I use the eyepiee in binoviewer with Barlow lens (BARCON, FFC, Tak 1.6x, 2x/4x Powermate) in front of diagonal. It works wonderfully. As I mentioned before, this is the very first eyepiece whose AFOV is beyond 72 degree that I am comfortable in binoviewer.

Tammy

#35 Tamiji Homma

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 10:08 AM

Not sure, probably APM but I don't recall if that's where Tammy got it.


I got them from APM America. Markus brought two to NEAF. I pre-ordered one and bought the second one while Markus was unable to go home, a lot of people bound for Europe got stuck at airport (JFK?). Remember? volcano smoke?

Tammy

#36 APM America

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 10:57 AM

They were on my table at NEAF, Dr. D, along with the NAV's; you just missed them! Oh well, Tammy's gain. ;)

Sounds like you had a fun party. Better than the Irish Pub?

#37 Tarzanrock

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 02:52 PM

Hi John:
We put the Televue 3.7 SX in John Rhodes' Televue Petzval 127 refractor.
When I said that the SX was a "game changer" I said that because I think that the SX design will replace the Ethos line. I'm no expert on optical design but I know what I saw with the SX and what I saw was better than any other Televue eyepiece I own or have viewed through and I own a lot of premium Televue eyepieces. I don't own any Ethos eyepieces although I've observed with all of them but there is no doubt whatsoever that I am going to buy the SX eyepiece when it becomes available. I think that the SX is cutting edge technology and it is going to be the new design for the second decade of the 21st Century much like the original 13 mm Nagler was last Century.
You are going to be reading a lot of superlatives about this SX eyepiece from the usual assortment of "experts" who write the product reviews in the various astronomy magazines and astro forums but in my simple mind Nagler really hit it out of the park with this eyepiece.
Bill

#38 Sgt

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 03:14 PM

Hi Bill,

Could you elaborate how it was better than your run-of-the-mill ethos? Do you remember any specific examples?
Thanks.

#39 jrbarnett

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 03:20 PM

"Docter, docter, I think I'm gonna crash!"

"Docter says he comin' but he says you gotta pay in cash! And LOTS of it!"

Nasty little glass habit you southern California brethren have developed. :grin:

I don't want to read about a Leitz overdose on the sidewalk outside of West Hollywood's Leica Club.

"Tammy was too young. He had such a bright future ahead of him. His observing career was just taking off."

Regards,

Jim

#40 Tarzanrock

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 03:22 PM

Hi Dave:
I believe that the Docter is 84 degrees. The Docter did not get barlowed. There is no problem whatsoever with eye placement with this eyepiece. It is a fantastic eyepiece. The sooner I get one the happier I will be and until I do I'll likely be following Tammy around at Star Parties.
I brought a 12 mm Pentax XF; a 12 mm Steinheil triplet monocentric; and, a 12 mm Japanese Celestron orthoscopic eyepiece to compare with the Docter but after I looked through the Docter I didn't even bother with those eyepieces or the comparison that I had anticipated because I knew, for a fact, that they wouldn't even come close to the Docter.
Rob put in his 13 mm Ethos to compare it and it was clear to all who looked through both the 13 Ethos and the 12 Docter that it was no contest; and, as Rob said: "It's not even close, not even close." Rob was dead bang right.
To characterize just how uneven that comparison was with a metaphor it was kind of like Wild Bill Hickock gunning down 5 men in the Nebraska stage station; Bob Beamon shattering the world long jump record in Mexico City in 1968 or Secretariat running away from the field of outstanding purebred race horses at the Belmont Stakes to seal the Triple Crown.
The Docter is, without any doubt whatsoever, the next eyepiece that I am going to buy. Having now viewed through it I can't imagine not having that eyepiece.
Bill

#41 BadClams

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 03:32 PM

APM has it for a mere $762 (using the currency convertor website) plus whatever credit charges and shipping and insurance need to be added.

But that's a bargain, the NAV 17.5 is $820.




Is it just me or are things getting a bit out of control with eyepiece prices - I mean come on.


Oh for cryin' out loud! $762???? Can that be right?!? Bang that noise.....

#42 andydj5xp

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 03:43 PM

Perhaps it was in using the new Leica zoom. That eyepiece is nothing short of almost unbelievable. Unfortunately, we didn't spend enough time with the Leica, but with what little time which was spent with it -- it is more than clear that it is a marvelous eyepiece.

....

To answer your question, that Leica zoom eyepiece was way, way beyond being "very good." The optical quality of that eyepiece parallels that of their most expensive binoculars.



I'm glad you liked it. And as I've stated in my review it is really kind of unbelievable. It has ample field of view, ample eye relief, it has a zoom's versatility, and - most important - its contrast transfer, lack of stray light, and resolution is like the ZAOIIs.

Andreas

#43 Tarzanrock

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 03:58 PM

Hi Sgt
We viewed Bodes Galaxy with the 12 Docter and Rob's 13 Ethos through Rob's 8 inch Vixen catadioptic which was mounted on Vixen's high end computer controlled mount. The scope and mount are flawless and performed flawlessly.
Prior to using the 12 mm Docter we used a 30 Pentax XW; a 22 mm Nagler T4; and, a 17 mm Nagler T4 to locate and view the spiral galaxy.
The light pollution was bad as the site is 33 miles from downtown Los Angeles and is located in a grove of California oak trees in Chesebro Canyon north of Los Angeles along the 101 Freeway.
The galaxy appeared as a fuzzball as viewed through each of the above mentioned eyepieces. Then Tammy said "do you want to try the Docter;" and, he handed the Docter eyepiece to Rob. Rob removed my 17 T4 and inserted the Docter into the diagonal and was the first of our group, other than Tammy, to look through the Docter.
Rob's words were "Oh my god!" "I can't believe it, I can't believe it -- this is what it is all about! -- come look, Bill." I then looked for the first time through the Docter and what I saw was not a fuzzy object but the galaxy itself in high definition -- the spiral structure was easily detectable and pinpoint individual stars (likely globuar clusters) within the galaxy itself and along its spiral structure were likewise detectable.
I couldn't believe it and like Rob I made similar exclamations of superlatives describing the quality of the glass given constraint of the existing light pollution at the site. Each of us took turns looking at Bodes Galaxy with the Docter. Then, after several turns of each of us viewing the galaxy, Rob said he wanted to compare it with his 13 Ethos saying that he knew that the comparison would not be close. He removed the Docter and handed it back to Tammy and put in the 13 Ethos.
It wasn't close -- the galaxy was again a fuzzball, a fuzzy patch just like it was in the other eyepieces, the spiral structure was not detectable and the stars within the galaxy were not detectable as they had been in the Docter.
We later used the Docter in John Rhodes' Televue Petzval 127 apo refractor and viewed the Beehive and Saturn. As I recall made no further comparisons with any other Ethos eyepiece to the Docter -- there was no need to do so as it was clear to me and I suspect it was equally clear everyone else that the Docter was the superior eyepiece.
We did view the Beehive and Saturn with the new 3.7 SX and the 17 Ethos and the 21 Ethos. All three of which are outstanding eyepieces and from my perspective the SX is the best of the lot of those Televue eyepieces.
Bill

#44 Mike Hosea

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 04:50 PM

I'm glad you liked it. And as I've stated in my review it is really kind of unbelievable. It has ample field of view, ample eye relief, it has a zoom's versatility, and - most important - its contrast transfer, lack of stray light, and resolution is like the ZAOIIs.


How's the correction for lateral color? What are the available solutions for a 2" or 1.25" barrel?

#45 russell23

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 05:35 PM

Well shoot Bill. And I thought after I bought a 17.5mm Nikon NAV that I was done finding new eyepieces. I assume this Docter eyepiece would blow away the Nikon too because Tammy has said that the Nikon and the 17mm Ethos are very similar in performance.

Time to start figuring out what equipment I would need to sell to get one of these.

Dave

#46 ThomasM

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 05:38 PM

Hi Bill,

what makes the docter and also the new nikon nav 17 mm so different? Other eyepieces like the Nagler T4 ( 12 mm- 22 mm) also have excellent transmission, large eyerelief and a field of view more than 80 degree. Further, orthos like the Zeiss Abbe II or also Pentax and Baader ortho have transmission above 95 % and are free of gosts. So, what makes the difference?

Thomas

#47 Tarzanrock

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 05:58 PM

Hi Dave:
I do like that new Nikon. As I have said it is one of the four that I'm now going to get but Docter makes a 16.4 for their binoculars and I now think that I'm going to have to look into that eyepiece as well.
That Nikon certainly properly fills the gap between the Pentax 14 XW and the 20 XW.
Bill

#48 Tarzanrock

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 06:03 PM

Hi Thomas:
I'm no expert on eyepieces and others on this forum are certainly far more qualified than I am to opine about them. I simply know what I saw with the Docter and it was better in my mind and eye. I'm guessing but I suspect that it is because they use superior glass -- likely German Schott glass -- which may be of a newer or a purer composition than that used by other manufacturers.
Bill

#49 Mike Hosea

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 08:18 PM

I'm guessing but I suspect that it is because they use superior glass -- likely German Schott glass -- which may be of a newer or a purer composition than that used by other manufacturers.


:lol: I think I've been hanging around eyepiece forums for too long, because to me this reaction is not new. I'm sure it's a great eyepiece.

#50 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 09:12 PM


How's the correction for lateral color? What are the available solutions for a 2" or 1.25" barrel?



Good to see you Mike. I carefully checked for lateral color last night and detected none. It requires an unusual amount of out travel to come to focus, which I actually like because it's always easier to add an extension than to remove it. I ran Saturn all the way out, through the field stop and it was beautiful. At the time, I was using my F-8 Tak FS152.

Even though the magnification will be high, I will be testing it in my Mewlon 250 as well. I'm not really interested in evaluating eyepieces anymore, but this was different. There are several truly remarkable notes I have regarding this eyepiece. The first thing is it's mechanical design. Although it's small, it's a heavy little thing, but the barrels are both 2" and 1.25" which I love.

The eye relief is nothing short of sensational either and I'm going to guess about 20mm's. Perhaps someone has something more specific but this is just a guess. For example, with the eyecup rolled all the way down, you can hold your eye above the glass with plenty of room to spare and easily engulf the entire field of view all at once. Truly one the most remarkable sites in astronomy. If that's too difficult for some observers, then no worries. When the eyecup is rolled up, it positions your eye "exactly" at the correct distance to take in the entire field of view unlike many eyepieces you an I have tested in the past.

Last night I was viewing Saturn with it, along with some multiple stars. Even with the magnification this low, the light scatter was so minimal that I was finding myself having to use averted vision to actually see it compared to any other eyepiece I even had in a similar focal length. Very bizarre and unlike anything I'd seen before. I was seriously beginning to wonder if there was some kind of high tech military technology in this eyepiece. As hard as this will be for many to believe, after what I saw last night, I don't even think I own anything that stands up to this eyepiece in contrast regardless of its design. Even the light through-put was unusually high compared to anything I've seen. Specs on paper may say otherwise being a multi element design but I saw what I saw.

I spent about one hour observing stars in M44's Beehive Cluster all over the field and they looked like tiny, little pin pricks edge to edge. I have used and tested many eyepieces over the years. Of course there are various focal length classes to consider, but if anybody asked me what eyepiece left an indelible mark on me, then this is it. This eyepiece is the finest glass I've ever seen regardless of design.


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