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IC-1296

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#1 Feidb

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 05:18 PM

Has anyone glimpsed IC-1296, that faint galaxy next to the Ring Nebula? I have been trying for a while now, but can never seem to nail it. The one night I tried, I easily picked out a mag. 15.2 galaxy near NGC-7331 but when I went to the Ring and tried to see this mag. 14.8 object, no dice. I've even seen the central star of the ring but could not make out the galaxy. Has anyone else had better luck?

#2 Sirius76

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 08:43 PM

Has anyone glimpsed IC-1296, that faint galaxy next to the Ring Nebula? I have been trying for a while now, but can never seem to nail it. The one night I tried, I easily picked out a mag. 15.2 galaxy near NGC-7331 but when I went to the Ring and tried to see this mag. 14.8 object, no dice. I've even seen the central star of the ring but could not make out the galaxy. Has anyone else had better luck?


I have plenty of times. The trick is to know exactly where to look. I use an asterism of stars that make up a smalle "smiley face". You can see it in the DSS image to the lower left of M57. The two brightest stars are its eyes and you can make out a nose and mouth. (the mouth comprises of a couple close doubles) IC1296 lies immediately to the side of the nose back towards the Ring. I've attached a copy of the image but I can't point out the stars I'm referring to. (I'm at work and this computer wont let me edit any photos)

Anyway, I hope you this helps. Anytime I show this object to someone in my scope I always use the "smiley face" asterism and without fail everyone manages to see it. Mind you, I'm using a 25" but I've seen it in my friends 16" and 18" using the same technique. Just be sure your under moderately dark skies and be sure to use some magnification. Once you find the asterism/field the galaxy becomes quite easy.

Good luck!

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#3 hbanich

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 09:23 PM

I know exactly where to look too but my expereince with IC 1296 has always been that it's a tough object with low surface brightness. It's always been difficult for me to see well with either my 20 or 28 inch from a true dark sky site (black zone) at 5000 feet. It seems like it should be easier to see but it's always been a bugger for me.

I think this is a good example that our eyes are all different and what's easy for one person is difficult for another - even though both are expereinced observers with large scopes. This is why I hesistate to say that any one observer should see X object with Y size scope from Z location.

#4 Sirius76

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 11:16 PM

I know exactly where to look too but my expereince with IC 1296 has always been that it's a tough object with low surface brightness. It's always been difficult for me to see well with either my 20 or 28 inch from a true dark sky site (black zone) at 5000 feet. It seems like it should be easier to see but it's always been a bugger for me.

I think this is a good example that our eyes are all different and what's easy for one person is difficult for another - even though both are expereinced observers with large scopes. This is why I hesistate to say that any one observer should see X object with Y size scope from Z location.


Agreed Howard!

I hope my post wasn't misconstrued. Objects like this tend to be different for all observers. Some see them with ease while others never catch a glimpse. But you're right and I hope I didn't come off the wrong way. Everyone is different and we all don't have the same set of eyes nor experiences. I was just trying to convey my own personal experiences with this particular object. The objective of my post was to give the OP my technique for finding 1296.

I just hope it works for him!

#5 star drop

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 11:48 PM

I have also looked for it without success.

#6 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 12:17 AM

I've seen IC 1296 a few times through very large apertures.

Dave Mitsky

#7 David Knisely

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 02:01 AM

Has anyone glimpsed IC-1296, that faint galaxy next to the Ring Nebula? I have been trying for a while now, but can never seem to nail it. The one night I tried, I easily picked out a mag. 15.2 galaxy near NGC-7331 but when I went to the Ring and tried to see this mag. 14.8 object, no dice. I've even seen the central star of the ring but could not make out the galaxy. Has anyone else had better luck?


It is quite difficult in moderate apertures. I have seen it (barely) in my 10 inch f/5.6 Newtonian on a very dark and clear night, but it was a real challenge (and most of what was seen was the core). Probably the best view of it I ever got was in a 25 inch f/5 Obsession. We could see the arm structure as a very dim "S" shape with a bit of a small brightening at the core, but the rest of the object was rather diffuse. Clear skies to you.

#8 WillCarney

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 08:53 AM

I have not seen it yet. I did just capture it with my C-8 and ST-7 camera. Not like pictured above. It was just barely noticable in the picture. I hope to spot it when our C-14 comes back from re-furb work.
William

#9 yann pothier

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:04 AM

I am at the opposite side : I have seen IC 1296 on numerous occasions but very rarely M57's central star in a 17.5" dob. My observing site offers a visual magnitude limit of 6.5-7.0 (held with averted vision 10-50% of the observing time) but is not steady most of the time. Maybe that's an explanation : transparency (IC1296 visible) versus seeing (central star visible) ?

Hope this helps,
clear skies,
Yann

#10 Alvin Huey

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:46 AM

From my experience, I seen and missed it many times with my 22 and 30" reflectors at NELM 6.5 skies. See it all the time at 6.8+ skies with both telescopes. Every time I see it, it is a DIM fuzzy glow will ill-defined edges.

I think the main thing that makes a difference is seeing followed by transparency.

My best view was at 7.0 skies with Steve Kennedy's 28". The seeing was incredible that evening and it was amazing. The stellar core popped in and out and could start to make out the very faint barred spiral structure. To give you an idea how good the seeing was, we were able to resolve the double quasar and two widely spaced dim spots - 15 degrees above the horizon! That is a LOT of atmosphere. Howard, I think you were there too - one of the SSP star parties, when Kennedy was right next to you.

#11 hbanich

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 04:26 PM

From my experience, I seen and missed it many times with my 22 and 30" reflectors at NELM 6.5 skies. See it all the time at 6.8+ skies with both telescopes. Every time I see it, it is a DIM fuzzy glow will ill-defined edges.

I think the main thing that makes a difference is seeing followed by transparency.

My best view was at 7.0 skies with Steve Kennedy's 28". The seeing was incredible that evening and it was amazing. The stellar core popped in and out and could start to make out the very faint barred spiral structure. To give you an idea how good the seeing was, we were able to resolve the double quasar and two widely spaced dim spots - 15 degrees above the horizon! That is a LOT of atmosphere. Howard, I think you were there too - one of the SSP star parties, when Kennedy was right next to you.


You bet I remember that great night at SSP! Even though I don't recall looking at IC 1296 then doesn't mean I didn't, so I'll have to check my notes. However, I do remember you and Steve observing the Double Quasar and being excited about seeing it so well while it was nearly as close to the northern horizon as it could get.

The first observing memory that pops up for me from that SSP was using 1440x to good effect on NGC 7026. This is one of my favorite PN's but it needs great seeing to really see the bi-polar shape and the dark lane well. I recall the ends of both lobes being very long and fading ever so gradually into the darkness that night.

#12 stevecoe

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 04:41 PM

I have notes on IC 1296 from three different observing sessions. The first is with my 13 inch f/5.6 Newtonain at 220X on a superb night at 7000 ft.

IC 1296 is the galaxy near the Ring nebula. It is faint, small, elongated 1.5X1 and somewhat brighter in the middle.

The other two times were with someone else's big scope. One is with David Fredericksen's 32 inch Dob and a 14mm eyepiece the galaxy was relatively easy and grew in size with averted vision. Again, this was at the SAC site about 40 miles from Flagstaff.

The other observation with Tom Clark's 36 inch Yard Scope. In moments of good seeing we could pick out a hint of detail, but not spiral arms, just a brighter core with a disk. It is good to have friends with big glass :grin:

Clear skies;
Steve Coe

#13 Bill Weir

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:18 PM

I have found that on several occasions if it is dark and transparent enough I've detected IC 1296 with my 12.5" dob. The first time I wasn't even even sure of the exact location so I did a sketch and that placed the very dim glow with the bighter core in exactly the right spot.

I think whether you can see these very low surface brightness objects has much to do with the eyes. Several years back when I heard of an observer having trouble with her observing eye I decided to see how well I could train my non observing eye. It was a dismal failure and it had to do with what I call "noise variations" between the two. With my non observing eye I can actually see stars as brighter and more pin point than with my observing eye. The problem is, is that there seems to be this general background noise (I don't know how else to describe it because it's very much like the noise in an image). My observing eye on the other hand can't see stars as faint as the other but the background I see seems very smooth. This helps me to detect very subtle differences in background brightness making very faint or small galaxies or very faint nebula pop right into view. Where as with the other eye these object might be invisible. Because I tend to drift more towards galasies and nebula it doesn't bother me that stars aren't as perfect as they could be. If I'm looking at clusters I still use the "Galaxy eye" because the background noisiness tends to detract from the view even though the stars are sharper. If I'm observing the Moon(yes I said that word here)I use a bino viewer to balance the sharp vs contrast thing out.

It's quite remarkable the difference between the two and I suggest people try and see if they have a similar experience. You might be thinking you are using the correct eye because stars are bright and sharp but it might not be the one to use when going for the really faint fuzzies.

Bill

#14 Starman1

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:02 AM

Has anyone glimpsed IC-1296, that faint galaxy next to the Ring Nebula? I have been trying for a while now, but can never seem to nail it. The one night I tried, I easily picked out a mag. 15.2 galaxy near NGC-7331 but when I went to the Ring and tried to see this mag. 14.8 object, no dice. I've even seen the central star of the ring but could not make out the galaxy. Has anyone else had better luck?

I first picked out IC1296 with an 8" SCT, but I realize now it was just the core and a tiny bit of the bar. In the 12.5", it's a small puff surrounding a linear structure, and best at high power. I see it every time I look for it if the sky is clear.

As for the mag.15.1-15.2 central star in M57, it's hard with little contrast against the nebula. I can spot it at low power in the 12.5" when the seeing is good. I never saw it in the 8", even though that scope reached some stars of magnitude 15.3-15.6 in various clusters at various sites.
Note that my skies are fairly dark at my regular sites--from magnitude 21.4 to 21.9, and that will make a difference.
The 4 companions to NGC7331 are somewhat difficult unless transparency is good.
More difficult than IC1296, though, is IC4617, the small galaxy in the outskirts of M13. IC1296 is easy in comparison.

#15 blb

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 09:41 AM

I have seen the central star once in my 10" dob at 300x, but never IC 1296. This is probibly due to the light pollution around here.

#16 BillFerris

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 10:10 AM

Here's an observation made with the 18 inch Obsession: IC 1296.

Bill in Flag

#17 Greatshot

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 02:35 AM

I swore up and down I juust made it out one time in my XT8 (without realizing it was there) and writing it off as just a galaxy at the edge of my vision. Wasn't until much later and I realized how faint it is that I doubted what I saw. Never did get a chance to try to prove it one way or another before I lost Lyra for the year. Ah well.

#18 Feidb

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 12:33 PM

Thanks to everyone for their great input! I think my best clue is going to be that smiley face star formation. I pulled it up on Megastar and sure enough, there was the smiley face. I am going to print out a closeup finder chart. Unfortunately, from my observing site, it'll be in the Las Vegas skyglow so it looks like I'll have to wait until next year to try again.

Quite an interesting variety of answers.

Thanks!

#19 blb

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 01:33 PM

Arn't there any observing sites that are west of Las Vegas? What about Sawmill Trailhead? It has a great elevation. I wish I could get that high up in NC. I know, I cheated and looked at the club web site. Sawmill may not be a good place, I don't know, but surely you can find a place west of Vagas.

#20 Feidb

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 09:48 AM

Sawmill is out of the equation now. However, there is the old weather station pullout a few miles down from Sawmill. However, at this time of the year, it is covered in snow and I'm not a big fan of the cold! Lee Canyon (where Sawmill and the other site are located) are summer observing spots. West of Las Vegas is not much of an option because over the hill is Pahrump. Plus, the further west or southwest you go, the closer to the LA light dome you get. Everything else is just too far of a drive for a night out. Thanks for asking though.

#21 lymorkiew45

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 11:21 PM

This is a toughie, and your best chance of seeing it, include having excellent skies, at least 10" of aperture, patience, and knowing exactly where to look. I have glimpsed it several times with my 12" scope next to a 14v magnitude star. The central star in The Ring is easier then seeing this galaxy. The galaxy appeared very faint, diffuse, and slightly round, barely visible, but obvious enough that I was actually seeing something...clear skies... :rainbow:

#22 Feidb

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:44 AM

I tried again from the weather station on Lee Canyon road in August, 2011 and no dice. Not even a hint of it. Skies were thick, though. Lots of dust and smoke. Tried again Sept 3rd from a much lower altitude and still nothing, skies still thick and dusty. Haven't given up yet but it sure is frustrating when I hear of people seeing it in an 8", yet some can barely see it in a 30".

#23 David Knisely

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 12:29 PM

At low to moderate powers and under a very dark sky, I have seen IC 1296 in my 10 inch Newtonian and even glimpsed it in my 9.25 inch SCT, but it was pretty darn marginal. It is somewhat easier in my 14 inch Newtonian, but it still isn't very bright. As for the central star in the ring, I have never gotten as much as even a hint of it at powers less than 300x. There is a sort of "central star illusion" caused by the brightness in the middle of the ring that is often seen at low powers, but it takes really high power and excellent seeing for the central star to appear. Even then, it often only appears for a brief moment before vanishing again. Clear skies to you.

#24 blb

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 02:23 PM

David,
How much magnification did it take to make the galaxy become visible with the 10" Newtonian.

#25 Starman1

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 02:52 PM

Buddy,
It was visible in an 8" SCT when the target was near the zenith.
Here's how you can ferret it out:
print or draw a map of the area with stars to slightly below you scope's limit.
Some of the on-line magnitude charts near the Ring go to magnitude 19.
Make sure you know where it is and how close to the ring it is.
That way, you'll know exactly WHERE to look for it.
Then, using higher than typical magnifications, use averted vision on the area where you know it is.
At first, it may appear like an extra star in the area. The galaxy does have a brighter core which can mimic a star. Under really good transparency, the star will appear slightly elongated or even streaked, indicating you've picked up the bar. Don't expect to see much more than that in less than 20".
It will wink in and out, but if you consult your chart, you'll know you caught a glimpse based upon where it is.
Try this chart:
here


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