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Apple switching to Intel?

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#26 BillFerris

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 09:45 AM

They seem to think that laptops are the coming rage and since I bought mine I seem to think the same. I have turned off my desktop since I rarely us it. SETI was the only thing running. I'm thinking our next computer will be a larger laptop. Odd how things change.


Yup, I got a laptop (Inspiron 6K) about a month ago and promptly donated my 6-year-old desktop PC to a local organization. With wireless Internet as a driving force and smokin' laptops costing $1K or less, there's no reason for most consumers not to get one.

Regards,

Bill in Flagstaff

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 01:37 AM

Well, they've already stated that you will need an Apple to run OS X even on Intel. However, they said they "will not prevent" anyone from running WINDOWS on an Apple system. So you may have to buy their hardware, but you won't be limited in software. That's ok with me. Their hardware has always (with few exceptions) been top notch quality.

#28 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 04:20 AM

Here's a link guys, check it out, it may prove my theory the Apple laptops will be the first to get the intel chips.
http://www.intel.com...1969.htm?page=6

#29 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 04:35 AM

Here's a link guys, check it out, it may prove my theory the Apple laptops will be the first to get the intel chips.
http://www.intel.com...1969.htm?page=6


Wow, that's it! The multi-core G5 was having some heat issues (no laptops) and also IBM was having problems hitting the speed mark they had targeted (same old story as with Moto). I had WONDERED what Intel had up it's sleeve to make Apple go to them on the eve of the multi-core G5!

Well, that's great! Looks like you're right and Intel is targeting the mobile audience first. Good strategy since the goal is to make laptops just as good as desktops without making them weight 20 lbs! With this, Apple gets the multi-core advantage AND higher clock speeds.

I just wonder how Intels aggressive update schedule will affect Apple's product announcements. Don't think that one major rev to the PowerBook line a year will do it in this competitive space. MAYBE twice a year as long as those updates are absolutely top of the line, but more realistically 3-4. Same with desktops. At least, I hope. We will see....but I am more and more reassured about this move by the day.

#30 rboe

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 10:19 AM

Just learned this morning that EquinoX is written in Code Warrior PowerPlant which will not translate well if at all to the Intel chipset. According to the same folks Microsoft Office, Virtual PC - probably all of Microsofts' software for the Mac is also written in PowerPlant.

The consenses is a total rewrite will be have to be done.

To top it off, graphic artists that have plugins written for photoshop (and others) are also looking at total rewrites when the PPC goes away.

Microsoft can afford to do this but little shops like EquinoX are looking at this as a show stopper. They don't have the time, energy or funds to develop their applications from scratch in a whole new programming environment.

So I wonder if there will be a run on the "classic" hardware so that folks can run software they can be productive in while alternatives are found or code is reworked.

Lot's of talk about redoing drivers for such things as USB to serial port hacks - things important to us at least.

If Apple wants to keep OS X off of Wintel hardware they may have to burn some silicone that will run PPC code to help coders out and help the Intel chipset with the old code. :shrug:

I fear we'll loose a lot of good programs as the authors decide to hang it up instead of switching.

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 02:03 PM

Their just going to add on another interpreter, something like Chinese to Smoke signals to English, english being 0s and 1s, this will just be plain SLOW and they will tell us it will run just fine, dont buy into the bull that it will run just fine, this is a major change, the problems and reprocutions will last 2 years, the only way out is to buy all new software and hardware (intel).

#32 rboe

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 03:45 PM

Even if you refuse and buy up the latest PPC offering from Apple at some point you'll have to upgrade. Even if you wait until the hardware fails and is no longer supported or sold on ebay. Oh well. This has gone on with each generation of change in computers.

But today the code can be so large (the author said EquinoX was something like 1.4 million lines of code plus headers) this transision is going to be harder and harder.

big heavy sigh.

#33 BoriSpider

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 04:27 PM

So you guys don't think this switch has
anything to do with China buying out IBM?

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 07:26 PM

It might

#35 rboe

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 09:57 PM

The Chinese company only purchased the laptops and PC part of IBM - there is still plenty of IBM left.

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 04:50 AM

Well, there already IS the PPC emulation layer. That's what pretty much the whole presentation Jobs ran during the announcement ran on. Performance will NOT be an issue even at first for software....Classic anyone? That still runs today and runs pretty darn fast. Even fast enough for 3d games to perform and be written for. Regardless, you won't have to worry about the PPC being "obsolete" for a good while. Final transition (read: all lines updated to Intel) in 2007. That means, if you bought a machine today, you still have two years (an eternity in computer time) before you would have to START to think about what to do for your next upgraded computer.

Apple's been warning developers not to use CodeWarrior for the past 5 years. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple provides tools in the meantime to help people port. Developers, especially those "smaller houses" are the lifeblood of Apple's community. Their "grassroots" efforts are very well known. I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about this issue just yet.

#37 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 04:58 AM

The Chinese company only purchased the laptops and PC part of IBM - there is still plenty of IBM left.


IBM's PC (consumer and corporate) business was the only part sold. The new company's name is Lenovo and they will be making the PC's with IBM's name on them for some time yet. The whole design and manufacturing team from IBm transitioned as well so the product even should be the same. The rest of IBM (for now) is still IBM. IBM's been mulling around getting out of the PC market for some time. The margins aren't there anymore and IBM's bread and butter has always been the big iron and services.

#38 GaryB

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 12:32 PM

This is an interesting switch. I see a lot of dual boot (or more) machines coming down the pipes. Interestingly enough, as the PC market is leaving the PowerPC architecture, the console devs are picking it up. Both Microsoft *and* Sony are opting for PowerPC based architectures (though Sony's setup has the most long term promise. Google "Cell PS3".)

#39 Victor Kennedy

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 04:27 PM

Here is some interesting speculation.

#40 Mike Casey

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 09:54 PM

Here is some interesting speculation.

;) Cringely writes "At first, I thought that Steve Jobs was somehow taking up the challenge of making users believe war was peace and hate was love simply to show that he could do it." That statement fits Jobs to a micro-T.

Apple/Intel, er, Intel/Apple is an attention-grabbing idea, but I don’t think that (theoretical) combo would be enough to knock MS out of the box. Gates et al have way too much of a head start and Win is installed on just about EVERY computer in the world. AND, what’s to prevent MS from picking up AMD? Interesting times we live in, eh?

#41 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 01:52 AM

Well, that is interesting. I must admit, I thought there was no WAY that Apple would switch to Intel, but it happened. I wondered why they would switch with multi-core processors coming, etc. Anyone heard of the Pentium Extreme? Recently announced multicore processor STARTING at 3.2ghz? IBM is STARTING the multicore G5 at 2.2ghz from what I'd read.

That's the ticket folks, multicore processors at clock rates that both IBM and Moto have not been able to deliver on. The PPC is a great architecture and also lends itself well to emulation. Thus, it's a perfect fit for the console market as well as PC's.

The problem is that the manufacturers just have not been able to deliver. The PPC was FAR ahead of the Pentium when it first came out. For a good period, you could only get a 133 and then a 233mhz when the PPC was up at 350 and 400. Then, Moto died at the 500 mhz barrier (G3, I believe?) Apple has switched to IBM mostly and promised per them to have 3Ghz well before the end of last year. Not even close.

Again, I think this will probably be a great thing. The Mac is the OS, not the hardware. What concerns me is exactly what the link article brought up. Why announce a year in advance when you ahve systems (obviously working) with the PPC compatibility layer, apps today will run (supposedly) so why the delay? Wont' people simply put off buying a machine (unless they absolutely HAVE too) and cause Apple to lose TONS of revenue? No, something tells me that something's up here. Perhaps a surprise announcement in August or October? Something like..."the technology is SO great and SO easy that we have it ready now, ahead of schedule. SURPRISE!" I don't know...that part of it just doesn't make sense to me at all. Guess we will see. Don't think Jobs and the board are so daft at business that they wouldn't see that issue so there must be something I don't know, realize or both. :)

#42 rboe

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 09:01 AM

Sometimes you wonder if Steve Jobs did it just to put a fire under IBM's bum. Timing is very odd though.

#43 Greg K.

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 05:17 PM

From what I'm seeing, PowerPlant seems to be the defacto standard for Mac development. I have a feeling that getting it ported to Intel will be a crucial part of the migration strategy, which should actually make it easier to port apps in the long run. We shall see.

#44 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 01:54 AM

From what I'm seeing, PowerPlant seems to be the defacto standard for Mac development. I have a feeling that getting it ported to Intel will be a crucial part of the migration strategy, which should actually make it easier to port apps in the long run. We shall see.


CodeWarrior (Powerplant is part of it) WAS definitely the number 1 or 2 environment prior to OS X, with Apple's MPW behind or in front. Many people did prefer Codewarrior.

When Apple introduced OSX, they introduced Xcode. This was an environment to help with Carbon but more, to help with Cocoa (native) programming. Also remember, OS X was based on NexStep, when was always cross platform. Apple had crossplatform and crossdevelopment as the plan from the beginning, but heavyweights like Adobe kept them frompressing ahead. Thus they just kept developing in the background and asking people to use Xcode as part of their "just in case" strategy. Well, "just in case" became the defacto standard, or will be in 2006.

Again, I wouldn't worry. If you watch the keynote address you can see Office, Photoshop, etc. all run "native" on PPC code on the 3.6ghz P4 box. They launched and behaved just like they do on my G5. That's the point. This "Rosetta" will let all the current PPC apps still run on the Intel box, but more transparently than Classic still lets you run OS9. OS9 still performs great even though it's an emulation environment running as an app. Rosetta performs better than Classic according to some developers I know that have "hands on" experience right now. They haven't tried 3d games like Doom3 yet, but they say they have reason to believe it will perform about the same as on a high end G5 right now. Considering 3.6ghz to 2.5ghz speed difference that isn't bad at all! And by this time next year I'm sure 3.6 ghz will be bettered. Not to mention that dual core processors will give you TWO processors to run on. If Apple follows their current model, their high and medium machines would be running TWO dual cored procs. So that's effectively 4 processors and will be fully taken advantage of as the Unix core utilizes extra processors FAR more efficiently than Windows does (at least today) I really wouldnt' worry about PPC code performance at this point. And, developers can pretty easily convert their Codewarrior products to Xcode and then be set. It's not a totally different environment. Copy the code, learn the specialized modules, no big deal. And BTW, Xcode is much better documented and supported than CodeWarrior is right now.

#45 Victor Kennedy

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 07:55 AM

What? No doom ‘n gloom? Where‘s the fun in that? Oh well, I guess I‘d better get my doom ‘n gloom hit here .

#46 rboe

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 09:10 AM

According to Darryl; the writer of EquinoX, EquinoX crashes Rosetta so there is a bit of doom and gloom there. From him I also got the impression there is a ton of code that will not convert to Xcode. Simply no equivelent.

I took a C class a while back that used CodeWarrior but I just scratched the surface and have no exposure to Xcode at all.

They have a couple years to iron out the wrinkles. It'll be interesting to see if they can.

#47 Mike Casey

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 03:33 PM

What? No doom ‘n gloom? Where‘s the fun in that? Oh well, I guess I‘d better get my doom ‘n gloom hit here .

:D In part 6 of Dvorak’s scenario he writes “Spyware and viruses emerge on the Mac.”

“It is easy to predict what will happen after that. To many Mac aficionados the uniqueness of the platform will be lost forever, and who knows what they'll do for fun. But one thing is for sure: The big problem that Mac users will have to face is the emergence of virus code and spyware aimed at them. It's possible that the Mac users going into this new world will be like the American Indians when confronted by smallpox-contaminated blankets. Most Mac users are ignorant about this plague and ill prepared to deal with it.”

:cool: Groovy! Many seem to think Apple OS’ are safer than Win OS’, but this is only because Win is such a huge target that hackers naturally write for it. If Apple sold as many OS’ as MS, then I believe it would suffer the same plague of virus and spyware that has long been familiar to win users.

I hope all the Macaholics enjoy their nice warm smallpox-contaminated blankets.

:bow:

#48 rboe

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 05:21 PM

Sadly, this is oh so true. :ohmy:

#49 Guest_**DONOTDELETE**_*

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 04:08 AM

What? No doom ‘n gloom? Where‘s the fun in that? Oh well, I guess I‘d better get my doom ‘n gloom hit here .

:D In part 6 of Dvorak’s scenario he writes “Spyware and viruses emerge on the Mac.”

“It is easy to predict what will happen after that. To many Mac aficionados the uniqueness of the platform will be lost forever, and who knows what they'll do for fun. But one thing is for sure: The big problem that Mac users will have to face is the emergence of virus code and spyware aimed at them. It's possible that the Mac users going into this new world will be like the American Indians when confronted by smallpox-contaminated blankets. Most Mac users are ignorant about this plague and ill prepared to deal with it.”

:cool: Groovy! Many seem to think Apple OS’ are safer than Win OS’, but this is only because Win is such a huge target that hackers naturally write for it. If Apple sold as many OS’ as MS, then I believe it would suffer the same plague of virus and spyware that has long been familiar to win users.

I hope all the Macaholics enjoy their nice warm smallpox-contaminated blankets.

:bow:


Oh please. :) Linux has a fairly decent marketshare although not as big as Apple's by far, and they aren't torn apart by viruses either. Yes, some will happen and Apple will have to be quick to respond, but guys, Unix is just far superior when it comes to security and the ability to lock it down and protect it. Things will change that's for sure. I don't think OS X will challenge Windows for dominance any time soon, if at all, but it's nice to see how many people hope for the worst when it comes to products with a fruit on the label. :)

I too have been wondering how long will be before OS X intel is hacked to work on my Dell or IBM. Would agree it probably won't be long. but without support and supported updates, those systems WOULD be highly vulnerable, so we'll have to see how that goes. Don't think Apple will do any worse than Microsoft when it comes to security and updating. Right now, almost all vulnerabilities are known about ahead of time. What lets them run wild is updates that aren't available in time (rare these days) and people that don't update. Mac users will certainly have to get in gear with the updating, but fortunately, Apple's current automated update system is a even a bit easier to use than Microsoft's web solution. They'll have to come up with something like WUS (or SUS) though to play with the "big boys." Apple's been pretty good with the quick security updates though so it shouldn't be a big deal, at least unless and until they start selling a package to install OSX on different types of systems. But if they do that, by then they'll be much bigger and better suited to handle it.

That's a shame that the current Rosetta breaks EquinoX. Hopefully that will be fixed. And, apps will end up being ported to Xcode or others will take their place just as has always happened. I'm not too worried. Interestinlgly, the VAR contacts I deal with regularly seem to actually be excited about the prospect of selling multicolored logo computer products to businesses for the first time I've ever heard.

Am doing an RFP for my desktop/laptop hardware standards and was actually asked if I wanted to explore adding Apple! I laughed and said "not this time, at least" but kind of interesting feedback from that community. Never thought I'd see the day.

Time will tell!

#50 Mike Casey

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 12:56 PM

Does Apple's Intel Desktop Move Threaten Linux Desktop, Longhorn?

;) “The Mac community is in an uproar over Apple moving the Mac to Intel processors, but it's the Linux desktop and Longhorn programmers who should be reaching for the aspirin.”

Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols opinion here.

'Mactel' Desktops May Offer Triple-Threat OS:

eWeek article here.


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