There were 3 different companies:
Intes
Intes Micro
Intes Alter
At least one of the MCTs (6" f/15) that Astronomics showed was Intes Alter - and that one sold.
I have an Intes 6" f/12 MCT. The optics are more than acceptable, and the scope is rugged - a common virtue of the Russian-built OTAs.
Intes Micro
Started by
Bart
, Apr 18 2011 02:07 PM
47 replies to this topic
#27
Waxing Gibbous
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Posted 20 April 2011 - 08:42 AM
"This is the voice of rumour control. Here are the facts...." 
Intes Micro (spaced, hyphenated or runtogether they are the same company) grew out of Intes Alter which went tots-up about 10 years ago (Why I don't know but they did. History.)
You will not be able to tell a Micro from an Alter without a program.
I-M (I M, IM) ARE still making scopes: Mak-Newts, and Mak-Casses. They are available here in Australia from a company called AEC and in Japan from Kasai Trading.
There are other dealers throughout Europe.
APM does NOT make I-M scopes. I-M makes I-M scopes. Are we clear?
Good.
APM DO use optics provided by I-M to build their own Maks which I believe are very good indeed.
They do not have any exclusive rights to IM scopes worldwide,(or LZOS or LOMO glass for that matter) although they may in Europe
BTW: All three companies disclaim any 'exclusive' worldwide arrangements.
If you're Russian is good enough, you can call them and ask them.
IM scopes are very expensive because:
-They are precision made using hi-tec gizmos and hand finishing by people that know how to make compound telecopes better than almost anyone.
(Astronomy was an officially encouraged and sponsored hobby by the Soviet state as far back as the 1930s. Ruskies have been making great scopes for a long time).
-Moscow is in the middle of no-where and shipping by ground is unfeasible. So they all go by air. Their boxes could be lighter though.
-Moscow is further away from anywhere than just about anywhere else (you will know this if your flight to London is cancelled ) See above re. cost!
Dealers outside Europe will pay a very high cost for transport (as Astronomics found out
) and IM are pretty finicky about shipping them 'second class'. If the scope is damaged in transit due to sub-standard packaging, they have to foot the bill. I-M is, by commercial standards, a small operation and can't afford too many unecessary repairs.
-They have superb optics which are not cheap (I'm sure I mentioned this earlier but its worth repeating).
Stick a 7" IM next to an 8 or 9" Celestron or Meade and, no matter how many equations you run to prove that 7" is not as good as 8 or 9, the superiority of the IM optics is instantly apparent. My 715D easily trumps a Meade 8"ACF or C9.25 for detail (a smaller image true, but what there is has greater definition).
Their mechanics may seem a bit 'industrial' but they are solid as rocks and everything fits nicely - at least on those I've seen.
Knowledge, skill, time and effort are put into these scopes in a way that large Chinese manufacturers (Meade, Celestron Skywatcher) simply can't afford.
Their availibility and price reflect this.
Intes Micro (spaced, hyphenated or runtogether they are the same company) grew out of Intes Alter which went tots-up about 10 years ago (Why I don't know but they did. History.)
You will not be able to tell a Micro from an Alter without a program.
I-M (I M, IM) ARE still making scopes: Mak-Newts, and Mak-Casses. They are available here in Australia from a company called AEC and in Japan from Kasai Trading.
There are other dealers throughout Europe.
APM does NOT make I-M scopes. I-M makes I-M scopes. Are we clear?
Good.
APM DO use optics provided by I-M to build their own Maks which I believe are very good indeed.
They do not have any exclusive rights to IM scopes worldwide,(or LZOS or LOMO glass for that matter) although they may in Europe
BTW: All three companies disclaim any 'exclusive' worldwide arrangements.
If you're Russian is good enough, you can call them and ask them.
IM scopes are very expensive because:
-They are precision made using hi-tec gizmos and hand finishing by people that know how to make compound telecopes better than almost anyone.
(Astronomy was an officially encouraged and sponsored hobby by the Soviet state as far back as the 1930s. Ruskies have been making great scopes for a long time).
-Moscow is in the middle of no-where and shipping by ground is unfeasible. So they all go by air. Their boxes could be lighter though.
-Moscow is further away from anywhere than just about anywhere else (you will know this if your flight to London is cancelled
) See above re. cost!Dealers outside Europe will pay a very high cost for transport (as Astronomics found out
) and IM are pretty finicky about shipping them 'second class'. If the scope is damaged in transit due to sub-standard packaging, they have to foot the bill. I-M is, by commercial standards, a small operation and can't afford too many unecessary repairs.-They have superb optics which are not cheap (I'm sure I mentioned this earlier but its worth repeating).
Stick a 7" IM next to an 8 or 9" Celestron or Meade and, no matter how many equations you run to prove that 7" is not as good as 8 or 9, the superiority of the IM optics is instantly apparent. My 715D easily trumps a Meade 8"ACF or C9.25 for detail (a smaller image true, but what there is has greater definition).
Their mechanics may seem a bit 'industrial' but they are solid as rocks and everything fits nicely - at least on those I've seen.
Knowledge, skill, time and effort are put into these scopes in a way that large Chinese manufacturers (Meade, Celestron Skywatcher) simply can't afford.
Their availibility and price reflect this.
#28
NHRob
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Posted 20 April 2011 - 08:58 AM
"Stick a 7" IM next to an 8 or 9" Celestron or Meade and, no matter how many equations you run to prove that 7" is not as good as 8 or 9, the superiority of the IM optics is instantly apparent. My 715D easily trumps a Meade 8"ACF or C9.25 for detail (a smaller image true, but what there is has greater definition). "
Nonsense! It's been pointed out many times in this forum that aperture is king!
Nonsense! It's been pointed out many times in this forum that aperture is king!
#29
Bill Barlow
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Posted 20 April 2011 - 09:37 AM
I tend to believe Waxing Gibbous' claims since I've witnessed them with my own eyes, comparing a M703 to a C8. The Intes 7" MCT killed the C8 on image sharpness/detail/contrast on Jupiter and Saturn. I believe he is talking about image detail/sharpness, not light grasp..which aperture is king.
Bill
Bill
#30
davidpitre
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Posted 20 April 2011 - 09:55 AM
Bill,
I think Rob was being facetious.
I think Rob was being facetious.
#31
dscarpa
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Skylab
Posted 20 April 2011 - 12:32 PM
Maybe more light in the first defraction ring gets blurred in poor seeing effecting the image of a planet or the Moon. That's just a guess. Under very good seeing my IM15 and C9.25 are pretty much tied on lunar-planetary with the mak having more contrast and the SCT better for color. When seeing is excellent and I can use 40X-50X per inch in it the C9.25 pulls ahead of the IM715. David
#32
NHRob
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Posted 20 April 2011 - 11:02 PM
Bill,
I think Rob was being facetious.
Yes, I was. Sorry.
#33
APM M.Ludes
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Posted 21 April 2011 - 09:45 AM
Hi Waxing,
thanks for your listing, but there are several wrong info, which I like to fix, if you allow:
1, there have never excist a company called INTES ALTER.
2, first Russian Maksutov making company was INTES , here Boss Victor Vasiliev ( still my old friend, drunk some weeks ago with him some fine russian Vodka in Moscow). He did maschine work when he started his company and was asked from Russian Goverment for making some telescopes. In 1989 it coursed the Born of INTES Manufacturing company.
Vladimir Zhiganov , Boss of INTES MICRO , renamed later into Opsys LTD, which is here Name till today , is a mechanical engineer who started to work at INTES and left the company in 1991 to open the competitive company, named INTES MICRO Co. Ltd. for many years and they called here Telescopes till the year 2001 " ALTER" ( either ALTER M for Maksutov Cassegrain or ALTER MN for Maksutov Newtonian). In Begin of the year 2002 they called the telescopes only M or MN , Like M603 In the year 2003 the company renamed to INTES MICRO/OPSYS and in the year 2004 they renamed to Opsys only which here name till today.
Shortly before INTES ( Victor Vasiliev) closed the doors, workers left INTES and foundet up with STF ( I have no Idea if they still in business, have no contact to them since many years ) and when INTES finaly closed Mr. Sankowitsch started his own Business, called till today Santel. Santel produced high end mirrors up to about 600 mm and some Maks 6" and 9" ( same modell as INTES did )and producing till today in western countrys mostly unknown high end 400 mm F/2.5 Astrograph , called SANTEL 400 ( see infos here http://downloads.hin...2010/349171.pdf )with giant 80 mm corrected CCD field. Such Astrograph are used by the University of Ekaterinburg and the Sternberg Institut ( State University of Moscow ) and operating in a net work in Russia and starting soon to work in Canary Island for professional wide field imaging ( super nove, meterorids, asteroids etc. ). LOMO also made a few Maksutov Telescopes up to 200 mm and some optical sets for us up to 300 mm.
These days in 2011 , to my knowledge , only Opsys ( called by you all INTES MICRO) is the only company who still produce Maksutov Telescopes in Russia ( not anylonger here main business, the real money they earn from industrial and goverment orders for other things )
APM does not have any exclusiv you are right , but APM contnue to sell telescopes and optics and accessories and we build our own scopes using such optics. APM has no exclusiv for LOMO or LZOS , right, but we have gentlem agreements, which working ,how well you find out , if you try to place a apo order to LOMO or LZOS :-).
Opsys ( INTES MICRO ) scopes are not very expensive, but they are also not cheap. If you think they are very expensive, name us another company worldwide who make such high quality Maks for less price , there are non ! Zeiss Maks 150 and 180 or Questar cost a lot more , so INTES MICRO is for the quality they deliver Inexpensive.
Shipping cost of Opsys ( INTES MICRO ) is NOT expensive. We pay the same shipping rate for shipments from Japan or other asian countrys. Expensive, to expensive it gets if you want to buy 1 by 1 or 2,3 scopes a time, but not due Opsys or shipping freight, but due the export licence they need to buy for any single shipment, no matter how small it is, and such licence cost roughly $ 1,000 per shipment . This Opsys add to the shipping cost of course. If you buy a container of Opsys scopes by seafreight ( like many dealers doing for chinese scopes ) then shipping cost about equal.
I discussed this issue 3 weeks with Opsys and they told me , its more paper work for them to ship by container , so they try not do it, but if your order is large enough foir a container, they will agree and do it. However which dealer is going to order a container of Maksutov Telescopes ?
A real bad thing in Russia is to supply afterwords sales service , due russian import /export laws. Russian customs have a list of all licened export goods and they know excactly what cost what. So if somebody wants to return a telescope or a apo lens for repair or service, the manufactur has tons of paper work to do and give to russian customs the value of the product for security . When its getting exported again, it takes the manufactur to get this money back sometimes a half year or longer. Thats why I take expensive apo lenses for repair in my handlaguage and bring them over personaly and pick them up personaly again, which happens luckily very very seldom. Think about sending them a $ 20,000 lens fo service, they have to spend $ 20,000 as loan for security to customs for a half year.
I hope this input gives you a better impression why dealers going more and more away from this fine scopes and optics, to much trouble to deal with.
thanks for your listing, but there are several wrong info, which I like to fix, if you allow:
1, there have never excist a company called INTES ALTER.
2, first Russian Maksutov making company was INTES , here Boss Victor Vasiliev ( still my old friend, drunk some weeks ago with him some fine russian Vodka in Moscow). He did maschine work when he started his company and was asked from Russian Goverment for making some telescopes. In 1989 it coursed the Born of INTES Manufacturing company.
Vladimir Zhiganov , Boss of INTES MICRO , renamed later into Opsys LTD, which is here Name till today , is a mechanical engineer who started to work at INTES and left the company in 1991 to open the competitive company, named INTES MICRO Co. Ltd. for many years and they called here Telescopes till the year 2001 " ALTER" ( either ALTER M for Maksutov Cassegrain or ALTER MN for Maksutov Newtonian). In Begin of the year 2002 they called the telescopes only M or MN , Like M603 In the year 2003 the company renamed to INTES MICRO/OPSYS and in the year 2004 they renamed to Opsys only which here name till today.
Shortly before INTES ( Victor Vasiliev) closed the doors, workers left INTES and foundet up with STF ( I have no Idea if they still in business, have no contact to them since many years ) and when INTES finaly closed Mr. Sankowitsch started his own Business, called till today Santel. Santel produced high end mirrors up to about 600 mm and some Maks 6" and 9" ( same modell as INTES did )and producing till today in western countrys mostly unknown high end 400 mm F/2.5 Astrograph , called SANTEL 400 ( see infos here http://downloads.hin...2010/349171.pdf )with giant 80 mm corrected CCD field. Such Astrograph are used by the University of Ekaterinburg and the Sternberg Institut ( State University of Moscow ) and operating in a net work in Russia and starting soon to work in Canary Island for professional wide field imaging ( super nove, meterorids, asteroids etc. ). LOMO also made a few Maksutov Telescopes up to 200 mm and some optical sets for us up to 300 mm.
These days in 2011 , to my knowledge , only Opsys ( called by you all INTES MICRO) is the only company who still produce Maksutov Telescopes in Russia ( not anylonger here main business, the real money they earn from industrial and goverment orders for other things )
APM does not have any exclusiv you are right , but APM contnue to sell telescopes and optics and accessories and we build our own scopes using such optics. APM has no exclusiv for LOMO or LZOS , right, but we have gentlem agreements, which working ,how well you find out , if you try to place a apo order to LOMO or LZOS :-).
Opsys ( INTES MICRO ) scopes are not very expensive, but they are also not cheap. If you think they are very expensive, name us another company worldwide who make such high quality Maks for less price , there are non ! Zeiss Maks 150 and 180 or Questar cost a lot more , so INTES MICRO is for the quality they deliver Inexpensive.
Shipping cost of Opsys ( INTES MICRO ) is NOT expensive. We pay the same shipping rate for shipments from Japan or other asian countrys. Expensive, to expensive it gets if you want to buy 1 by 1 or 2,3 scopes a time, but not due Opsys or shipping freight, but due the export licence they need to buy for any single shipment, no matter how small it is, and such licence cost roughly $ 1,000 per shipment . This Opsys add to the shipping cost of course. If you buy a container of Opsys scopes by seafreight ( like many dealers doing for chinese scopes ) then shipping cost about equal.
I discussed this issue 3 weeks with Opsys and they told me , its more paper work for them to ship by container , so they try not do it, but if your order is large enough foir a container, they will agree and do it. However which dealer is going to order a container of Maksutov Telescopes ?
A real bad thing in Russia is to supply afterwords sales service , due russian import /export laws. Russian customs have a list of all licened export goods and they know excactly what cost what. So if somebody wants to return a telescope or a apo lens for repair or service, the manufactur has tons of paper work to do and give to russian customs the value of the product for security . When its getting exported again, it takes the manufactur to get this money back sometimes a half year or longer. Thats why I take expensive apo lenses for repair in my handlaguage and bring them over personaly and pick them up personaly again, which happens luckily very very seldom. Think about sending them a $ 20,000 lens fo service, they have to spend $ 20,000 as loan for security to customs for a half year.
I hope this input gives you a better impression why dealers going more and more away from this fine scopes and optics, to much trouble to deal with.
#34
Mark Costello
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Soyuz
Posted 21 April 2011 - 04:52 PM
Thanks, Markus, for the informative post. This looks like a good explanation for the fact that no one in the U.S. deals in the Intes Micro Maksutov telescopes (MCTs). And yes, you're right, compared to the MCTs of any other premium scope makers, the Intes Micro MCTs were very low priced. It seems that if I wanted a Cassegrain type scope to complement my achromatic refractor, then my choices are to get a Schmidt Cassegrain telescope (SCT), an Orion MCT, one of those Vixen Cassegrains, or a Takahashi Mewlon. Well, I'm going to be waiting a long while to make that purchase (a matter of financial priorities) and maybe things might change by then. :o
Cheers,
Cheers,
#35
Bill Barlow
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Posted 21 April 2011 - 05:14 PM
Hi Markus...
Thank you for the very interesting background story on how Intes Micro came to be. The prices on their MC/MN OTA's seem high because most Americans are spoiled by the prices Celestron, Meade and Orion charge for their telescopes.
The more time I observe with the Intes Micro MCT's, the more I appreciate their fine craftsmanship and expertise in figuring the optics in these scopes. Someday maybe I will get the 10" f/10 MCT.
Bill
Thank you for the very interesting background story on how Intes Micro came to be. The prices on their MC/MN OTA's seem high because most Americans are spoiled by the prices Celestron, Meade and Orion charge for their telescopes.
The more time I observe with the Intes Micro MCT's, the more I appreciate their fine craftsmanship and expertise in figuring the optics in these scopes. Someday maybe I will get the 10" f/10 MCT.
Bill
#36
Phil Frederick
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Apollo
Posted 21 April 2011 - 06:57 PM
Hello Markus,
I'd like to pass on my thanks as well for the illumination!
But I'm still a bit confused by one thing. I have a current model M500 and an M6511 that was manufactured in 2008. Both these scopes have "ALTER" on the tag on the back plate of the scope. Has the current "Intes-Micro" company just maintained that "ALTER" label for consistency or is there another reason?
Materially, it doesn't really matter as they're great scopes, but I AM curious about the labelling.
CS!
Phil
I'd like to pass on my thanks as well for the illumination!
But I'm still a bit confused by one thing. I have a current model M500 and an M6511 that was manufactured in 2008. Both these scopes have "ALTER" on the tag on the back plate of the scope. Has the current "Intes-Micro" company just maintained that "ALTER" label for consistency or is there another reason?
Materially, it doesn't really matter as they're great scopes, but I AM curious about the labelling.
CS!
Phil
#37
Alan A.
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Posted 21 April 2011 - 07:01 PM
Superb post Markus, thank you for laying out the details.
#38
DanNie
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Lift Off
Posted 21 April 2011 - 09:46 PM
Please see my PM regarding MN76. Thanks.
#39
Waxing Gibbous
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Posted 21 April 2011 - 10:05 PM
I stand corrected.
Thanks for clarifying.
BTW:
I'd kick up a stink if I were paying the same shipping to Germany as a dealer in Japan!
Thanks for clarifying.
BTW:
I'd kick up a stink if I were paying the same shipping to Germany as a dealer in Japan!
#40
Waxing Gibbous
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#41
APM M.Ludes
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Posted 23 April 2011 - 07:48 AM
Hi Phil
past few years we sold not many such scopes , only by single orders, chinese took over that business.
I have seen the last time the Term " ALTER" as reported in my last mail. If you have one from 2008, then only the russians know why , sorry, have no other infos, but of course I could ask them, if thats your wish
past few years we sold not many such scopes , only by single orders, chinese took over that business.
I have seen the last time the Term " ALTER" as reported in my last mail. If you have one from 2008, then only the russians know why , sorry, have no other infos, but of course I could ask them, if thats your wish
#42
Bill Barlow
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Fly Me to the Moon
Posted 23 April 2011 - 10:06 AM
hi phil..
I believe that the "Alter" word on the back label of these scopes just means a shorter contraction for "astronomical telescopes and accessories". I think all scopes have this on the rear cell tag with the telescope model number. I would think that "Astex" would be a better phrase to use. Take care..
Bill
I believe that the "Alter" word on the back label of these scopes just means a shorter contraction for "astronomical telescopes and accessories". I think all scopes have this on the rear cell tag with the telescope model number. I would think that "Astex" would be a better phrase to use. Take care..
Bill
#43
Phil Frederick
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Apollo
Posted 23 April 2011 - 11:34 AM
Thanks Bill and Markus. Seems the whole Russian "name game" is a bit convoluted and at the least somewhat confusing, but what the heck, they make nice scopes! 
Cheers!
Cheers!
#44
thesubwaypusher
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Apollo
Posted 23 April 2011 - 11:59 AM
I would like to get the 10" f/10 MCT scope if I win the lottery.
Bill
Pardon me Bill, but aren't you a famous weatherman?
Chris
#45
Guilherme1
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Posted 23 April 2011 - 02:13 PM
HI,
I have talked a lot of times with Prof. Petr Zakaznov, the Master Optician at Intes Micro.
I learned a lot with him. A nice person.
About the name "Alter", he said when former Intes workers started Intes-Micro factory, they wanted to name diferently their telescopes, to sepparate them from former Intes Telescopes(to make clear it was a different product. They used the name "ALTER" to distinguish Intes-Micro telescopes from Intes telescopes. So, "Alter" means something like "OTHER", in latinized form. Meaning "other Telescope product"(It's the same latinized word used in "Alter Ego").
I also liked very much the excellent explanations by Markus Ludes.
Regards
Guilherme de Almeida
I have talked a lot of times with Prof. Petr Zakaznov, the Master Optician at Intes Micro.
I learned a lot with him. A nice person.
About the name "Alter", he said when former Intes workers started Intes-Micro factory, they wanted to name diferently their telescopes, to sepparate them from former Intes Telescopes(to make clear it was a different product. They used the name "ALTER" to distinguish Intes-Micro telescopes from Intes telescopes. So, "Alter" means something like "OTHER", in latinized form. Meaning "other Telescope product"(It's the same latinized word used in "Alter Ego").
I also liked very much the excellent explanations by Markus Ludes.
Regards
Guilherme de Almeida
#46
Jim7728
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Voyager 1
Posted 23 April 2011 - 07:10 PM
Thank you for the ALTER name origin, Guilherme.
And Mark, for the very interesting background history Of I-M.
And Mark, for the very interesting background history Of I-M.
#47
Bill Barlow
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Posted 23 April 2011 - 08:31 PM
Hi Chris.
Yes, I am meteorologist, but famous, probably not. I have been forecasting the weather now for over 33 years, mostly dealing with convection/thunderstorms. It is an interesting job since the weather changes day to day, but the rotating shift work is wearing me down a bit at my age (56). I currently work for the National Weather Service at the Aviation Weather Center in Kansas City. Take care..
Bill
Yes, I am meteorologist, but famous, probably not. I have been forecasting the weather now for over 33 years, mostly dealing with convection/thunderstorms. It is an interesting job since the weather changes day to day, but the rotating shift work is wearing me down a bit at my age (56). I currently work for the National Weather Service at the Aviation Weather Center in Kansas City. Take care..
Bill
#48
Phil Frederick
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Apollo
Posted 23 April 2011 - 11:18 PM
Hi Bill,
Not meaning to hijack this thread, and knowing you were with the NWS, I just wanted to thank you along with all your colleagues for the great and difficult job you do.
Trying to understand what we're seeing when we train a scope on the skies is difficult enough, but watching a weatherfront screaming across the skies and trying to keep folks safe is beyond comprehension. Thanks for what you all do!!!
Phil, Seattle (and we have our share of rough weather but at least don't have to endure the horrific tornados that many of you in the midwest have to deal with).
Not meaning to hijack this thread, and knowing you were with the NWS, I just wanted to thank you along with all your colleagues for the great and difficult job you do.
Trying to understand what we're seeing when we train a scope on the skies is difficult enough, but watching a weatherfront screaming across the skies and trying to keep folks safe is beyond comprehension. Thanks for what you all do!!!
Phil, Seattle (and we have our share of rough weather but at least don't have to endure the horrific tornados that many of you in the midwest have to deal with).
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