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Better than any Apo refractor in its class

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#1 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 08:36 PM

After spending my entire evening looking at double and multiple stars through this Ceravolo HD145 till 3am, I don't think I have ever tested any apo refractor in memory that equals it in terms of sheer optical quality. I mean the stars just look so dang perfect, it's incredible. It appeared to have no coma, no turned edges, no chromatic aberration, no under correction, no over correction, no astigmatism, no zones, no spherical aberration to speak of. It produced absolutely flawless optical performance in a package that weighs about a mere 12 pounds. It has an obstruction of some 17% that might as well not even be factored in, yet can show what appears to be a 2 degree unvignetted true field of view that literally produces pin pricks all the way out to the very edge of the field-stop while using a quality wide field eyepiece. To me, it doesn't get any better from any brand of telescope. It's just ultra high contrast. In my opinion, the HD145 scores a perfect 10 in the optics dapartment and #1 on my list of telescope systems for its aperture class, even apo refractors costing two to three times as much.

What my friend Joe did was made his own cooling system which simply attaches to the focuser. We point the OTA upward and the fan sucks the warmer air rising up the OTA. All I could think about was splitting double stars and that's exactly what we did. Multiple star after multiple star, it just devoured them with perfect text book images only limited by atmosphere from time to time. It was really an exhilarating experience for me. I couldn't help but express how sensational it performed. Being such a rare telescope, I told my observing buddy it was like discovering a rare dinosaur bone in Arizona. Joe indicated there were only something like 30 units of the HD145's and 16 units of the HD216's in existance.

We have two HD145's and both are flawless performers. The theoretical limit is about .8 arc second resolution and it met that criteria with ease on a couple of doubles we tested. Contrast was stunning to say the least. We used a Nagler 2.5mm at almost 350x and ran out of magnification. I may have to use a barlow with a 3.5 Nagler I was scribbling notes during each observation and was continually beside myself at the quality. All the stars just snapped right into perfect focus like tiny pinballs with a couple of faint and ill-defined defraction rings. Currently I'm still making attempts to do a head to head comparison with a TEC140, so that should be a perfect match but my prediction is the HD145 will prevail because there seems to be no limit on how clear double stars are and it's fully apochromatic. I have never been a big stickler to hammer a scope just because it has some false color, but I admit than when you are pushing stars to the absolute limits, having a completely color free image is going to have an edge on double stars at some point, especially with optics as good as these HD145's. Altair for example was etched pure white.

We recently compared one of them to a particular 5" apo and everyone agreed overwhelmingly that the Caravolo had noticebly better contrast but right now all I want to do is a head to head with a TEC140 to even things up a bit. The HD145 isn't too hard to acclimate as long as the focuser is left wide open before observing but the fan helps. :o The tube rides on a G11G using a GM8 tripod at the lowest setting. The tube is easily rotated to the desired position without sliding down thanks to the help of a Telrad base that behaves like a slide on top of the tube ring and it's a sit down telescope.

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#2 CounterWeight

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 08:47 PM

Wow Daniel, that sounds like a fun night. :) ! Thanks for the great report, look forewards to your head to head with the TEC.

#3 The Mekon

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 09:06 PM

A measure of contrast should note how clearly a scope will split uneven doubles. I have no doubt the 145mm Cerevalo is a gem of a scope, but will it pick up Enceladus against the disc of Saturn? A 130 Apo can do this.

#4 jmiele

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 09:16 PM

Nice report Daniel! But unless you have a lead on where we can all get one I'm gonna be disappointed. :) Also, are there more pictures available? Joe

#5 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 09:42 PM

Wow Daniel, that sounds like a fun night. :) ! Thanks for the great report, look forewards to your head to head with the TEC.


Thank you Jim, it's a pleasure reading your posts as well.

#6 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 09:48 PM

A measure of contrast should note how clearly a scope will split uneven doubles. I have no doubt the 145mm Cerevalo is a gem of a scope, but will it pick up Enceladus against the disc of Saturn? A 130 Apo can do this.


Hi John,
I agree although I admit that large central obstructions can sometimes help in this department as long as the stars are within the light grasp of the telescope. Being that the Ceravolo is only about 17% it doesn't really exist in this regard, but you also raised a great point regardless. Sometimes all that concentrated light really produces beautiful pinballs at high magnification. Overlaps on doubles are a beautiful sight!

#7 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 09:57 PM

Nice report Daniel! But unless you have a lead on where we can all get one I'm gonna be disappointed. :) Also, are there more pictures available? Joe


I have no idea where to get one :lol: sorry to disappoint ya! My friend had a want buy ad out for several months and he finally got lucky. Last night was the first time I was able to test his Ceravolo. The other one with the flat black finish I've been holding onto for a friend for some years now. I really love the optical design since it seems to excell in every category from flat wide field views all the way up to the central dot, more commonly known as the airy disc seen at high magnifications. Oh yes and more pics on the way.

#8 Alan French

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:31 PM

Almost unobtainium, alas.

Once available new for $1895. The interferometric report in the Ceravolo Optical System brochure showed 0.089 P-V and 0.017 RMS. (The more detailed report with the HD216, available for $4350, says the test wavelength is 633nm.)

Clear skies, Alan

#9 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:43 PM

Nice report Daniel! But unless you have a lead on where we can all get one I'm gonna be disappointed. :) Also, are there more pictures available? Joe


Here's a couple. Notice the tiny obstruction.

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#10 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:44 PM

:lol: I like that one Alan.

#11 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:52 PM

Thi is my friend Joe with the other HD145.

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#12 Tamiji Homma

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:53 PM

Here is one that I took. Well, it isn't close up but you can see it behind Daniel. After looking through HD145 at star party in October 2010, it cost me Intes Micro MN-86.

I remembered that Mark@Teton told me that HD216 got him started in MakNewt route :)

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Full resolution photo

Tammy

#13 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:56 PM

The glossy model

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#14 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:58 PM

without the dew shield

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#15 jrbarnett

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:59 PM

I'd like to know how these stack up to the Intes-Micro MN 66s and 68s.

Regards,

Jim

#16 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 11:00 PM

That was a while back Tammy, I remember that one on the Wagon mount. I needed a shorter tripod.

#17 Jim7728

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 11:15 PM

Here's a couple. Notice the tiny obstruction.



Looks like a refractor objective. :cool:

Great report, Daniel. I've recently become a Mak-newt convert and not surprised what a premium model can do.

#18 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 11:38 PM

Hi Jim,
I have a friend named John Hawk who currently has a 7" Intes but according to him he just couldn't get the thing up an running right optically. He might have something posted online about it and I can put you in touch with him if you ever have any questions. He's a great guy with a ton of experience. The other guy I know who used to have a 6" Intes is Chris Woodell but acording to him, he preferred his FS102. They appear to be built like tanks but I think my friend Steve Keen in Florida has a 7" if I remember correctly and I think he said it was fantastic, so I think it depends. I recall looking through a 7" Intes at RTMC at one time and it looked pretty nice, but honestly I've never seen anything quite like the Ceravolo's. They're very light and they appear to be in a different league and rightly so. Peter Ceravolo was quite obsessive about optics in fact Roland Christen of Astrophysics credits Peter Ceravolo as his mentor on the star test. Both of these Ceravolo's produced star tests that were somewhat difficult to even tell which side was which under steady moments of seeing because the patterns look exactly the same, it's almost bizarre. The stars literally snap right into crisp focus without hesitation. I love when optics are like that. It's a pleasure to look through both these HD145's since they're world class optics no doubt. Many people praise the TEC140 but when you stop to consider that the Ceravolo's are sure to equal and more likely exceed the TEC140 at a fraction of the cost and weight, it's easy to choose IMO. I think the spherical corrector looks to be about 3/8" thick, so it's really not a heavy scope by any means.

I asked Peter why he stopped making them. He gave me two reasons. One is, he said they were a b........ to make. The other thing is that he said he didn't feel like bothering to compete with all these mass imports coming into the US. You see, for me it's easy to choose because no doubt I'll see the different from my observing location no doubt, but for most people who observe under the horrid jet streams and fast dropping climates, it's no wonder Ceravolo can't be bothered and honestly I don't blame him. From a marketing cost standpoint, there are just not enough observers who can appreciate the differences.

#19 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 12:35 AM

Peter Ceravolo was quite obsessive about optics in fact Roland Christen of Astrophysics credits Peter Ceravolo as his mentor on the star test.



I thought that Roland also credited Peter Ceravolo with teaching him the proper use of the interferometer...

Bottom line: Does this mean that one of Peter's Mak Newt's is a better planetary scope than an ST-80? :)

Jon

#20 Eddgie

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 09:43 AM

I had an MN61 (similar to MN66, but the MN66 has a bit more baffling).

The first time I looked through the MN61, it was a revelation. It tought me the value of high quality optics.

I had owned many larger aperture (and smaller aperture) scopes at the time, and on Jupiter, the MN61 simply gave the best view I had ever had.

I was actually looking to buy an MN76 when stumbled on to the deal for my current 6" f/8 Astro Physics.

But had the AP not popped out of the classifieds, I know the scope I would have bought would be the MN76.

Intes Micro makes optics that are so close in quality to the Cerevolo that most people would likely struggle to see the difference at the eyepiece.

Big APO performance for a fraction of the price.

I also had an MN56. Even with it's 26% obstruction, I would bet that it would rival the best 4" APO made at the center of the field. I think I paid $500 and that INCLUDED a Moonlight focuser... In side by side testing with a Televue 101, I felt planetary views were almost identical.

But that has ALWAYS been the tradeoff between refractors and reflectors. More aperture for the money.

When the quality is perfect though, you pay for that too. Superb optical quality it seems always costs more, regardless of the type of scope.

#21 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 09:57 AM

I also had an MN56. Even with it's 26% obstruction, I would bet that it would rival the best 4" APO made at the center of the field. I think I paid $500 and that INCLUDED a Moonlight focuser... In side by side testing with a Televue 101, I felt planetary views were almost identical.



Not so good for bird watching though... and not that 4.5 degree flat field... :)

When one starts comparing other designs to apo's it generally means you are looking at a single aspect of performance. In this thread, planetary. The beauty of the apo is that it does it all about as well as it can be done and does it with a minimum hassle.

Jon

#22 Ziggy943

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:17 AM

I have the highest respect for Peter's telescopes. I have only looked through this one, a 216 owned by a friend. It is some scope. We had three excellent scopes out there that day. Although the 9" Clark was judged best on Saturn, the Ceravolo was an impressive 2nd. It was the smallest of the three scopes.

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#23 jrbarnett

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:34 AM

"Many people praise the TEC140 but when you stop to consider that the Ceravolo's are sure to equal and more likely exceed the TEC140 at a fraction of the cost and weight, it's easy to choose IMO."

A used Ceravolo 145 runs $4000. A used TEC 140 runs $4900. That's a mighty LARGE fraction of the price. :grin: The TEC 140 weighs 19#. The Ceravolo weighs 14#. Again, a fairly large fraction of the weight. Also, the TEC does have a couple of things going for it that the Ceravolo lacks: The TEC is readily available, cools more quickly, and never needs collimation or recoating. These factors coupled with the not dissimilar price and weight, in my view, make the Ceravolo less of an "obvious" choice than you suggest.

I'm looking forward to your shootout between the two. But don't blame me if you're looking to trade the HD-145 afterwards. Blame Yuri and his boys in Colorado. :grin:

On a more serious note, is it true that Mak-Nets have spherical rather than parabolic primaries?

Regards,

Jim

#24 blueman

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 11:22 AM

My poor TEC140 feels very inadequate now. ;^) But, OH WELL, I guess there are always better instruments out there, if you can find them. :^)

I find it hard to compare two scopes that are totally different. You would need to do a lot of tests and viewing to figure out what is "first impression" and what is "total performance".
Blueman

#25 rfic1

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 12:16 PM

I previously owned one of the last made.Purchased in 2002. If I recall correctly speaking with Peter Ceravolo at NEAF, he mentioned the primary was made using low expansion glass. The scope was outstanding and one of the few telescopes I regret selling. At the time I had the Ceravolo HD 145, Tak FC125, AP 130 f/8.35 and a 130mm f/12 Apomax. I kept the Apomax because I felt it was the best double star scope of the bunch. At f/12 vs f/6 with the HD145 I was able to use longer fl eyepieces to achieve the desired magnification. Given a choice now since a more portable telescope is of more value to me. I likely would kept the Ceravolo. By the way. The HD145 was also available in a f/4.5 model.Geared more toward astro-photography


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