30 replies to this topic

[Pharquart]

I love doing informal outreach. I love the "Wow!" factor people express when they see the moon, Saturn, or Jupiter for the first time. I love teaching others. I love the awe that shows up when I start using the green laser (carefully and legally, of course). I love outreach, and happily do it for free.

That said, we have an expensive hobby. Is it considered crass to have a tip jar sitting out?

In a different direction, I'm considering starting a business helping people with their telescopes. I've had several people (random passersby during outreach on the city sidewalk) tell me they bought a telescope but can't figure out how to use it, looking for my help. Is it OK to charge for this service I can offer? Is it crass to have business cards at an outreach session offering to help select and set up a telescope, or train someone to use it?

Outreach is its own reward, and I don't want to spoil the fun of it by making it commercial. However, there's a demand for our knowledge and equipment, and outreach provides excellent access to a willing market.

Am I spoiling the fun?

Brian

[frolinmod]

I don't ask for donations. If anyone should be making donations, it's me. I owe the world. It doesn't owe me.

[GeneT]

we have an expensive hobby. Is it considered crass to have a tip jar sitting out?

I wouldn't do it.

[Scott in NC]

That said, we have an expensive hobby. Is it considered crass to have a tip jar sitting out?

Yes--no question about it.

[Skylook123]

I put in about 200 hours a month at various outreach sites around Tucson during the year, and at least 90 hours with the public during the week of the Grand Canyon Star Party, plus probably 100 hours or more in the planning for GCSP. I do it for the love of it. BUT, I have no problem with someone charging for services that are delivered in a manner commensurate with being reimbursed, however small the amount. I would hope that any small income derived this way gets turned into improving the public outreach, such as the cost of star maps, visual aids, and other tools and props not directly related to the individual's observing needs. In some small way, a donation increases the investment of the visitor in the activity, and might actually foster some benefit in outlook and future attention to supporting scientific activities including light polution reduction sensitivity.

With that said, our club also hires some of us out to resorts and other special events. These professional fees are poured back 100% into our outreach and education functions, one of the cornerstones of our mission statement. We are in the process of building the capability to team with a community college near our dark sky site for educational purposes, including residency capability and extended adult education classes on site. Again, the money is being recycled.

We also support David Levy's Sharing The Sky Foundation annual day and night activities on the University of Arizona Mall, where donations for the Foundation are collected.

I think there is a place for a financial component at times, but this has been a hot button topic for the nearly 20 years I've been in the hobby. Myself, I'd do it 24/7 for the joy of seeing the look on someone's face when they see something special in a scope. But that's just me.

[Jon Isaacs]

Brian:

Your questions are good ones and since we are all in different situations, really only you an make the call. How do you feel about it? Street musicians typically have a bowl out to let folks contribute if they so desire but generally the take is small and one is lucky if it covers gas money. With the attitude that the kitty is there if people want to say thanks with a bit of money, then it could work.

If I were doing it, I would be concerned that the tip jar might discourage people from taking the opportunity to look through a telescope. For me the reward is just sharing the something I enjoy with others.

As far as a business helping folks with their scopes, that's another hard call. For many of them, you time would probably be worth more than the telescope in question...

I think though that one can make a side business of buying good quality used telescopes locally, (Craigslist etc) fixing them up and then offering them with training and support to the local community.

Jon

[Skylook123]

I never thought of that last point, Jon. Good one!

[magic612]

I look at it this way: The sky is free. A (good) education is not. And the problem lies in how most people in this hobby / science think of what they do, and confusing similar events with the same terminology.

Let me explain: Anyone can see the Moon naked-eye. Looking at it through a telescope is merely a bonus. Most anyone can see the naked-eye planets; magnification is a bonus for them. Pointing these objects out is not, in my mind, education. So you have an expensive scope - so what? A cheap scope will show those things quite well too, and someone can buy those on craigslist for $25 or $50.

That said, there is a LOT to learn about astronomy. Do I think it is good for a lot of us to do free, volunteer outreach? Yes, without question. Do I think astronomy education should be free? No.

Why?

Because I think there is a distinction between "outreach" and "education." Outreach is essentially sharing, and therefore should be free (i.e., a telescope pointing at the sky during an outreach event). Education means someone invested time and effort to empower, enlighten and educate others, not just "share" something with them. They have thought ahead about how to help others more fully understand the sky above them. I think there is monetary value in that - my astronomy class in college wasn't free, after all!

Outreach is designed for people to look through a telescope who may or may not have a passing interest; education is for people who have made a conscious decision that they want to learn more, and are willing to invest time and/or money to do so.

High quality education means more than just setting up a scope and pointing it at the sky, pointing at the eyepiece, and saying, "That is M (fill in the number)" or "This is the planet (fill in naked eye planet)," and maybe rattling off some distance / size information. I think if you invest a significant amount of time into setting up a high quality presentation that not just informs people, but empowers and encourages them to take the next steps of doing astronomy on their own or teaching them something they want to learn, that is worth something more than free. Of course, you have to decide what that fair amount is, and someone also has to be willing to pay you for that (capitalism / free market theory). But there is SO much to cover in astronomy - a person could do a two hour presentation educating about the craters of the Moon alone! Whether someone will pay for that is another matter, but I think some would if you put together a high quality presentation.

IMPORTANT: This is not to suggest that there is not value to doing outreach. There is, and setting up a scope and showing people a few night sky highlights is important, and can be done well or poorly. Even when done well, I don't think showing a few showpiece objects requires compensation. But it can be viewed as "advertising" for our hobby, the science of astronomy, or even for the "for pay / education" you wish to provide to others (just don't be crass about it - learn how to market effectively with soft-selling techniques!).

But there is a point at which compensation is merited. And I think when you start educating people beyond simple sharing some of the basics that anyone can find in Wikipedia via 5 seconds of Googling, you are now providing a service that has more significant monetary value, and not just doing outreach (which may have monetary value, but is something I don't think we should charge for). And a good education is something that intelligent people recognize has value, and (usually!) are willing to pay for. You just need to present it to the right institutions for the right price, and do a first-class presentation as well.

To sum up, if you clearly distinguish between outreach and education, I think there is both a need, and opportunity, for both.

Just my $0.02.

[skyward_eyes]

This is a good question as I have dealt with both sides of the coin here.

Personally, anything for education should be free; schools, public events, outreach events, telescope lessons, etc...

But on the other side there is being used as entertainment for parties, resorts and so on. I have several friends who charge for these services as they are being contracted as entertainment from party planners and event coordinators.

There is a very fine line there. But as for leaving a tip jar out, I wouldn't personally.

Just my opinion.

[Jon Isaacs]

High quality education means more than just setting up a scope and pointing it at the sky, pointing at the eyepiece, and saying, "That is M (fill in the number)" or "This is the planet (fill in naked eye planet)," and maybe rattling off some distance / size information.

I believe Brian was thinking of teaching people how to use their telescopes, not teach them astronomy. People pay to learn how to play a musical instrument or to have a personal trainer help with cycling or running. Paying to have someone teach you how to use your telescope certainly could provide a nice shortcut to understanding and using your scope.

I think it's one of those things would be worthwhile but in reality it would be a small market and a tough go.

Jon

[Jon Isaacs]

I never thought of that last point, Jon. Good one!

Jim:

Depending on where you live, I think it's doable. San Diego is about ideal for it, both OPT and Scope City are here so there's a fair number of good quality scopes floating around. The mountains and deserts with clear, dark skies are close by and there are enough people with enough disposable that get the bug to buy a scope, spend real money and then quickly move on.. Lots of scopes are just sitting.

I believe it is my job to liberate these telescopes and find homes for them where they will be appreciated. I am good at liberating telescopes, fixing them up and finding homes for them. The way I do it though it's not a viable business model because the home is often my garage(s) or scope room. And if I do part it I end up giving them away to interested folk who could not otherwise afford a decent scope.

But for someone who did want to make a buck, the opportunity is there.

Jon

[magic612]

I believe Brian was thinking of teaching people how to use their telescopes, not teach them astronomy. People pay to learn how to play a musical instrument or to have a personal trainer help with cycling or running. Paying to have someone teach you how to use your telescope certainly could provide a nice shortcut to understanding and using your scope.

My point about educating others (vs. outreach) would fall under "teaching people how to use their telescope," methinks. My example was just that, an example.

[Pharquart]

Thanks, all, for the great comments and opinions. I think the analogies of the street musician (for outreach) and musical instrument teacher (for education) are good ones that fit quite well.

Well, maybe a street musician isn't quite right. A street musician, juggler, or other busker is usually more obvious in asking for money, either with an instrument case lying in front of them, or by directly asking for money at the end of the act. Their goal is to make money by providing entertainment. My goal is to share the sky for free, but provide a way for people to show appreciation, but only if they so desired. I think the trick in having a tip jar with outreach is to communicate effectively that gratuities are completely optional. I totally agree with Jon that I don't want to discourage anyone from looking through the scope because they think they'll have to (or should) pay something.

In terms of lessons/education, I feel (along with Jon and Magic612) that charging for this has a much stronger moral footing. You can learn an instrument by yourself with some lesson books, and you can read the manual and tons of free online information to learn how to use a telescope. It's just faster (and in my opinion, way more effective) to hire someone to train/teach/coach you. And that's worth some payment.

The good news is that I'm not trying to make a living at this. I have a day job. I walk to my typical sidewalk astronomy site (pulling my red wagon modded to carry all of my gear), so there's not even gas money involved!

So thanks again for the feedback. I appreciate your opinions and insight.

Brian

[Zoomster]

I own Clear Sky Adventures in Tampa and we do all of the things you have mentioned, astronomy programs, solar shows etc, even the telescope consult/repair thing.
We offer educational services to libraries, schools, resorts in fact anyone who might enjoy the service and it is a service so a fee is reasonable.
We have put out a donation hat at free public events and it does not discourage people, honestly we have never had a negative reaction.
We also do many free events for free at hospitals, hospice care and other deserving organizations, it's all about balance.

[Neutrino?]

Minus the holier than thou attitude, regardless of what you do with the money or if you even wanted it, I would want to compensate you for your time Brain.

Knowledge like the night sky is free. People only pay for an "education" because they have been convinced they should. Education is just "sharing" of ideas. Accessibility to info on google in correlation to the worthiness of charging for the sharing of said ideas is irrelevant. All info can be accessed for free; it's only really about whether or not you possess the tools to process the free night sky of knowledge. So you pay to get some tools; the funny thing is that the tools are free too, telescopes are not.

I don't have a telescope to access the sky, you take the time to set it up for me to use...discretionary compensation would be proper. That doesn't seem crass to me. Neither does you other ideas unless you are using the car salesman technique.

[core]

Years ago family was at Yosemite National Park, during the day a chap had setup a Meade 152ED or 178ED looking at climbers on Half-Dome, at night there were some large SCT's (another chap, can't remember the scopes though) - both were in a non-organized setting, and both had donation hats out. I thought it was a little crass for high-end equipment owners, and it discouraged us from even bothering to take a look, less we'd be looked upon as free-loaders (I'll talk-if-you-pay or I've-talked-please-pay). Was happier with the pair of 10x50's we'd brought along. I don't know, but imho if it were in some formally organized event, I might have been okay with the donation hat (offset event/location/etc cost?).

On the other hand, imo the business aspect has potential, and you've already got a couple of good suggestions.

[StarGeazer]

To me a tip jar says "Hey, I took the time to set my scope up and let you look through it, now I expect some gratuity in return".

If monetary "feedback" is expected (and the presence of a tip jar says it is, imho) then is it really outreach???

I don't think any of us invested in our scopes, large small or in between, just to let other people look through them. Outreach to me is sharing what I have discovered and hopefully stirring excitment in others to join in the hobby.

[magic612]

I've been thinking about this for a couple days. I think I am confused by a few things you said.

People only pay for an "education" because they have been convinced they should.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly did not get a college education because I'd been "convinced" I should. I paid for an education because I wanted to learn, I wanted to understand the world around me, I wanted to be encouraged to think, so I could not only provide better for a (future) family, but also understand the world around me and be able to process events and ideas better. And I would submit that many people are more than willing to pay to be taught a good many things because they too, want to learn and think and be challenged - not simply because they've "been convinced they should."

Education is just "sharing" of ideas.

I think most teachers and professors - along with many students - would disagree. I know I disagree. But perhaps I am misunderstanding your point, and I don't wish to ascribe inaccurate conclusions to what you may be suggesting. I would be appreciative if you might clarify what you mean - the rest of your post didn't elucidate these points for me.

[Neutrino?]

You have obviously been convinced that an education had value. Thus you payed for it. The reasons don't really matter.

I was just drawing parallels to why you think an astronomy education is worth compensation while somebody doing outreach is not. You could have learned what you desired, been challenged, understood the world around you.....ect on your own. Knowledge is free and pretty good on its own, just like the night sky; add a professor/telescope and it is merely just a bonus.

To me, this is about somebody giving me their time or doing something for me no matter how insignificant it might seem. Regardless of what I would expect for payment, which we have many opinions about already, I would want to do something in return. "Paying it forward" would be nice, but in reality a simple 50cents from a few gracious people would get the buddy a sandwich at the end of the night. Fair compensation, I believe. Hence, I don't think it would be crass to set out a tip jar.

As for the black and white statement of education being the of sharing ideas... I simply meant that if somebody gave you a presentation, then they would be sharing ideas with you. The after effects, what one would do with those ideas later, is up to the individual and cannot be taught in my opinion.

[Jim Rosenstock]

That said, we have an expensive hobby. Is it considered crass to have a tip jar sitting out?

I enjoy outreach, too. I would never put out a tip jar, not because I consider it illegal, immoral, or fattening, but because it would fundamentally change my relationship to this hobby!

I just know that I wouldn't be comfortable taking money, much less asking for it. And, I suspect that you're not entirely comfortable with the concept either, or you wouldn't have asked.

Don't get me wrong--I'm glad that there are people in the astronomy biz.

I just couldn't hang a tip jar on my telescope. It might change me.

On such matters, we must each look into our own hearts.

Cheers,

Jim

[mausf]

John Dobson:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

[Jim Rosenstock]

John Dobson:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Yes indeed. And also:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=PXWZkOLCGdM

[amicus sidera]

John Dobson's biography on the Sidewalk Astronomer's website, http://www.sidewalka...rs.us/id32.html
states:

"With no "profession" and an overwhelming desire to show the night sky, John decided to dedicate the rest of his life to public service astronomy and hitchhiked to San Francisco. Then as now, John had many friends, and they helped to keep him fed, clothed, and sheltered."

So, John Dobson was apparently not averse to receiving material support for his efforts. He received said support from his friends, but I see little difference between Mr. Dobson and any other amateur astronomer receiving reimbursement for his or her efforts, whether from friends or complete strangers.

"...for the labourer is worthy of his hire." Luke 7:10

I have never received a red cent for the many hours I've spent on public outreach, but I certainly wouldn't look down upon anyone who did.

[Lynnblac]

Outreach is public service, pay for view is a business.
Outreach business is an oxymoron. Do not flatter yourself.

[amicus sidera]

Outreach is public service, pay for view is a business.

Outreach business is an oxymoron. Do not flatter yourself.

While I agree that pay-to-view is an obvious business model, I am not convinced that "outreach business" is a contradiction in terms, insofar as charitable donations are concerned. The number of charitable and religious organizations operating as an "outreach" organization or ministry are legion, yet the organizations themselves are run in a very business-like manner, and in the case of non-profits operating under this moniker, meet all the definitions of a business, save the profit factor.

Since these "outreach" organizations do not operate solely on hope and good wishes, and require injections of funds for continued existence, are we to say then that they are not performing a public service? That, in most instances, they do not receive their funding from those they serve is immaterial here, as those served in such a capacity usually have no ability to reimburse the organization for services rendered, whereas in most instances those who avail themselves of views through a telescope set up in public have a certain amount of disposable income available for a voluntary monetary donation after the fact.

It is all very altruistic and noble to promote astronomy with no thought of financial renumeration for one's services, but it is hardly incumbent upon any individual amateur to follow such a dictum.

Outreach costs the provider something - it might be fuel to reach the point of outreach, wear and tear on a vehicle or telescope and accessories, etc. While the provider may enjoy performing said outreach, he or she will nonetheless incur expenses. Whether he or she wishes to be reimbursed for those expenses is a matter solely between themselves and those served.