22 replies to this topic

[S.Boerner]

Our club does weekly public outreach from an orange sky county park. We are fortunate because the park has nine pads with 20 amp service, facilities for the club's scopes, and county park security 24-7. The club has a C14 & 16" and plans are underway to move a 32" to the park. Club members also bring their personal telescopes to the events. On a nice night in the summer all the pads are full and we'll have over 100 visitors. I'd guess that some of our events have over 100 inches of mirrors.

All that said, I sometimes wonder if BIG scopes at public outreach events are in some way a disservice to the public that attends our events. The public will view through what ever equipment we provice. Will the BIG scopes make the interested beginner think that it takes a BIG scope and a fortune to get into the hobby? They don't necessarily understand that it took us year$ to get to where we are now. I wonder how many people walk away from the hobby before they get started. Would it better serve the public to make sure we include a box of binoculars and smaller dobs (6-8") or refractors (80-90mm) at our events to make sure the beginner gets an idea of how to start down our trail?

Your comments are most welcome.

[Jon Isaacs]

Would it better serve the public to make sure we include a box of binoculars and smaller dobs (6-8") or refractors (80-90mm) at our events to make sure the beginner gets an idea of how to start down our trail?

I think a variety of scopes is important. In general big scopes are impressive to look at but at a star party for people who are not experienced, I suspect a well prepared scope that is easier to look through is more valuable.

I use my 25 inch to see the things I can't see in a smaller, more manageable scope. At a star party of first timers and such, there is plenty to see in a smaller scope...

Jon

[GeneT]

I agree that a variety of telescopes is the way to go. Scopes 20 inches and larger will pose some challenges to younger and older people getting up and down ladders. A good 10-12 inch Dob, 3-4 inch refractor, or 6-8 inch SCT will show the planets and moon nicely, plus a lot of other stuff. I believe that small to mid range size telescopes are the way to go for outreach.

[StarStuff1]

Our club has been doing regular outreach for over 25 years. We have several scopes stored in two observatories. Our biggest scope is a 17.5-in Coulter dob that we rebuilt as a trusser to make it more user friendly. Next down is a 12-in Cass on a go-to mount. Then a 10-in dob, 8-in f/12 apo plus whatever else other members show up with. People tend to line up more behind the bigger scopes. If the Pleiades are visible I will often take along a little 4-in f/4 refractor (homemade from a binocular lens) on a simple alt-az mount and shorter than average tripod. I set it up for the kids to look through. Usually they will go grab the adult who brought them to see what is essentially an 18x wide angle binocular like view.

This being said a 32-incher might be overkill for outreach. I'm sure a ladder must be climbed.

[tedbnh]

I coordinate the monthly sidewalk astronomy event for our club. We usually get 5-6 members bringing scopes in the 4-6" range for refractors, or up to 10-12" for dobsonian reflectors.

From the comments of the public, it's clear that even the smallest of these scopes appears huge to most people, once it is mounted on a sturdy tripod and a GEM mount with all kinds of strange bars and weights sticking out at odd angles.

So I try to always have an Orion XT6 set up and being manned by one of our members. The views of planets and the first quarter moon are spectacular in this scope, and we urge people to operate it themselves. All it has is a Telrad. They like hearing the price too. And if a kid is hanging around for more than 5 minutes, I try to put them in charge of running that scope for the public for a while -they love being the "astronomer." We want people to feel that they don't have to spend $5K to get into this hobby and get good results.

Another curious thing - we accept donations for the club at these events in a little plastic telescope that sits off to the side. I have found an inverse correlation between the size of the largest real scope on hand and the amount we collect over the course of the evening. When a member brought his 18" Obsession donations almost dried up completely. Maybe seeing such equipment people think we must be millionaires, in which case why donate. :-)

[hm insulators]

I was recently at a public star party that had the two extremes: One person had a 20" Dob, the other had a simple pair of binoculars mounted on a tripod and was pointing out that good astronomy can be done with just a pair of binoculars.

[frolinmod]

When I bring a large scope to an outreach event the most commonly asked question is not astronomy related, but how much I paid for the equipment.

[Skylook123]

On any particular night at the Grand Canyon Star Party we will have as many as 65 instruments set up, of which four or five will be binoculars in a variety of mounts including one or two couch potato setups, and the rest will be telescopes: newtonians from Celestron FirstScopes up to 28", SCTs from baby Maks up to the occasional Celestron 14" (one year I recall a Meade 16" monster), and refractors from 60mm up to 155mm. Ten percent of the newtonians will be astronomer built of one form or another. We often have three in the 16"-18" built from old paint buckets.

In my case I set up an 18" Teeter Telescopes truss dob for myself, and my wife uses a 10" Meade SCT on an Atlas GEM (although last year our two granddaughters used the scopes while we just hung out). The most common comments we get are, for the 18", "Did you build that yourself? (No, but I made the $$ to purchase it)" and for the SCT "How much does that whole setup weigh? (tripod 15 lbs., mount head 35 lbs., OTA 40 lbs., balance weights 27 lbs.)". And, always, how much did they cost. I don't think most of the visitors are pricing them for future purchase as much as curiosity regarding scale. Along with the comments on the sizes, we almost always hear, at the larger instruments, amazement and gratitude that we voluntarily set these up for visitors. In my case, with either scope, I am quick to point out the trade of good views for convenience. Face it, a BIG scope HAS to attract an Oh Wow kind of question about cost - it is a striking visual experience just to see one up close, and it's human nature to be curious about such an unusual sight. I understand where the question is coming from, and I try to treat it with respect, and balance the answer by pointing to near by 8" - 10" tube dobs and relative cost and ease and frequency of use.

Where does the crowd hang out? It seems evenly distributed at GCSP among all of the instruments, if we are wise in making good foot traffic access lanes. I've noticed on the visitor count sheets that all astronomers report within 10 percent of the same number of visitors at each scope, no matter what the aperture. For the 10" or smaller apertures, right along with cost is the question "Where does one get one of these?" Now THAT'S the great question.

[cheapersleeper]

I have been asked the money question a few times. It was awesome on the night that I took my son's homebrew dob. They would ask and I would say "well, I think we have about a hundred dollars in it." When I have my bigger scope I usually don't answer the question but rather explain that you can start and have a load of fun for a relatively small price and then spend as much or as little as you want. It helps that I have mostly ATM scopes and can get them thinking about that part of it.

[amicus sidera]

No need for monster telescopes at an outreach event... keeping it small and personable (not to mention affordable) will go far towards planting a seed in the public's mind of "Hey, I could do this!"...

[Tim Gilliland]

I put on a monthly outreach event quite often by myself. It is in severe light pollution in town. My primary scope is a 17.5 split tube Discovery. When I have help it is more often than not Okiestarman with his 12" Dob. I always am asked about price. Once I answer most are surprised that it doesn't cost much more for scopes of this size and I point out that dark sky's are more important than big scopes. And even in the severe LP I am always able to get some good deep sky targets. Occasionally I have also set up my 88mm RA Binos to let the public get a feel for what can be done with less aperture. I think a large part of this is education and discussion about the capabilities of modern amatures. Which helps stir even more interest.
I also always display my images and explain some are taken with a 80mm scope. I don't fell this misleads them as long as I explain it takes different tools to accomplish different tasks.

[jrbarnett]

I actually think it's good to have a monster scope at an outreach event. Folks can compare the views in it and in smaller, more practical, more affordable scopes, and quickly conclude that the images are only a little bit brighter and more detailed compared to smaller scopes, but the negatives of living with a monster are ginormous compared to life with a smaller scope.

Regards,

Jim

[Sean Cunneen]

I bring my 6" f15 refractor for outreach. I admit, I am a bit of an attention hog(only child) and I love the long lines and endless conversation. I try to make the point that as big as it is, there are much smaller, cheaper scopes that give better views of dim objects. I bring a step stool for kids and I know that at the end of the night, I am going to be a little horse in the throat.

For a good event, there needs to be balance. Too many 8" dobs pointed at the moon gets folks bored quick.

[Skylook123]

I average about 50 public outreaches a year, generally at schools or the occasional library with a few exceptions. Four or five might involve solar, so that size instrument is fixed by my 60mm Lunt THa. Otherwise, the 10" SCT on a GEM is the workhorse. For me, it's set and forget. For the visitors, I can set the height so that, along with the rotating diagonal and a small step up, all sizes of visitors are accommodated.

However, there are four occasions that find the 18" f/5 in use. For two of the events, the annual eight night Grand Canyon Star Party, and three times a year for one night at Catalina State Park Star Nights, we need as many telescopes as we can round up so both the 10" and 18" are in play. Then there are the quarterly Pima County Natural Resources public event, and the support we provide periodically to the Univ. of Arizona astronomy student nights. These last two are primarily adult events, so the 18" becomes the tool.

Then there was last night. Our club shares an observing site near town with the Tucson International Modelplex Association - radio controlled aircraft, a runway, rocket launching facilities, plus our multiple pads and a 14" Meade LX-200 on a pier inside a roll back "Dr. Who" telephone booth sized "observatory." Last night was our annual Messier Marathon at that location (we also concurrently held one at our deep sky site near the Chiricahua Mountains, too far for me to care to drive). Interestingly, there was a gathering of the Southern Arizona Rocketry Association for a day-night festival of rocket launches. What an interesting combination of events! So, we were forewarned that with the shared use, we might have visitors.

I had the 18" last night, as I usually do on personal nights out. Bottom line, I had nearly 150 people drop by between sunset and 10PM. And the occasional rocket drifting in the wind over our heads. The last two nights out, this one plus one last month at Catalina State Park, the crowd definitely gravitated to the 18". It is a real crowd magnet. For these two adventures, I heard for the first time "Wow, things look so much better in this scope." My targets were Jupiter for a while until the twilight dissipated, The Orion Nebula for most of the time, then over to some galaxies. Yikes, did the aperture prove its worth. The Sombrero at 115X and 254X was crisp and clear, Bode's Nebula (M82) was stunning at 254X, with mottling, dust, star forming, the whole show going on; and, the show stopper, the Whirlpool at 254X was flat out awesome. When I had finished collimation I did a star check at around 300X and it was as good as I have ever gotten, so it showed on the galaxy quest. Oh,and Markarian's chain was well place for some fun. I let visitors move the scope from The Eyes through M84/M86 and along the Chain in azimuth by hand. Seeing all those island universes flow through the 155X/0.6 degree FOV resulted in some real big-eyed expressions as each visitor left. M51 at high elevation, though, brought so much detail that it was a big topic of discussion for the next half hour or so.

What did I learn? People are grateful for the service we bring, no matter what the instrument. But there are times when a big instrument can take the visitor to places in their thoughts that certainly have value as well. Plus, at f/5, that long truss makes astronomy an aerobic event with the two step climbs.

[stevew]

Are BIG scopes useful at public star parties??
Yes they are!
The big scopes on the field keep the line up at my humble C11 small.

[Skylook123]

Glad to be of service.

When I set up my 18" at the Grand Canyon Star Party near the permanent setup end, it's the SMALL scope, and the same thing happens some nights; a half dozen people at mine, dozens at the five or six 20"-24" truss dobs. Now those are BIG attractors. Picture below. My granddaughter Karina with the 18" she ran all week, behind her is a 16" newt/GEM, everything else including four off to the right of the picture is 20"-24".

OK, a comment a little displaced from the intent of the thread, but part of the discussion. Out of the many large truss dobs set up near me over the last 10 years, that I paid attention to out of curiosity, 25 percent were poorly collimated. Several times I've watched users go through the setup of their scope, and not even try to collimate. In my case, at f/5, it's a bit more forgiving than the faster instruments but it still needs attention on setup every single time. But even when some of the users would try, with every tool known to the hobby, they missed the concept. And I've also run into some users who teach me something every time I'm around them. Most truss dob users do an acceptable to excellent execution on their collimation, so it surprises me when I notice the minority that invest lots of resources in their instrument, then don't let it shine. I had a pair of guys with a 22" hear visitors ask me "why does this look so much better in your scope than in theirs?" and say quite huffily, "because you trained yourselves on this view, now you see better." I asked if I could look through their scope, and I defocused a star and showed them how far out it was. Their comment? "Collimation is over-rated." Sigh.

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[desertstars]

"Collimation is over-rated." Sigh.

[Jon Isaacs]

Their comment? "Collimation is over-rated." Sigh.

Thermal equilibrium is also over-rated...

But for the general public, for many of them if not most of them, it probably doesn't matter so much because they don't have the skills to precisely focus the image and to see what is there to be seen.

Obviously some do but many are just going to see the most obvious details, not the ones you and I look for... not the festoons on the cloud bands of Jupiter, not the shadow transits, just the cloud bands and moons themselves. They are not splitting sub arcsecond doubles, just Castor and Albireo...

Obviously it depends on the sophistication of the attendees and I am not supporting poor collimation or not paying attention to thermal equilibrium. Rather, just sharing a small revelation. I was at a small get together and hadn't brought a scope. There might have been 10-15 scopes there. As I looked through the various scopes, they were not performing the way I knew they could.

But people were still ooh'ing and aah'ing and it was all fine and dandy. I said to myself, I can tell things are not right but can anyone else? I decided probably not too many.

Jon

[bassplayer142]

I find it absurd that anyone would call collimation or thermal equalibrium over-rated. Especially someone with a large scope. I don't want to insult anyon or make assumptions, but it sounds like some people have the money to blow thousands of dollars on something they don't truly understand. There shouldn't be a minimum time spend before buying expensive equipment. But there should be a minimum knowledge before you go off the deep end.

Back on topic, I plan to bring my 16" to a local star party soon. I'm not a member or anything but I love teaching and showing off something I know. One of my favorite experiences with astronomy so far has been teaching the line of people who come to check out my setup.

[Jon Isaacs]

I find it absurd that anyone would call collimation or thermal equalibrium over-rated.

I think we all find it odd. But given the context, it seems it was probably uttered in a moment of desperation rather than a moment of enlightenment. The enlightenment will probably come later.

Jon

[David Pavlich]

The more diverstity, the better! When I was bringing my Megrez 110 on an LXD75 mount, I would set up next to one of our club members that has a 16" Nightsky dob. Gives great perspective. As far as the money question, I get it whether it's the 110mm refractor or a 12" Meade on a CGE. It's curiosity, that's all.

David

[amicus sidera]

I find it absurd that anyone would call collimation or thermal equalibrium over-rated.

I think we all find it odd. But given the context, it seems it was probably uttered in a moment of desperation rather than a moment of enlightenment. The enlightenment will probably come later.

Jon

A wise observation, and undoubtedly correct.

I would think it likely that before those two fellows with the 22-incher set up in public again, they will have learned how to properly collimate that beast... the ego can perform amazing feats when threatened.

As far as the original post is concerned, I must say that the many persuasive arguments for large instruments at outreach events has swayed my opinion, and I now agree that they have their place at such gatherings... if it generates public interest in astronomy, and people don't find them off-putting, who can complain?

[woodworkt]

Having a variety of scopes at a big astronomy event, including the huge dobs, serves a lot of functions. For one, it highlights the benefits of participating with a local astronomy club... you can join with modest equipment (or none at all), get help observing with what you have, and have opportunities to compare your observations with views through something bigger.

Plus, remember not all outreach events (especially the big, long-planned ones with many huge scopes) fall during great weather. Sometimes modest seeing is kind of interesting, too, for the public to be able to see how the small to mid-sized refractors sometimes shine, even in comparison to the big guns.

And finally, it's an encouragement for fellow club members to come and share views... there's always something to look forward to for them as well, driving up participation.

Everyone cross your fingers for clear skies on Astronomy day this month!
--Ken T.