69 replies to this topic

[Memo]

Thanks a lot for the list Amalia. I really apreciate your effort creating the list.

[Amalia]

Version 13 is out now... :o ...

I made a huge mistake by calculating the
months of culmination :o - so this is the final proof I am no
expert... :o

This is corrected now.

I am so sorry if you had inconveniences...

Amalia


Thank you, Darren, NGC 2438 is included now!

[Olivier Biot]

Do we want to add how easy an object is accessed by e.g. star hopping? For instance, M33 is not as simple to get to as M13 or M31. For M3, a beginner also needs to know how to star hop to get there. Maybe we could define some basic "properties" like star hopping ease, contrast, ... and rate them from easy over moderate to challenging? Do we also want to collect observing reports for these objects? This may be interesting

BTW Uranus and Neptune are easy starhop targets nowadays Just saw them for the very first time yesterday night (technically it already was today, as it was at about 02h30AM). They show a disk when you magnify say 300x (I love my SuperMonos!)


Cheers!

Olivier

[BillFerris]

Do we want to add how easy an object is accessed by e.g. star hopping? For instance, M33 is not as simple to get to as M13 or M31. [snip]

M33's field is hardly a difficult starhop. The galaxy is a naked eye object from a dark site, which goes a long way toward making the starhop a piece of cake. Even if the galaxy isn't visible naked eye, the field is an easy slew of 4-degrees going west from Alpha Triangulum.

Two factors that have a big impact on how difficult a starhop will be, are sky quality and observer experience. Under heavy light-pollution, there aren't as many reference stars for starhopping. And inexperience can make even the most routine starhop an adventure. Given that the difficulty of a starhop is largly influenced by factors other than the location of the object, it's going to be nearly impossible to apply a starhopping "degree of difficulty" scale in a way that's broadly applicable.

For example, a lot of folks have trouble finding M3 until they learn that it's located about halfway along a line between Arcturus and Cor Caroli. Similarly, M81 & M82 can be a challenging hop until one figures out that following a path from Phad through Dubhe and continuing a distance equal to the spread between those stars puts you right on that galaxy pairing. And there isn't a patch of sky that anybody with a couple of years experience starhopping can't find. Of course, finding the right area of sky and seeing the object that's there--or supposed to be there--are two different things.

One way a novice observer can overcome his lack of experience--both with the sky and a telescope--is to invest in observing guides that maximize his knowledge or, at least, available information. Just to offer one example, Pennington's "The Year-Round Messier Marathon Field Guide" is a great resource for the novice starhopper. As the title suggests, it can be used year-round as an aid in finding the Messier objects.

So, my recommendation to the novice is to take advantage of the experience and knowledge available in the best published guides, observe, and use forums like CN to share your notes and ask questions.

Regards,

Bill in Flagstaff

[Amalia]

@ Nemo: Welcome back, Nemo!

@ Olivier: I read your post in a pause while writing my other thread.
I hope I can answer to some of these questions by this other thread.
I think the only way to show this in a simple way to beginners would be
to draw - or to use software star charts.

Still, I can tell you, drawing *some* charts is fun - drawing hundred is
heavy work. If some of us would like to share the work - I could contribute
with some dozens, too.

@ Bill: Thank you for your very clear post, Bill! I think we should not forget
with how many problems newbies have to fight - not knowing how a
certain celestial object will look like etc. I remember too well how difficult
the finding was to me with my former SCT and its "mechanic" - the
Dobson makes everything way easier now.

And thank you - I never thought about the line Phad - Dubhe!

Hmm, this shows (without wanting it) that sharing this kind of information
would have its place, all the same. I will think about it.

I agree totally with you about getting books (beside, of course, CN).

Last winter I had observations when I read (standing in the snow) as long
time as I observed.
And these were very peaceful, rich observations. I feel books as helpful,
good friends.


Have a nice day!

Amalia

[Olivier Biot]

Do we want to add how easy an object is accessed by e.g. star hopping? For instance, M33 is not as simple to get to as M13 or M31. [snip]

M33's field is hardly a difficult starhop. The galaxy is a naked eye object from a dark site, which goes a long way toward making the starhop a piece of cake. Even if the galaxy isn't visible naked eye, the field is an easy slew of 4-degrees going west from Alpha Triangulum.

Two factors that have a big impact on how difficult a starhop will be, are sky quality and observer experience. Under heavy light-pollution, there aren't as many reference stars for starhopping. And inexperience can make even the most routine starhop an adventure. Given that the difficulty of a starhop is largly influenced by factors other than the location of the object, it's going to be nearly impossible to apply a starhopping "degree of difficulty" scale in a way that's broadly applicable

Hi Bill,

Thanks a lot for your reaction! This leads to another point we need to draw attention to: the skies where you observe. Here I'd propose we briefly explain several types of observing sites, like: severely light-polluted (LP'd) skies (e.g., city, airport), moderately LP'd skies (e.g., many suburbs), average rural skies (Milky Way often visible around zenit, but sky not yet pitch black), and very dark skies. If we are able to add a minimum "sky darkness" requirement for an object, then I think we've helped many an observer

Let me explain my situation: I started observing again when I purchased a scope some months ago. Other observing dates back from about 5-15 years ago. I do live in a country where a dark sky is only available during a major power outage and a major strike or disaster in the harbor of Antwerp (not kidding here: the industrial processing torches and the ubiquitous streetlights give the sky a yellowish-orange glow). My observing sessions relate to backyard astronomy in a moderately light-polluted suburb, with contributions from filterable (street lights) and unfilterable (e.g., torches of a oil refinery) light pollution. As a result, the Milky Way is only rarely visible, and even then it still bathes in skyglow. NGC7000 is an invisible object when I observe at home.

This brings us to the source of light pollution. Maybe this gets too technical for a newcomer, but it is an important factor anyhow. Some LP types can be reduced (not eliminated), but other types can't.

As you also stated, in a light-polluted area, objects are not always easily found, and you often need to limit star hopping to the brightest stars, or running back and forth between your astronomical charting software and your scope. That's the way I do this today, BTW For instance, M33 is an object I never saw with the unaided eye in Belgium. Fortunately, M31 and M13 are very bright and can often be spotted with the naked eye (one in every 5 nights).

I know I should taste real dark skies, which I didn't do with a telescope yet. I do often take binoculars with me when I travel (and virtually everywhere I go the skies are darker), and they get use both in the daytime and overnight

For example, a lot of folks have trouble finding M3 until they learn that it's located about halfway along a line between Arcturus and Cor Caroli. Similarly, M81 & M82 can be a challenging hop until one figures out that following a path from Phad through Dubhe and continuing a distance equal to the spread between those stars puts you right on that galaxy pairing. And there isn't a patch of sky that anybody with a couple of years experience starhopping can't find. Of course, finding the right area of sky and seeing the object that's there--or supposed to be there--are two different things.

You're absolutely correct regarding these aids! However it's easier to follow a trail of stars than aiming in the total voidness for a novice... Learning to use a finder is also part of the learning curve. And it's really fun

I use a Red Dot Finder (RDF) for a rough direction (unless the object is really close to a visible star), then I starhop through the field of my finder, finally I do the same with my longest focal length eyepiece (the one that yields me the largest true field) when the object is really challenging.

One way a novice observer can overcome his lack of experience--both with the sky and a telescope--is to invest in observing guides that maximize his knowledge or, at least, available information. Just to offer one example, Pennington's "The Year-Round Messier Marathon Field Guide" is a great resource for the novice starhopper. As the title suggests, it can be used year-round as an aid in finding the Messier objects.

So, my recommendation to the novice is to take advantage of the experience and knowledge available in the best published guides, observe, and use forums like CN to share your notes and ask questions.

Regards,

Bill in Flagstaff

Here again, I totally agree!

Many thanks for your comments!

Cheers,

Olivier

[Olivier Biot]

Hi Amalia,

If you want some help regarding star hopping tracks, maybe I can start writing mine down, so they can serve for others?

For me part of the fun is finding a trail without reading one beforehand (so: charting software and sky maps only)... I agree that it takes time, but you don't know the pleasure you get when you find a target you never saw earlier (like Uranus and Neptune yester night)


I will keep an observing log starting from my next observing night (hopefully somewhere next week - now the skies are really baaaaaad, got my 6 hours of observing so I'm set )

Cheers!

Olivier

[Amalia]

Version 14 now!


Re-checked all double stars, inserted more informations here and there...

I think this could be the last version - but if you find an error, please let me know!

I attach version 14 here (I can't edit my first post anymore).

Finito!


Amalia

Attached Files

•  559413-Amalia's 200 v14.xls   36.5KB   194 downloads

[Kenny]

Amalia,

that is a very impressive list! Thank-you for creating it.

So . . . will you be releasing "Amalia's 1000 for the Southern Hemisphere" on Tuesday or Wednesday?

Running for my life,

Ken.

[Pat42]

Amalia,

Thanks for all your hard work in creating this list and updating it :flower:. Now I have another reason to stay out all night (too bad Spencer(my 6mo son) bed time is a little too early for him to stay out with me).

Now I just have to finish off your 36 list

Humm Amalia's 1000

Patrick Wilson

[Amalia]

@ Ken: You are welcome! Mmh, I guess there will be no "Amalia's 1000"
I think I would get lost in 1000. I hope the 200 will be useful and exact enough.

I don't feel enough qualified to write for the southern hemisphere, sorry!


@ Patrick: Maybe you can make an exception and allow your little sun
(this was a typo, but a good one, isn't it?)
to watch with you?

Please remember, the 36 - list is more kind of a favorite-list.

I sorted the 200 list right now in an other way, so it gives another
possibility for a beginner. Have a look at the attachment of this post!


After having tried "Amalia's 200" - there are so many existing lists.

This is a list of lists:

http://www.seds.org/...ar/similar.html

Out of this list:

110 Deep Sky Highlights
http://www.seds.org/...lar/cozens.html

RASC's Finest NGC Objects List
http://www.seds.org/...r/rasc-ngc.html

The Caldwell Catalog
http://www.seds.org/...r/caldwell.html

The AAAA Urban Astronomy Club List of Objects
http://www.seds.org/...ilar/urban.html

Astronomical League's selection of 400
http://www.seds.org/...rschel/h400.txt


Etcetera etcetera...

Here a link about Astronomical League's catalog of 100 double stars:
http://www.astroleag...r/dblstar2.html


And not to be forgotten: The monthly lists in CN's Deep Sky Forum
and the list in CN's Double Star Forum.



Personally I prefer to have some good books as guides!

And please, don't feel obliged to "make" my list, to finish it.
Take out what you like! Enjoy!

There is no Amalia-Diploma! ...


Amalia

Attached Files

•  560508-Amalia's 200 v14 vis sorted.xls   36.5KB   341 downloads

[Pat42]

No Diploma Then again you would have your hands full checking everyone's scores .
That's a great typo he might not light up the skies but he lights up my life.
Well maybe I could make an exception while it's still warm at night here.

Patrick Wilson

[Amalia]

Patrick: He will never forget if you show him the sky!


In my former post I forgot to mention Tom Trusock's
"Small Wonders" and Steve Coe's "What's up"
for many constellations - both still adding and adding!
To be found in CN's "Article Discussions Forum".


Amalia

[HubbleO]

For those using Skytools I've created an observing list of Amelia's 200.

This is my first attempt at exporting an observing list so please let me know if it works.

P.S. And this is my first attempt at attaching a file here on CN. It seems CN doesn't like the stx file extension so I've changed it to txt. Of course you will have to change it back to stx before you import it into Skytools.

Attached Files

•  564291-Amelia's 200.txt   27.89KB   189 downloads

[Amalia]

And here is the version 15 with several small adjustments.

Have fun!


Amalia

Attached Files

•  610113-Amalia's 200 v15.xls   37KB   1529 downloads

[Averted]

Wow, that's a great list. And debugged to boot.
Thanks!

[Pat42]

version 15 where do you find the time you must have direct line to Red Bull and Power Aid to be able to stay awake and do these spread sheets for us Amalia.

Thanks :flower:

Patrick Wilson

[lakedawgs]

Wow, I have been casually following this thread for a while, but just printed the list.
I have been using internet forums for many years but I must say this one is unique. The amount of help and resources people provide to others here is overwhelming. Not only are the majority of my questions addressed by others quickly and efficiantly, but then stuff like this pops up to help us beginers for no other reason than Amalia just thought it would help.
A big thanks to Amalia!!!!
Lakedawgs

[Amalia]

Dave, Patrick and lakedawgs

You are very welcome! Thank you for the flowers!

I compiled this list to help amateur astronomers to make their first
steps.

I tried to insert all kinds of objects - so now I am also using it,
as I had never observed dark nebulae before.

Have fun!

Amalia

[marsbert]

I have to say there's a STRONG correlation between astronomy and helpfulness. I've never seen people as helpful as astronomers. I guess it's no mere coincidence...

Thanx to Amalia and other posters.

CArlos