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17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD2

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#476 Live_Steam_Mad

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 07:54 PM

Hi, I fancy getting this 40 GBP smaller version camera shortly.

There was mention of the camera defaulting to black and white ? If I set Sens up to OFF and the AGC to OFF and Lens to electric between x32 and x1024, does the camera stay in color all the time? Do I have manual control over the white balance whilst it does this?

I would like to know please what is the source of the noise that the pix have, even when switching the camera on and using it straight away from ambient temp? Is it the on chip amp? The readout amp? Another amp. chip after that? The 1/3" chip itself?

Any news on those 1/2" cameras with the new Super HAD CCD 2 and Ex View HAD 2 yet?

Regards,

Alistair G.

#477 ccs_hello

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:11 AM

Alistair,

For detailed discussion on image sensor noise analysis including noise sources, please read Prof. Craig Stark's article series "Fishing for Photons" shown in Cloudy Night's home page:
http://www.cloudynights.com/index.php

Videocams, just like any other types of imaging devices, are depend on image sensors thus are subject to the same evaluation criteria and constraints.

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello

#478 barbarosa

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:35 PM

There was mention of the camera defaulting to black and white ? If I set Sens up to OFF and the AGC to OFF and Lens to electric between x32 and x1024, does the camera stay in color all the time?


Yes

Do I have manual control over the white balance whilst it does this?


Yes

#479 Live_Steam_Mad

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 06:33 PM

I've been playing for the past couple of weeks with both the small and the large versions of the LNTECH cameras.

- in manual frame integration mode (sense-up off, lens manual, x2 to x1024 ) , the 3D noise reduction set to ON does a frame stacking or several frames interpolation of sorts . It stacks several consecutive long integration frames .
This brings the benefits of stacking such as better signal to noise but one big problem. Because the stacking is blind, without a frame alignment algorithm , the mount must track well for a much longer period of time . Instead of good tracking for the up to 17sec (x1024) , now it is several times the 17seconds. That means a good or at least decent polar mount .


Can I use the X2 to X1024 with 3D-DNR=OFF on these 2 cameras? And have NO frame stacking, just a complete refresh for every new frame?

Regards,

Alistair G.

#480 Live_Steam_Mad

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 07:46 PM

Well, someone PM'ed me (not sure if I am allowed to say who, but many Thanks to the person who messaged me, I appreciare it) anyway here is the info ;-

"the answer to your question (if you can use 3D-DNR off and set sens-up off, shutter manual x2 to x1024) is yes, you can use it like that." [Oh good, no more blurring due to non-aligned stacking of frames that the camera does with 3D-DNR activated]

"There is a catch, if you use it like that and AGC is not set to OFF, the camera will quickly lose color and the image will become B&W, even if you set it to color in the Day/night submenu." [Oh dear, OK then we will use AGC=OFF then, and the camera automatically will use a fixed small-ish 6dB gain (even though we just set AGC=OFF, this behaviour has been noted previously in these 2 small and large cameras).

"The only way the camera output remains color is if AGC is also OFF , which unfortunately makes the camera about 100 times less sensitive than AGC =HIGH and 3D-DNR =ON." [I assume this is because AGC=OFF applies a small 6dB fixed gain whereas AGC=HIGH applies a lot of gain]

"A 20sec (x1024) integration with AGC off generates the same image as a 0.2 sec with AGC on and 3D-DNR set to 5."

...so basically this is more sensitive than both the Samnsung SDC435 and SCB 2000, and a lot cheaper, but the gain has to be kept low on the unmodded camera (unless your tracking is very good indeed), which either lengthens integration times greatly, or you have to add more "gain" in Photoshop (which I would do by dragging the gamma curve upwards in the usual way) or in your video processing / capture software / hardware if you want live video.

What would be the best method to do this "gain" on the live image in software, for broadcasting on NSN, or can't that be done yet? I need the equivalent of about 30dB or so of software "gain" on the live video signal, I imagine, for use on DSO's?

Best Regards,

Alistair G.

#481 mattflastro

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 11:34 AM

The problem is that you can't stretch 30dB , which is 5 bits, out of an 8 bit Directshow video histogram. It can be done with CCD imagers because they sample at 12 to 16 bits which become 7 to 11 after the 30dB digital gain. Doing the same to video would leave 3 bits!

#482 ccs_hello

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 04:09 PM

Alistar,

As you might have noticed, many standard, out of the box cameras, such as this thread has been referring to, most likely have limitations. These are hard coded by the camera factories. In the most general statement, factory manufacturers worried about image quality. When it degrades the image quality too much, the factory setting simply won't allow to push it further.

View that bar as the "minimum S/N" allowed by the factory.

Can that bar be lowered to see "deep" while the image degradation is considered by the end-user as acceptable compromises? The answer is may be. Some mods firms just did that for astro purposes. Kudos to them. Naturally, do not expect S/N will be as good as the original camera factory is willing to give to you. If you are looking for that direction, this thread is not for you. It's about the original LNtech LN-300 or LN-320 devices. There are other threads discussing modified version of the cameras (mainly in vendor forums.) <-- gain fully manually adjustable.

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello

#483 Live_Steam_Mad

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 04:58 PM

These are hard coded by the camera factories. In the most general statement, factory manufacturers worried about image quality. When it degrades the image quality too much, the factory setting simply won't allow to push it further.

View that bar as the "minimum S/N" allowed by the factory.

Can that bar be lowered to see "deep" while the image degradation is considered by the end-user as acceptable compromises? The answer is may be. Some mods firms just did that for astro purposes. Kudos to them. Naturally, do not expect S/N will be as good as the original camera factory is willing to give to you. If you are looking for that direction, this thread is not for you.


Curses :bawling: Yes that is the direction I want to go in i.e. maximum manual control and flexibility out of the camera. If I can't have that then the standard unmodded LNTech camera isn't worth having IMHO. Oh well, time to start saving for a Mallincam JR PRO PC :p

Thanks for the answers.

Best Regards,

Alistair G.

#484 BigDob Al

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 07:59 PM

These are hard coded by the camera factories. In the most general statement, factory manufacturers worried about image quality. When it degrades the image quality too much, the factory setting simply won't allow to push it further.

View that bar as the "minimum S/N" allowed by the factory.

Can that bar be lowered to see "deep" while the image degradation is considered by the end-user as acceptable compromises? The answer is may be. Some mods firms just did that for astro purposes. Kudos to them. Naturally, do not expect S/N will be as good as the original camera factory is willing to give to you. If you are looking for that direction, this thread is not for you.


Curses :bawling: Yes that is the direction I want to go in i.e. maximum manual control and flexibility out of the camera. If I can't have that then the standard unmodded LNTech camera isn't worth having IMHO. Oh well, time to start saving for a Mallincam JR PRO PC :p

Thanks for the answers.

Best Regards,

Alistair G.

Alistair,
I am looking for the same exact thing as you, a camera with as much manual control as possible.
So far I could only find ONE camera vendor , Astro-Video Systems who is offering such cameras .
They have a $400 MK III camera with full manual gain control and manual black level control via standalone remote or computer .
They also have a cooled model but that's more money at $599, still less that a Jr PRo .
This is the cooled model APU-1 and has manual gain, manual black level, color saturation, gamma and a bunch of other adjustments all available to the user.
All other color cameras on the market have only AGC = automatic gain control.
They allow some user intervention to select a high/med/low value or other such system for the AGC range but in the end, it's always the camera who decides how much gain to apply, not the user.
That's why you have to wait for a few minutes for an image to stabilize every time you change the AGC setting .
You're right about the LN300 , I had one and it's almost impossible to control . It feels like it has great potential but couldn't be tapped due to the AGC issue.
If B&W is ok for you, there's Stellacam 2 , 3 or Watec 120 in its several versions , with great sensitivity but no color . It does have manual gain, integration, gamma and there's a cooled version (mucho dinero though).

Clear Skies,
Al

#485 Dwight J

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 09:05 PM

"They also have a cooled model but that's more money at $599, still less that a Jr PRo"

The choice there is between a cooled camera with a 1/3" chip or an uncooled camera with a 1/2" chip. If you live in a climate where nights are warm a cooled camera would be a wise choice.

#486 aloamars

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 11:09 AM

Hello

 

I received my camera (the small one http://www.aliexpres...277770744.html)

 

My question is does the IR filter worth be removed? and what is the best method?

i tried already to heat a bit with a lighter like it was said but it did'nt worked (may be i didn't do long enough)

 

I have tried although to cut aroud with a razor blade, then lift up, but until now i only succed to break a small corner of the filter.

 

if anyone can help, thanks

I'm sorry i know the answer is somewhere in this thread (i almost ready all few month ago), but now it is too long to ready the full thread again...



#487 David B in NM

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 11:15 AM

This is the method I use.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=HSBf_nkTfNE

There will be a film on the glass over the ccd. I use a Q-Tip with a drop or two of windex (glass cleaner) and if that doesn't work, I scratch at it with my finger nail. After the film is removed (glue), I use a piece of an old T-shirt with a little windex to wipe it clean.

There is a clear glass window below the filter when you remove it (covers the ccd). It remains there (don't try to remove it).

Good LUCK!

Added: Yes, it is more sensitive without the IR filter.

David B in NM

Edited by David B in NM, 09 November 2014 - 11:21 AM.


#488 Hilbily

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 11:44 AM

It's a good idea to cover the board with some masking tape to keep any spilled solder from landing where it could cause problems.

Look closely at 26-27 seconds, it looks like she spills a blob off the IR filter on the edge of the board.



#489 David B in NM

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 11:51 AM

I guess I should have mentioned I didn't use the solder. The tape is a good idea if solder is used. Thanks for bringing the reader's attention to it.

David B in NM

#490 ccs_hello

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 11:57 AM

Another method http://www.cloudynig...lued-on-ir-cut/

but you have to have the toy :)   May be other high-heat heatgun would also work.

 

Clear Skies!

 

ccs_hello



#491 aloamars

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 12:08 PM

Thanks for so fast response,

it is much more clear now

 

I have a 25w soldering iron, I will try heating the corners without solder 1st.

If it doesn't work then i will add solder and protect the circuit.



#492 David B in NM

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 12:17 PM

I'd suggest you heat the entire glass filter (not just the corners).

CCS and his toys...you can certainly tell he likes electronics. lol

David B in NM

#493 XRinger

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 01:17 PM

IIRC, I saw one vendor that supplies the camera without the filter. You have to tell them your choice.

Seems like that would be a good way to go for folks without soldering irons.

 

I liked the video, and I think the reason they used solder on the filter, is because a point-to-point contact with the tip of a soldering iron

is going to be very slow to transfer heat, if the filter is anything like glass.

 

By using a hot puddle of liquified solder, you are increasing the point-to-point contact.. And the resultant heat transfer, from slow to very fast.

That's why the video is so short.. :)   The job needs to be done quickly to avoid saturating the sensor and it's solder connections with excessive heat.

 

If you have an adjustable heat iron, practice pooling (on glass) some solder at the lowest temp possible. Then go for it.

 

I've used heat guns a lot. But, since the hot air sprays out in such a wide pattern, I would not use a serious heat gun on my camera..

Too much risk of melting items that don't need melting..

 

I'm glad my DSO-1 came without the filter.. :)

 

Cheers,

Rich

 

 

 



#494 Live_Steam_Mad

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 03:46 PM

Well got the pesky IR filter off and yes it takes heat. however I used a hot air gun used in applying heat srink and it popped off very cleanly.

 

Is this the kind of hot air gun you mean? ;-

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=AeOZMdFMR9g

 

I ordered the PAL LN300 11673 (811) camera from Miracle Cottage on AliExpress (see ;-

 

http://www.cloudynig...n300-pal/page-1

 

...for the lastest on this camera) and I asked for the filter to be removed before it was sent to me, the camera has been dispatched and I wanted a back up plan for if this seller has left the filter on the CCD (as has happened before to at least one other person).

 

BTW the PAL version of this camera CAN do x1024 (20 seconds) exposure with AGC on and still stay in full color, and is more sensitive than the SCB2000 apparently so it's the current favourite for the price.

 

Regards,

 

Alistair G.



#495 Censustaker

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 04:27 PM

Alistar, 

 

I recently removed the IR filter from my camera because they forgot to. I used a cheap soldering iron to do it. I posted pictures in the LN300-PAL thread.

 

 

Jon.




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