853 replies to this topic

[GeneT]

Technology is driving people's interests in all areas. More and more people are moving into imagining, and spending nice sums of money for equipment. Young people are hooked on mobile communications and social media. An astronomy club per se is the 'old kind' of social media. I believe the key is to get more young people to look through a telescope, and that will get some of them hooked. They may or may not join a club, but hopefully will go out viewing alone, or with a few others.

[brianb11213]

This will probably get me flamed but...

Being 60 years old I don't feel qualified anymore to address why the youth aren't entering the hobby. The experience I have had though may be indicative of us older noobs getting out. I have noticed that when I divulge the fact that I have only two years of experience in the hobby my peers have a tendency to not be quite as helpful. On a few occasions I have been told to figure it out myself because "it's not that hard."

Fair enough IMHO. You only really learn by doing. Imitating others is only the first step.

Don't get me wrong it's the exception more than the rule. I donate gear and money to an area club to support the hobby, but one has to pose the question of whether some astronomy clubs have become more of a clique than a freely sharing repository of knowledge. At outreach events I have attended I have yet to see video astronomy in practice. What I do see frequently is wizened geezers posing as Obi Wan Konobi pontificating esoterica over an expensive piece of gear.

I know what you mean. Even CN has far too much emphasis on expensive gear with pointless specifications that don't actually work as well as cheaper, simpler stuff. Especially eyepieces. Best way to turn off potential converts that I know.

I not trying to generalize here, but if it weren't for the communities on the internet that I frequent I'd be pretty bereft of resources.

That's pretty much the way the modern world is. Not just astronomy.

And then there's always the distinct possibility that I am just an old PITA that nobody likes.

Me too ...

[samovu]

CN is my club and I'd rather learn from endless reading and searching on the web anytime I want than to do so by attending meetings. May try that one day but haven't yet.

Trouble is that maybe this has turned into an obsession? I, too, am an old dude that just got started. Also, I'm making sure everyone that wants to upgrade or exit has a chance by buying their used gear when I see it in the classifieds here and on AM

I also agree that young folks are wanting instant gratification and with my two teenage boys that usually means playing video games. At least they have a limit and must earn it.

Cheers,
John

[Jon Isaacs]

CN is my club and I'd rather learn from endless reading and searching on the web anytime I want than to do so by attending meetings.

It is ironic, here we are discussing whether or not amateurs are leaving the hobby on a forum that barely existed 10 years ago and did not exit 20 years ago. This in itself is evidence enough to show that the hobby is thriving.

Jon

[Odell]

Or the boomers got tired of golfing

[BrooksObs]

CN is my club and I'd rather learn from endless reading and searching on the web anytime I want than to do so by attending meetings.

It is ironic, here we are discussing whether or not amateurs are leaving the hobby on a forum that barely existed 10 years ago and did not exit 20 years ago. This in itself is evidence enough to show that the hobby is thriving.

Jon

Unfortunately, this mistaken idea, often taken to be "proof" of a thriving hobby (whatever the hobby may be), really indicates just the opposite to be true.

Internet forums, although very worthwhile and productive shortly after their inception in bringing together a host of folks seriously interested in pursuing the particular hobby in question, (in astronomy bringing together members to form the ICQ, OTA, IMO, AAVSO forums, et al) mostly soon began deteriorating into more of the menial sort of content typical phone social media has become. Several forums from an alternate hobby of mine I simply quit after ten years of participation as their content became almost completely valueless chatter.

More to the point, if one looks carefully over various forums it quickly becomes apparent that, regardless of the supposed countless registered number of forum "members", 90% of posts either originate with, or are responded to by, just a very small core group of usually under 50 persons, even though many forums may have the whole world to draw from. If there truly were 100k or 200k active hobbyists in the U.S., would you really except to only get a small handful of new threads per day? While telescope owners may abound these days, amateur astronomers are a dying breed.

What in reality most internet forums do is to offer a means for the scattered remnants of various hobbies to gather across thousands of miles through the air waves and serves to illustrate how few, not how many, of us actually remain!

BrooksObs

[DTH]

The closet club to me is an hour away. For the time being, I prefer to spend that 2 hour round trip star gazing in my yard or on a friend's property in the country.

Cloudy Nights makes for a nice, informative, and convenient club. I can look up the information I need and ask questions when I can't find the answers to my questions. The internet makes the hobby even easier for noobs in the hobby. At least it has for me.

I have three scopes. Almost all my friends are married, have kids, and little disposable income. They are all excited about my scopes and are always willing to let me setup on their properties. Several ask me about inexpensive telescopes that can get for them and their kids, but goto scopes are what most of them want (easier to find stuff and keep their kids' attention). They don't have that kind of cash to let go and they don't have the time to memorize and/or learn the stars for the four seasons, so they rely on me for their astronomy opportunities. In effect, I am an unofficial club for all of them.

I plan on getting a small cargo trailer to carry all my scopes and equipment at one time so I can set up small star parties for my friends and their friends. I hope some of them will eventually get their own scopes and we can expand and meet regular and invite new people on a regular basis, but this is down the road.

For the record, I bought my first scope two years ago.

[TheObserver]

While telescope owners may abound these days, amateur astronomers are a dying breed.

i will ask to be mummified and put in a museum next to my telescope so the next generation get to see our dying species

[csrlice12]

...and, no doubt, they'll have a dob pointed towards the ground with a car in the background with its headlights on while you and mummyboy sit by the campfire eating pizza.....

[Philler]

i think it's true. there's more people retiring than joining the hobby. how do i know I'll share with you my story
I am relatively young compare to most observers, well at least in the club am in. i had love for astronomy at an early age but i think that's due to the fact i was born in area so dark i can see the milky way with naked eye miss those days . but usually when we host public session and we do that twice a week from March all the way to late October early November, we get a lot of people mostly people in there late 30's mid 40's that get excited and want to know more about the hobby. young generation gets really disappointed by what they see as they all expect Hubble images and they end up leaving few minutes late.

I feel your pain, Sam. I was interested in the stars from childhood, although then I didn't know how to go about exploring the night sky.
I got started in the hobby as a result of a telecommunication magazine we received where I worked at AT&T back in the '80s, that had an article about amateur astronomy and public star parties. One thing led to another and I started with binos, then a scope,and starting going out in the country with them, joined a club, and so on. However, I kind of got away from it in the last 10 years, But this last year, 2013, I started right back in the hobby where I left off. Now that I am retired I have lots more time to a pick clear night or two around a new moon, pack up the car and go out scoping!

Anyway, from reading this thread, It reminds me of this TV commercial (I think it's a car commercial) where a dad decides to get his son, who looks about 9 to 12 years old, away from his computer and I-Pad, and games, or whatever, and take him on this camping trip into this beautiful mountainous area and experience nature and get him away from usual junk that these kids feed on. They fish, swim and spend some quality time looking up, and wondering, and being awed by the all the stars in the night sky!
Maybe that's part of the problem: that maybe parents are just not taking the time to let kids experience nature and the cosmos and let it sink in and be personalized; IOW, allow them to become intimate with family, nature and the night sky.
Now, my dad grew up as a farm kid, and I guess the full blown dark night sky maybe was sort of taken for granted. But my dad did take the time when he could to take me out in the country, sometime to target shoot his 22 rifle, and also to go fishing, but mostly to get me away from what he called the "idiot box." And I'm grateful he did. He didn't seem to know much about the night sky, so we didn't do any sort of father/son star parties.
I think I first became facinated with the night sky was when we were on a family vacation to this lodge in the mountains in Colorado. We had stopped on the way for the night in this little town in western Kansas in August 1962; I was about 14. After dark, I had taken a short cut walking to this gas station to get candy or a pop. The street was pretty dark and I happened to look up at the stars. It was the first time I had ever seen the Milky Way and I was just blown away, I had never seen so many stars!! I told my dad and he said something like, "Oh yea, you gotta be out in the country to really see the stars." But I think that may have been the extent of his astronomical knowledge.

Maybe we have it all wrong: maybe the right approach with young people it not to take the high tech. approach with them, but instead the low tech one that people in this hobby have traditionally used to create interest in the universe.

[Crazyhorse1876]

I feel that TV drives a lot of popular hobbies these days...and these are just my observations. There seems to be a hobby syndrome via what's hot on TV. A few years ago a lot of my friends and neighbors wanted to build their on choppers and motorcycles (TV show). Then it was restore Hot Rods and old muscle cars (TV show). People wanted to learn how to tattoo (TV show). Then they wanted to go picking for antiques ( again...TV show). Now everybody and their brother thinks they need to own a vast amount of weapons and hunting gear and go duck, dove, turkey or deer hunting. Outfitters like Cabela's and Bass Pro Shop are making an even bigger killing now because of a certain "duck TV show". Could you imagine A reality TV show with a couple of brothers and uncles that happen to have and use telescopes to observe the sky at night while having a few beers as a sideline to the base story of the reality TV show? It would probably be a boom to the backyard astronomy industry...lol! Again...these are just MY observations but I think you can get my thinking here.

[TheObserver]

...and, no doubt, they'll have a dob pointed towards the ground with a car in the background with its headlights on while you and mummyboy sit by the campfire eating pizza.....

hahaha it more about the party than the stars thats what those star parties are all about

[TheObserver]

I feel that TV drives a lot of popular hobbies these days...and these are just my observations. There seems to be a hobby syndrome via what's hot on TV. A few years ago a lot of my friends and neighbors wanted to build their on choppers and motorcycles (TV show). Then it was restore Hot Rods and old muscle cars (TV show). People wanted to learn how to tattoo (TV show). Then they wanted to go picking for antiques ( again...TV show). Now everybody and their brother thinks they need to own a vast amount of weapons and hunting gear and go duck, dove, turkey or deer hunting. Outfitters like Cabela's and Bass Pro Shop are making an even bigger killing now because of a certain "duck TV show". Could you imagine A reality TV show with a couple of brothers and uncles that happen to have and use telescopes to observe the sky at night while having a few beers as a sideline to the base story of the reality TV show? It would probably be a boom to the backyard astronomy industry...lol! Again...these are just MY observations but I think you can get my thinking here.

i agree with you on that but i doubt anyone want to watch a show in Night Vision mode hahahahha. plus this days i turn to the science channel to find some show that has nothing to do with science you go figure

[Philler]

I feel that TV drives a lot of popular hobbies these days...and these are just my observations. There seems to be a hobby syndrome via what's hot on TV. A few years ago a lot of my friends and neighbors wanted to build their on choppers and motorcycles (TV show). Then it was restore Hot Rods and old muscle cars (TV show). People wanted to learn how to tattoo (TV show). Then they wanted to go picking for antiques ( again...TV show). Now everybody and their brother thinks they need to own a vast amount of weapons and hunting gear and go duck, dove, turkey or deer hunting. Outfitters like Cabela's and Bass Pro Shop are making an even bigger killing now because of a certain "duck TV show". Could you imagine A reality TV show with a couple of brothers and uncles that happen to have and use telescopes to observe the sky at night while having a few beers as a sideline to the base story of the reality TV show? It would probably be a boom to the backyard astronomy industry...lol! Again...these are just MY observations but I think you can get my thinking here.

i agree with you on that but i doubt anyone want to watch a show in Night Vision mode hahahahha. plus this days i turn to the science channel to find some show that has nothing to do with science you go figure

You got that right. The Science Channel, Discovery Channel, and especially History Channel have all gotten away from their roots and into the pop culture, knucklehead realm.
The Science Channel even showed how out of touch they are sometimes when they did an out of date exoplanet documentary from like 2011. They were about a year and a half behind and only "suspecting" that some systems like Gliese 581 "maybe" have planets in a habitable zone. The casual viewer would leave thinking that that's as far as astronomers had learned, never mind what all, much more, has been learned shortly after in 2012 and 2013 about not only about Gliese 581, Gliese 667, Kepler 22 and especially Kepler 62 systems--and much more. I sometimes wonder just what planet this "Science Channel" is from? Maybe it's the Duck planet or the Pawn Planet.

BTW, Astronomy Magazine, which I have been critical of sometimes in the past, has hit a home run with their Feb, 2014 issue with lots on exoplanets, and Titan, and much more. But, of course, they had to at least have one more article on Comet Dudd.

[svdwal]

Regarding the people doing amateur science, for them there are now lots of different thumgs to choose from. People can write Open Source software, for instance.

And then there's what the professionals are doing. Nowadays they are not particularly interested in variable stars, in double stars, in occultation timings and whatnot. Reading the annual reports of the Leiden Observatory, 80 years ago the pro's did those things too. But after WWII that started to change rapidly. Radio Astronomy, satellites, observatories in the Southern hemisphere, infrared. There were new things to discover and that is were most of the pro's were going to do. And amateurs followed, mainly with astrophotography. Lets put it like this, if the only reason one was doing scientific work was because it was valuable, then the pro's would keep doing it. But most of them started to do something else, so this work is not that important. The people who loved doing variables regardless of the scientific value, kept doing it.

The boom in big aperture happened too. If you can have a scope that shows you details in distant galaxies, people are going to look. While lookimg at galaxies you cannot measure double stars.

[Ian Robinson]

Can offer the observation that amateur astronomy is pricing itself of existance (cf telescope distributers expectations of making LARGE profits).

The poor state of science education in most advanced nations in years 6 thro 12 is also contributing to a dramatic decline in nOObs wanting to join up and get involved too, ie the dumbing down of our kids in order to provide worthless school subjects based on civics and the "soft arts".

JMPOV

[svdwal]

@Ian Robinson

In Europe there's a lot of competition on price. Prices over here are now much lower than 10 years ago. Compare a 1200 Euro Meade ETX90 in 2005 with a 400 euro one currently.

[jgraham]

I wonder if in some ways various hobbies are in decline because of how much we have learned. Way back when I first started (ca. 1962) we knew very little about the moon, planets, and the deep cosmos. There was so much about the hobby that was mysterious and exciting. A homebuilt telescope was this wonderful machine that you could build that let you peer out into this great mystery. Now, that has changed. Telescopes have become an incredibly expensive (though capable) tool in a world full of expensive tools that offer far more in the way of instant gratification. Astronomy still holds a lot of fascination for those that realize how deep and rich this hobby is, but to many it just doesn't have much to offer. Hobbies in general seem to be in dceline as there is so many things today to occupy our time (like this iPad that I'm typing on). I read once that boredom is a very important part of the creative process and that modern technology has taken much of our boredom away and with it much of our curiosity.

Times change...

[Jon Isaacs]

What in reality most internet forums do is to offer a means for the scattered remnants of various hobbies to gather across thousands of miles through the air waves and serves to illustrate how few, not how many, of us actually remain!

BrooksObs

You can't have it both ways... you are here participating in this forum..

My observing friends do not belong to clubs, they rarely buy magazines, they use the internet as a resource. It's a different world, if you judge today's world based on participation in yesterday's world, it should be no surprise that it seems like people are leaving the hobby, the old guard is leaving.. and being replaced by people who are active astronomers but do it differently.

Jon

[BrooksObs]

What in reality most internet forums do is to offer a means for the scattered remnants of various hobbies to gather across thousands of miles through the air waves and serves to illustrate how few, not how many, of us actually remain!

BrooksObs

You can't have it both ways... you are here participating in this forum..

My observing friends do not belong to clubs, they rarely buy magazines, they use the internet as a resource. It's a different world, if you judge today's world based on participation in yesterday's world, it should be no surprise that it seems like people are leaving the hobby, the old guard is leaving.. and being replaced by people who are active astronomers but do it differently.

Jon

Indeed, Jon, I am here now. But look under my screen name and you'll see that I only became active here a little over a year ago. The fact is I was a major internet participant even before actual forums began appearing. I left them all behind as they started becoming little more than just a form of social gathering perhaps a decade ago. I learned that my time could be more productively spent by not bothering with the general astronomy forums, applying my time to writing, being a part of a few very specialized Internet groups, and analyzing amateur observational and technical data for publication. My appearance here was motivated by my impression that CN was perhaps the last internet general astronomy forum of any value and that perhaps my input, based on my long experience in the hobby, might prove of some value here. Most of the other sites I visited seemed to offer more misinformation and B.S. than anything else, reinforcing my opinion that the great Information Highway is really mostly ruts, potholes and detours as far as amateur astronomy is concerned, not abounding with truly dependable/accurate observing advice, or historical information.

Getting back to the original point, I honestly see very few newer hobbyists doing anything of any worth today. That is in stark contrast to the high percentage of those of a generation and more ago who did contribute. Pick up a old copy of S&T sometime and see how avidly the hobby was pursued by hobbyists back in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, then read a copy of say today's Astronomy magazine. You'll see what I mean – there’s really no comparison.

BrooksObs

[Vondragonnoggin]

Information in an of itself, is worthless. Unless it is shared, expounded upon, analyzed, deconstructed, reconstructed in different ways, it offers no value.

Sitting on 50+ years of astronomy knowledge is great for that person only.

Thankfully people do join forums and contribute knowledge. You might have helped only one person in hundreds of posts, but that could very well ripple into helping quite a few and further progressing the field.

I see this in my professional field sometimes. I might meet someone that is a technical guru, but keeps knowledge to themselves touting that they learned on their own and I should too. They never learned on their own. Complete horse manure. I learned my craft from others and actively teach my knowledge to others. It's how I pay it back. I have no need to be concerned that someone might excel with that knowledge past my skill level. If they do, hopefully they can teach me something then.

Once someone stops being teachable, they are limited.

Very glad for all the sharing here. Good and bad. Amidst misinformation is information. Someone will find something of value with many contributions.

I really hope that amateur astronomy morphs with technology and times.

I was interested as a kid and got caught up with earthbound activities for 30+ years, then rediscovered my interest through a child's interest. I guess it was the right time for me. I was financially in a better position to part with funds for the hobby and mentally in a position where it seemed rather worthwhile to part with my funds. Nowadays we have some very affordable entry level equipment that allows some great exploration with proper motivation.

I belong to no clubs. I offer outreach in my neighborhood and encourage friends and coworkers gently. All up to them if they ever have the desire to see something utterly spectacular and gain a little knowledge of where our place is in relation to a vast and almost incomprehensible neighborhood.

Not many are interested. Won't stop me from trying. I get it too. Why they have other things that take precedence. Maybe they're just not ready, maybe they will never be ready, but it's so cool, I'm not going to shut up about how cool it is, just not going to force someone into thinking its cool too. Just offer an opportunity with no pressure.

This year, I want to take my equipment to at least one big event. Maybe that will spark my interest in participating at more public events. Maybe one person will take a look through my equipment and get the bug to purchase their own equipment and share a view with someone else.

It is my opinion that youth today are presented with some very entertaining ways to pass the time here on earth. Rather extraordinary for someone young to latch onto astronomy and stick with it as a hobby with so much else that is available to entertain. My own son lost some interest, but not the memories of us viewing together or getting first scope and binoculars. I kept with it though. Someday he will inherit my scopes and equipment and just might get interested again. It's never too late for interest.

I think retirement age is also a great time to develop interest. I'm trying gently to spark an interest with my father who is retired. Not gonna push it, but just present an opportunity if he feels like it.

That's really all I can do. Smartphones, iPads, planetarium software, Hubble images, all offer quick ways to see what's around us. I think that part is good and all due to sharing information, despite providing plenty of opportunity for the unrealistic expectations at the eyepiece. I will continue to try and add to that knowledge or at least pass some knowledge along whether someone else deems it useful or just more misinformation.

[csa/montana]

CN is my club and I'd rather learn from endless reading and searching on the web anytime I want than to do so by attending meetings.

It is ironic, here we are discussing whether or not amateurs are leaving the hobby on a forum that barely existed 10 years ago and did not exit 20 years ago. This in itself is evidence enough to show that the hobby is thriving.

Jon

The stats for CN doesn't reflect amateurs leaving the hobby:

New Members:
37 Last 24 hours
213 Last 7 days
814 Last 31 days

Boards:
212630 Total topics
2638464 Total replies

Totals:
72266 Members
2851094 Posts

[Jon Isaacs]

Getting back to the original point, I honestly see very few newer hobbyists doing anything of any worth today.

This is a hobby, whether someone is doing real science, educating themselves, enjoying the night sky, relaxing under the stars, they are part of this hobby and they are somehow involved and doing something of worth.

I spend my days doing "science", I spend own time enjoying the night sky and the many wonders there are for me to discover as an individual, if that is not "worthwhile" so be it but this is a hobby, not a job.

Jon

[Astrojensen]

Can offer the observation that amateur astronomy is pricing itself of existance[sic] (cf telescope distributers expectations of making LARGE profits).

Telescopes are cheaper than ever before. For the price of an iPhone 5s, you can get a capable telescope. For the price of a good laptop, not to mention a PC gaming rig, you can get a very, very good telescope.

In the 1930'ies, a 3" refractor cost about the same as the total yearly wage for a schoolteacher. For a farm boy as myself, a telescope would have been an unreachable dream.

Things have changed for the better here. I have modest equipment by modern standards, but I have the most amazing gear by my childhood standards. A 12" f/5 dob at the price I got it for a year ago was completely unthinkable when I began dreaming about telescopes 25 years ago. Back then, that would barely have got you a 6" newtonian. A 4" apochromat cost as much as a new car...


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark

[csa/montana]

cf telescope distributers expectations of making LARGE profits

I think if you talk with a few vendors, such as Astronomics, you will find that they do not have; nor receive LARGE profits on astronomy equipment. If they did, why are so many that used to be around, are now no longer in business?