853 replies to this topic

[bsavoie]

Surveyor 1, that is a little bit obscure. I have tried to understand your message, and I am coming up almost empty. I have not used the term 'Biblical Math'. I used the search engine on this website, and your post is the first reference. So if this term seems to mean something, perhaps a reference to the 666?

 

I have heard that some people think that the number 666 means something. Perhaps you did not make it up, but your math is wrong. Your starting number is infinitely off from PI. PI can not be written down, and it has never been written down, of course because it never ends.

 

I can only assume you think 3.14159 is pi.

 

You are kind of right, but in another way not even close.

 

So if you are putting down my love of math, you must continue your number to get Pi to somehow come out to the number 666.

 

Of course the rest of us know that you could fill the universe with numbers (between 211.9947 and 211.9945) and still not finish writing it down.. the devil is in the details, so they say.. and it appears to be a reasonable assumption.

 

That is why I like science and math.. it is a more descriptive language and it can be checked by others. The truth shall set you free. Within science and math there is a lot of mystery.

 

Bill

[Ron359]

 

Some figures:

1950

Av. household income 3300

Av. car  1510

Av.home 7354

2014

Av income 51017

Av. Car 31252

Med. home 188900

So cars have barely gone up from 50% of income to 60%

But houses have gone up hugely.

Worse is Tuition at a 4 year college: from 18% of annual income in 1950 to 79% of annual income in 2014

Buying a home or going to a 4-year college is being priced out of existence for many working class homes.

Plus, if discretionary income, as a percentage of total, goes down, do not the hobbies based on discretionary income suffer the most?

Actually, cars are much cheaper than they were in the 50s. The number of workdays required to pay for a car may have increased a little, but cars are vastly more efficient and long-lived than they were then.

 

There's a reason that odometers had 5 digits then and have 6 digits now. It used to be a cause for celebration when your car made it to 100,000 miles. These days you feel cheated if it dies before 200,000 miles.

 

Yes, housing and college are the biggies that have increased inordinately. Especially housing. There are ways around the high cost of private colleges, but no inexpensive way to avoid sleeping in the street.

 

And you forgot medical expenses.  Soaring med costs way above 'normal' inflation for years was the leading cause of bankruptcy and those levels were skyrocketing.  Many keep working or take lower paying jobs just for some health ins. coverage.  That cuts way into both discretionary free-time and disposable income.  Loss of pension plans and retirement programs has meant putting much more % of earned income into self-funded 401K type plans if you can do it.  Then events like the crash of 08 wiped out a lot of savings to the point where many will never retire.  

[Peter Besenbruch]

I wouldn't say that finances are a principal reason for amateur astronomy decline now, but they will be in the future.  Consider that the Boomers, Gen X, and the Millennials are producing a paucity of children, and with this infertility will come a decline in the economy, discretionary income, and most importantly, available time. 

 

Births declined over a five year period from 2008-20013. The rate of birth has been increasing in the last couple of years, with births to married women showing the largest increase. Births to single women are still flat to declining, except if they are in their 30s, in which case, they are spiking. Teen births are at record lows but still high when compared to Europe.

 

We are looking at the fallout of a very serious recession, which is only now getting reversed. Women are also putting off births until after establishing a career.

[Peter Besenbruch]

Surveyor 1, that is a little bit obscure. I have tried to understand your message, and I am coming up almost empty. I have not used the term 'Biblical Math'. I used the search engine on this website, and your post is the first reference. So if this term seems to mean something, perhaps a reference to the 666?

 

In the US of A, what others think is a given gets highly politicized. Vast swathes of science get denied, and some of that is starting to spill over to math. Hence, my math equation. It's supposed to be outrageously silly, but in some areas...

 

Biblical Math is a real "thing."

 

If there was a point to my earlier post, it is that you cannot assume that science or math is a "common language," as you put it.

[schang]

I know curiosity and math are very important, ...

 
Did you know that 3.14159*211.9946=666?
 
No, I didn't make that one up. Neither did I make up the term "Biblical Math."

What is the significance of that number, 211.9946?

[Peter Besenbruch]

What is the significance of that number, 211.9946?

 

It's what you multiply 3.14159 by to get 666.

Edited by Peter Besenbruch, 01 June 2015 - 06:25 PM.

[Mr. Bill]

 

What is the significance of that number, 211.9946?

 

It's what you multiply 3.14159 by to get 666.

 

 

Hand calculators......where is this thread going?

Edited by Mr. Bill, 01 June 2015 - 06:53 PM.

[Mr. Bill]

 

......where is this thread going?

To hell in a bucket, but at least it's enjoying the ride.

 

[bsavoie]

Yes, we are all different. But math and science can bring us together.. yes, living here in Alabama is very strange. I look at the stars and know it isn't really an issue.

 Bill

[dUbeni]

Speaking from the land of the OP I must say that economic crisis does affect all hobbies, some more then others, amateur fishing increased for obvious reasons, it brings food. Amateur astronomy may or may not have decreased, one thing for sure I did not go to any star party or event, with the exception of the partial sun eclipse back in March, 500 yards from home, due to financial constraints, I see some of amateurs I know still posting on CN, FB or other foreign forums since our's (meaning Portuguese) went down 4 years ago when the crisis hit harder.

 

CN is like my club now, I do miss the live meetings though, and I owe all of my knowledge on amateur astronomy to the internet and some books I found on the internet.

I'm 58 years old and only started observing the skies at the age of 50, as the expression goes "curiosity killed the cat" that's what happened to me, I had seen plenty of Hubble pictures on the internet but it didn't mean much to me, well! yeah... professional telescopes, meaning that I never thought it was possible to actually observe anything other than the Moon, and please blame it on toy telescope I had tried a decade before, at a friend's house, where I had a hard time watching the Moon, it was shaking all over.

The first time I looked trough a slightly more serious telescope, a 114/900 newtonian reflector, I was hooked, it was amazing to observe Saturn, Jupiter, M42 and many other things that all of sudden unveil in front of me, it was magical, I can really see this "things" up close.

And because this first telescope was still shaky, flimsy mount, I took it back to the big shopping that sold it, and looked for one on the internet, and found one with a better mount. So yes I agree thoroughly that one can start this hobby with a moderate budget well below 1000, at least I did. Of course you will invest more if we're hooked 

 

Visual is still a must for me, although I did consider astrophotography from very early on, and have been gathering some accessories for it, I feel kind of sad when I mount the camera and I'm not able to watch with my own eyes    

 

Here I am "talking" to CN, on the other side of the Atlantic... this was hard or impossible 20 years ago, I see my wife's daughter speaking to her net friends in South Korea, Japan, etc. about "Manga" and the like. It's her interest and she is now studying multi-media arts. This new environment is forever changing social habits on the world population. The amount of information on www is a blessing for amateur astronomers like me, I would have not evolved my skills without you guys!

The friends of her brother sometimes ask him if I have my telescope set up because they like to come and take a peek at the moon or whatever I show to them, they will stay for a while and then they go about their business, usually bars where youngsters meet for mating season. Sometimes I wish I had their age simply because of quality eyesight.

 

Are amateurs leaving astronomy hobby?

I don't really have an answer for that, but I don't see it as an endangered species. I'm definitely a fruit of the Moon race, so maybe an event like a Mars expedition, a very large comet, or an asteroid impact can arouse a new interest in astronomy as a hobby, or not, one thing would help for sure removing light pollution and toy telescopes. 

 

Clear skies to you all

bernardo

 

[dUbeni]

Just one more thing, my parents bought their first Tv expressly for the live transmission of the Apollo 11 and first moon landing, I was a kid (12) and stayed up late night watching it with my parents, brothers and sisters, it was epic, that's all I can say, and I was definitely infected by a mole that woke up much later. 

[SirHuddleston]

How can anybody square the assertion that interest in astronomy is dying off, or returning to normal, or whatever, when Galaxy Zoo is getting hundreds of thousands of volunteers? People are interested in astronomy -- they're just interested in astronomy, not in stargazing, which are two very different things. I've done both, and I can definitely understand the attitude that viewing galaxies as faint fuzzy objects, standing out in the cold, is stupid: we have space based cameras and can take day long exposures of the same region and understand what we're seeing much better that way.

 

From what I've read on this thread, stargazing as eulogized by so many is akin to hunting or arctic exploration -- it's an expression of libertarianism, where the target is stellar objects. But the driver is the libertarian ethos, not astronomical wonder per se. I can understand the counter attitude -- it could be every man with his own scope finding the same object to be faint and hard to understand -- or we could pool our resources and get a massively detailed image which we can all share. We need both types, I think, and I'm glad to see that they're both out there.

[jrbarnett]

Some figures:

1950

Av. household income 3300

Av. car  1510

Av.home 7354

2014

Av income 51017

Av. Car 31252

Med. home 188900

So cars have barely gone up from 50% of income to 60%

But houses have gone up hugely.

Worse is Tuition at a 4 year college: from 18% of annual income in 1950 to 79% of annual income in 2014

Buying a home or going to a 4-year college is being priced out of existence for many working class homes.

Plus, if discretionary income, as a percentage of total, goes down, do not the hobbies based on discretionary income suffer the most?

Worst of all is the increase in the cost of consumables.  Groceries and energy are both much more costly inflation adjusted than they used to be.

 

I'm not so sure about college tuition though.  Certainly private schools are expensive, but most of the best among them provide free rides now (no tuition)  for students who qualify to get in but whose parents lack large incomes (i.e., under $100k household income; tuition is comped).  Public schools for residents aren't that expensive.  Tuition for San Jose State, for example, is $7800 a year.  That's just 15% of the average income.  It's the incidentals that kill you - housing, utilities, transportation.  If your child is going to school away from home, you are essentially maintaining two households with two sets of household expenses.

 

What gets hidden in these statistics though is that today part of the increased costs of living are in the form of luxuries that most take for granted today, which simply did not exist in the 50s, 60s or 70s.  "Goat cheese on your salad, sir?  Some Grey Poupon?  Granite counters in the kitchen?"    So while we all certainly spend more as a percentage of our income today, the things we spend it on are materially different in many cases - much "cushier".

 

I still think that it is possible to live quite cheaply.  Pick an efficient vehicle or take public transportation or bicycle.  Live someplace cheap geographically - I just sold a 2 bedroom 1 bath house in decent shape in southern Illinois for about $25k; less than the price of the average car.  Eat simply - whole foods prepared from scratch, no fast food, prepared food, etc.  Buy clothing on clearance from clearance outlets (Marshall's, Ross, TJ Maxx, Sierra Trading Post, etc.).  But most don't want to live that way any longer.  They all want their MTV or iPad or F-150 or whatever.  

 

- Jim

[jrbarnett]

Guys, I just got weirded out.  If you divide 1964, my birth year, by 2.9489489489489(etc.), you get "666".  Maybe I'm the Anti-Christ?

 

On the other hand, if you divide my age by 1.1904, you get "42", the answer to everything.  So now I feel better.

 

- Jim

[Pinbout]

Guys, I just got weirded out.  If you divide 1964, my birth year, by 2.9489489489489(etc.), you get "666".  Maybe I'm the Anti-Christ?

 

On the other hand, if you divide my age by 1.1904, you get "42", the answer to everything.  So now I feel better.

 

- Jim

No the 666 has to be tattooed to your scalp under your hair, havent you seen the movie?

 

The bible got it wrong, the movie is correct.   

[bsavoie]

Sometimes we get into negative merging.. people who like to fight as a form of intimacy. We can't always assume that people are saying words to mean they want to communicate, some want to get under our skin and have a intense exchange of complicated ideas.

 

Best is to be face to face, but then people still might enjoy negative merging.

 

Math is still a working language, and science still takes political voting. (No 'scientific truth' just a working theory, and the politics of who buys it.) Which brings me back to the subject. No simple way to use rules and dogma to simulate life, our life must be more alive than that. No real place for 'got ya' to find a good home.

 

What can find a good home, is the technology of astronomy. The equipment used, and the improvements that can be shared with others.

 

Negative merging, this setting hooks out to catch others, is just not that interesting.

 

Bill

Edited by bsavoie, 04 June 2015 - 07:19 AM.

[Starman1]

Guys, I just got weirded out.  If you divide 1964, my birth year, by 2.9489489489489(etc.), you get "666".  Maybe I'm the Anti-Christ?

 

On the other hand, if you divide my age by 1.1904, you get "42", the answer to everything.  So now I feel better.

 

- Jim

I had a friend who did everything half-***.

He got a tattoo that read 333.

 

Seriously, read Juliet Schorr's book "The Overworked American" which very cogently explains the want>work to afford>want more>work more to afford more spiral we've been on since post WWII.

Edited by Starman1, 03 June 2015 - 11:57 PM.

[bsavoie]

Astronomy is the place where we as infinite complexity can meet the outside as infinite complexity. We might eventually see that we are everything, not different in any real way, like leaves on the same tree. All is this and we are too.

[bunyon]

Forget goat cheese on my salad.  I now own a whole boatload of astronomy gear, most of which had not been invented when I started (1983).  It's great, but, yeah, I could do astronomy as done in 1983 for a lot less than I'm doing it today.  Had I known, in 1983 (or more accurately, had my parents/future wife known in 1983) where things were going, they probably don't buy me the gear. 

 

But you're not getting my OIII filter for anything.

[Bomber Bob]

Astronomy is the place where we as infinite complexity can meet the outside as infinite complexity.

 

Like desiring like makes sense to me.  My astronomy is not scientific, and I'm not ashamed of that.  My tools & reference materials are rational only by necessity;  my observing experience is pure emotion -- every clear night is a meeting of old friends with lots of stories to tell.

 

As it relates to the original question:  I'm hopeful that the "ME Generation" will grow up, and stop navel-gazing, as there are more important & wonderful things in the universe than one's self.  I also hope we're misinterpreting, and that the decline of "club" astronomy is a transition to "global community" astronomy -- we're just not there yet.

Edited by Bomber Bob, 04 June 2015 - 10:17 AM.

[csrlice12]

There is no "ME" generation.....they're a subset of all people and come in all ages, colors, nationalities, and races.....unfortunately, we usually elect these clowns to political office or promote them to upper management......they've been there since the dawn of man...and will be there after we're long gone.....

[ypsiladdie]

How can anybody square the assertion that interest in astronomy is dying off, or returning to normal, or whatever, when Galaxy Zoo is getting hundreds of thousands of volunteers? People are interested in astronomy -- they're just interested in astronomy, not in stargazing, which are two very different things. I've done both, and I can definitely understand the attitude that viewing galaxies as faint fuzzy objects, standing out in the cold, is stupid: we have space based cameras and can take day long exposures of the same region and understand what we're seeing much better that way.

 

From what I've read on this thread, stargazing as eulogized by so many is akin to hunting or arctic exploration -- it's an expression of libertarianism, where the target is stellar objects. But the driver is the libertarian ethos, not astronomical wonder per se. I can understand the counter attitude -- it could be every man with his own scope finding the same object to be faint and hard to understand -- or we could pool our resources and get a massively detailed image which we can all share. We need both types, I think, and I'm glad to see that they're both out there.

 

The five hundred pound gorilla in the room?  Or could it be the 226.796 kilogram gorilla?

[ypsiladdie]

 

Some figures:

1950

Av. household income 3300

Av. car  1510

Av.home 7354

2014

Av income 51017

Av. Car 31252

Med. home 188900

So cars have barely gone up from 50% of income to 60%

But houses have gone up hugely.

Worse is Tuition at a 4 year college: from 18% of annual income in 1950 to 79% of annual income in 2014

Buying a home or going to a 4-year college is being priced out of existence for many working class homes.

Plus, if discretionary income, as a percentage of total, goes down, do not the hobbies based on discretionary income suffer the most?

Worst of all is the increase in the cost of consumables.  Groceries and energy are both much more costly inflation adjusted than they used to be.

 

I'm not so sure about college tuition though.  Certainly private schools are expensive, but most of the best among them provide free rides now (no tuition)  for students who qualify to get in but whose parents lack large incomes (i.e., under $100k household income; tuition is comped).  Public schools for residents aren't that expensive.  Tuition for San Jose State, for example, is $7800 a year.  That's just 15% of the average income.  It's the incidentals that kill you - housing, utilities, transportation.  If your child is going to school away from home, you are essentially maintaining two households with two sets of household expenses.

 

What gets hidden in these statistics though is that today part of the increased costs of living are in the form of luxuries that most take for granted today, which simply did not exist in the 50s, 60s or 70s.  "Goat cheese on your salad, sir?  Some Grey Poupon?  Granite counters in the kitchen?"    So while we all certainly spend more as a percentage of our income today, the things we spend it on are materially different in many cases - much "cushier".

 

I still think that it is possible to live quite cheaply.  Pick an efficient vehicle or take public transportation or bicycle.  Live someplace cheap geographically - I just sold a 2 bedroom 1 bath house in decent shape in southern Illinois for about $25k; less than the price of the average car.  Eat simply - whole foods prepared from scratch, no fast food, prepared food, etc.  Buy clothing on clearance from clearance outlets (Marshall's, Ross, TJ Maxx, Sierra Trading Post, etc.).  But most don't want to live that way any longer.  They all want their MTV or iPad or F-150 or whatever.  

 

- Jim

 

 

I agree, until children and your aging parents come to stay...then you will learn the value of time and money.  Personal hobbies like astronomy will take a backseat, considerably...

[Bomber Bob]

There is no "ME" generation...

 

"According to the U.S. Census, the Boomer generation numbers 76.4 million people or 29 percent of the U.S. population."  -->  http://www.smithsoni...0953030/?no-ist

[csrlice12]

There is no "ME" generation...

 

"According to the U.S. Census, the Boomer generation numbers 76.4 million people or 29 percent of the U.S. population."  -->  http://www.smithsoni...0953030/?no-ist

I didn't know that they made paint brushes that big...