Are Amateurs leaving astronomy hobby?
#76
Posted 05 January 2014 - 11:42 PM
#77
Posted 05 January 2014 - 11:55 PM
just to let you know, alot of people that were or are members here also belong to astronomy forum. net also. i've seen same helpful service to beginners there also. just saying. astronomers on the whole are nice people willing to share their experience with other people.
You say these good things about astronomy forums.net. But did you have to sign up first to find out? My only complaint was, how would I know how good they were if I had to sign up on the dotted line to find out?
I think astronomy forums.net should change their policy and allow visitors time to look over and read the posts on their forums. If they are as good as you say they are, they should draw lots of new members to sign up.
#78
Posted 06 January 2014 - 12:10 AM
just to let you know, alot of people that were or are members here also belong to astronomy forum. net also. i've seen same helpful service to beginners there also. just saying. astronomers on the whole are nice people willing to share their experience with other people.
You say these good things about astronomy forums.net. But did you have to sign up first to find out? My only complaint was, how would I know how good they were if I had to sign up on the dotted line to find out?
I think astronomy forums.net should change their policy and allow visitors time to look over and read the posts on their forums. If they are as good as you say they are, they should draw lots of new members to sign up.
It's not like they charge you. It's free. They probably want to up their memberships. The forum over there is moderated well and there are lots of helpful experienced guys and gals there.
Some places charge for membership. Thankfully CN and Astronomy Forum don't charge a thing. I see a few faces here that are over there too.
#79
Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:23 AM
However, with the encroachment of more and more light pollution, as well as the intrusion of large numbers of both aircraft and satellites into the heavens, I've seen these types of individual become less and less represented among amateur astronomers; it is axiomatic that when there is less beauty in a given venue, lovers of it will seek beauty elsewhere.
#80
Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:32 AM
The hobby has gone from a small group of hardcore enthusiasts to a more expanded group of casual observers.
I do not know what it takes to classify a "hobby"?
Does going to church in a casual manner qualify an individual as belonging to the religion? Does absence from the church but a proclamation of belief entitle one to be called "religious"? Does one have to be a hardcore fundamentalist to be considered "religious"?
In the same vein, does being part of the astronomy hobby mean one has to belong to a club, go to star parties, or subscribe to magazines? Does purchasing a telescope entitle one to be called an amateur astronomer?
Bottom line, telescopes sell, who is buying them? I highly doubt a small core of amateur astronomers in their dotage are gobbling up the majority of the telescope sales pie.
Furthermore, living habits have changed. Jobs pay less in proportion to prices, people work more, longer hours, and are more likely to spend time living in apartments for a more significant percentage of their lives. The shift to casual entertainment is what this modern day is all about - and astronomy as a hobby has become more casual and less hardcore.
Whatever opinions one may have in this regard, bottom line, telescopes do sell, someone is buying them, and the hobby has moved away from the hardcore to the more casual observer. What one considers to be the classification / threshold for someone being "active in the hobby" is always going to be subjective.
In my opinion, the hobby is strong even if its catchment is a small % of the population and the % of hardcore to casual observers is growing smaller year by year. But these aspects are true of any hobby, including fishing, archery, hunting, birding, and so on....
#81
Posted 06 January 2014 - 02:41 AM
Rinse, repeat.
#82
Posted 06 January 2014 - 10:09 AM
Thank you very much for your dedicated and careful considerations, concerning the reality at your own Countries and States.
I'm 63 years old now and I made my first telescope in 1966, so I saw many fashions and trends in amateur astronomy along all that time.
I have further information supporting the reality at my country.
1. The economical situation of Portugal, with more than 17% unemployment, and salaries reduced by government decisions, can have some effect, but indeed we see here the restaurants are full of people, we see new and good cars, Soccer games have all tickets sold, etc. So, is seems people prefer to spend their money in other things. Young people prefer other gadgets...Economical situation do not explains everything,
2. As author of 5 (five) books concerning astronomy, astronomical observations and telescopes:
http://www.wook.pt/p.../5235/fsel/8066
and also translated in English and publlished by Springer-Verlag:
http://www.springer....echniques/bo...
and also in Spanish:
http://www.amazon.es...4236176/ref=...
I feel my books are selling less and less, now they sell about 1/8 of what they were in year 2000 (and by year 2000 I had only half of the books I have now). So, more books, new books, doubling the number of titles and less sales in grand total is a good indicator). [non fiction books here are selling less and less].
3. Young people want instantaneous satisfation when they look trough any telescope. They expect unrealistic images. When they look through an amateur telescope, with trully excellent images, they expect "Hubble style images". They compare (consciently or not) what they observe with their memories of Hubble images or other images they already saw at Internet.
4. When I show something through telescopes to young people, at schools, star parties, Astrofests, etc., the majotity of them say things like: "That's all", "I only see this?", "You call me to see only this?", "I came here to see just only this?"
I'm 63 years old now, but when I had their age I would be very happy if I could see at all a so good image as they look now. Of course I tell them about what they are seeing, explain a visual direct vew is not the same as a photo, justify atmospheric turbulence,etc., but very few of them are entusiastic with what they see (even if the image is excellent, be it the Moon, a planet, the Sun, a Galaxy, a Double star, a star cluster or a nebula).
I am professionally a retired Physics teacher with some astronomy education, working for more than 36 years, so I now how to deal and fire curiousity of young people, but I see this decline of WOW factor and curiosity is more and more evident. They require more and more spectacular things ("Lucas-Spielberg styple") to get amazed!!!
Certainly there are very few exceptions but in general the youngers do not fill amazed at the perspective of use a telescope on observe with it. It seems, even at USA, a telescope if not the top gift a child, or a young boy/girlg, wants by Christmas time os by his/her anniversary! (but iis WAS) ....
5. Many amateurs think that the "Zenit" or Apogee" of the amateur astronomy "career" is to make astrophotography. I think astrophotography is just an area of amateur astronomy, among other areas, but some people think an upgraded amateur is an astrophotographer, period. Visual is frequently (and wrongly)seen as inferior approach to the hobby.
6. So, we have here amateurs that make excellent astrophotographies, as you can see (as mere exemples) at:
www.astrosurf.com/re
www.astrosurf.com/ramalho
www.astrosurf.com/pcasquinha/
However, I admire their images (and they are my friends), but I refuse to consider astrophotography is the top graduation (or "Apogee") of an amateur astronomer.
7. Another problem is as amateurs are more and more "advanced" they do not have patience to talk, or teach (or explain things), to the novice who wants to know simple things as how to find the Big Deeper or the Lion at the sky, etc. Off course there are a few exceptions, but this is the "main current". As a result, newcamers do not fill confortable.
8. "Advanced" amateurs, or amateurs that think themselves they are "advanced" use complicated and technical words/jargon and therms that the novice do not understands at all. So, novices are side by side with other amateurs and they do not understand what the others are talking about...In this situations, the newcamers do not fill confortable and go away.
May be at other countries (as our Colleague in Denmark already said) the problem can be different of the one I'm describing.
Regards
Guilherme de Almeida
#83
Posted 06 January 2014 - 10:43 AM
Really are not interested in the subset of things you can see in a telescope, since we can see and learn so much more with more modern tools?
Really are not interested in spending our nights and losing sleep over staring at things in the sky? (And really, if I want to use the stars to navigate by night, that's and entirely different skill-set, too).
Perhaps we actually have other hobbies too that we spend our time on and are actually good at, and 'instant gratification' doesn't really factor into your equation?
Can we discover things just by looking through a 6" telescope? New things, I mean. How about 8" or 12"? No, not really anymore? Perhaps that makes it a 'been there, done that' hobby. If I saw the bands of Jupiter or the GRS, do I really care to see it again? More specifically, do I care to lose sleep to see it again? I can see far better images of Jupiter by doing a search in google. Why should I be accused of wanting instant gratification here? I want to see something that you might not be able to see at all through that telescope!
There's some romanticism in looking up and staring at things in the sky, sure - and observing planets and stars. But it isn't for everyone. Some of us might want to do photometry, look deeper into the universe than you ever can with visual observing, or do a variety of other things in terms of astronomy, many of which may not even involve a telescope (or at least, not our own ).
#84
Posted 06 January 2014 - 11:26 AM
My interests are a bit different, too. I approach astronomy now more as a photographic side-hobby than for science or such. I did that years ago and it was fun. Now I'm more into visual artistry through photography. And it's just easier doing it on my own.
The forums here are great, though, and I enjoy participating as I can. But there's only so much time these days.
#85
Posted 06 January 2014 - 11:56 AM
Have you considered that perhaps us young people:
Really are not interested in the subset of things you can see in a telescope, since we can see and learn so much more with more modern tools?
I guess the difference between you and me (an old fossil) is that I find a real difference between actually "seeing" something and merely looking at its picture. I prefer the former.
#86
Posted 06 January 2014 - 12:30 PM
#87
Posted 06 January 2014 - 12:37 PM
#88
Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:37 PM
The difference between you and me is exactly what you stated, but age doesn't factor into it. I think seeing things in a telescope is neat (I have one, and I'm on this forum ) but I can see a lot more in a picture. I can see a lot more of what interests me, too - things you will never see in a telescope.
My point was that this isn't some sort of instant gratification thing - too many efficiencies are being branded as 'instant gratification'. Granted, I don't need to spend much time to look at a picture of say, Jupiter. But I can glean a lot more from that moment of looking at it than I would by looking through a telescope.
Same thing with the Orion Nebula, and many other things.
I'm cool with just seeing things ... but in this case, there's more to it than meets the eye.
So perhaps the difference is that you're a dedicated visual observer, and I'm not. I know young people who would be like you though, and some that would be like me.
I know other hobbies where there are splits like this as well so to me this isn't unusual. It's like any field ... in physics, math, chemistry there are fields and subfields and specialists in all of them ... and they complement each other.
And that's how it is with this hobby, too, despite inaccurate predictions of its demise
#89
Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:40 PM
Have you considered that perhaps us young people:
Really are not interested in the subset of things you can see in a telescope, since we can see and learn so much more with more modern tools?
Really are not interested in spending our nights and losing sleep over staring at things in the sky? (And really, if I want to use the stars to navigate by night, that's and entirely different skill-set, too).
Perhaps we actually have other hobbies too that we spend our time on and are actually good at, and 'instant gratification' doesn't really factor into your equation?
Can we discover things just by looking through a 6" telescope? New things, I mean. How about 8" or 12"? No, not really anymore? Perhaps that makes it a 'been there, done that' hobby. If I saw the bands of Jupiter or the GRS, do I really care to see it again? More specifically, do I care to lose sleep to see it again? I can see far better images of Jupiter by doing a search in google. Why should I be accused of wanting instant gratification here? I want to see something that you might not be able to see at all through that telescope!
There's some romanticism in looking up and staring at things in the sky, sure - and observing planets and stars. But it isn't for everyone. Some of us might want to do photometry, look deeper into the universe than you ever can with visual observing, or do a variety of other things in terms of astronomy, many of which may not even involve a telescope (or at least, not our own ).
I think everyone has considered that. What you describe could be construed as being jaded. But, it's true, the sky isn't as mysterious as it once was.
I guess it all depends on your definition of Amateur Astronomy. I think the OP was referring to the old-school definition.
BUT: Remember, O'Neil's Nebula (do I have that right?) was discovered just a couple of years ago by a guy using a 3" telescope. Things do get discovered by amateurs, even today. But if you're not interested in looking yourself, you won't find anything. You can find images online that are far more appealing than the real thing is through a telescope. But you're not observing. If amateur astronomy equates to observing the heavens for the love of doing it (which is, actually, what it means, if you look up the two words), then you have left the hobby.
But I don't hold with such a rigid definition. You should enjoy the subject in whatever way pleases you, and don't worry about what anyone else thinks!
#90
Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:44 PM
[I think everyone has considered that. What you describe could be construed as being jaded. But, it's true, the sky isn't as mysterious as it once was.
I guess it all depends on your definition of Amateur Astronomy. I think the OP was referring to the old-school definition.
Maybe I am a bit jaded, I don't know. My definition of Astronomy is the science of it, though when I think of it I do usually thing of someone looking through a telescope.
BUT: Remember, O'Neil's Nebula (do I have that right?) was discovered just a couple of years ago by a guy using a 3" telescope. Things do get discovered by amateurs, even today. But if you're not interested in looking yourself, you won't find anything. You can find images online that are far more appealing than the real thing is through a telescope. But you're not observing. If amateur astronomy equates to observing the heavens for the love of doing it (which is, actually, what it means, if you look up the two words), then you have left the hobby.
Agreed, but what I want to say here is that my means of 'looking' is simply different. And perhaps so are my goals.
But I don't hold with such a rigid definition. You should enjoy the subject in whatever way pleases you, and don't worry about what anyone else thinks!
Thanks for your response
#91
Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:49 PM
2. As author of 5 (five) books concerning astronomy, astronomical observations and telescopes:
http://www.wook.pt/p.../5235/fsel/8066
and also translated in English and publlished by Springer-Verlag:
http://www.springer....echniques/bo...
and also in Spanish:
http://www.amazon.es...4236176/ref=...
I feel my books are selling less and less, now they sell about 1/8 of what they were in year 2000 (and by year 2000 I had only half of the books I have now). So, more books, new books, doubling the number of titles and less sales in grand total is a good indicator). [non fiction books here are selling less and less].
Your work Navigating The Night Sky is a fine introduction to visual astronomy, and I would highly recommend it to any beginning amateur. It may be that your books are not selling as well as they formerly did due to the many similar but much less well-written works on the same subject which have flooded the market in recent years; that, and the fact that people do indeed seem to be devouring non-fiction at a greater rate. Escapism always seems to sell well, whether it be science fiction or romance; sadly, it takes up more and more shelf space at our local libraries, due entirely to popular demand.
3. Young people want instantaneous satisfation when they look through any telescope. They expect unrealistic images. When they look through an amateur telescope, with trully excellent images, they expect "Hubble style images". They compare (consciently or not) what they observe with their memories of Hubble images or other images they already saw at Internet.
4. When I show something through telescopes to young people, at schools, star parties, Astrofests, etc., the majotity of them say things like: "That's all", "I only see this?", "You call me to see only this?", "I came here to see just only this?"
I'm 63 years old now, but when I had their age I would be very happy if I could see at all a so good image as they look now. Of course I tell them about what they are seeing, explain a visual direct vew is not the same as a photo, justify atmospheric turbulence,etc., but very few of them are entusiastic with what they see (even if the image is excellent, be it the Moon, a planet, the Sun, a Galaxy, a Double star, a star cluster or a nebula).
I am professionally a retired Physics teacher with some astronomy education, working for more than 36 years, so I now how to deal and fire curiousity of young people, but I see this decline of WOW factor and curiosity is more and more evident. They require more and more spectacular things ("Lucas-Spielberg styple") to get amazed!!!
Certainly there are very few exceptions but in general the youngers do not fill amazed at the perspective of use a telescope on observe with it. It seems, even at USA, a telescope if not the top gift a child, or a young boy/girlg, wants by Christmas time os by his/her anniversary! (but iis WAS) ....
This behavior among young people is, sadly, not limited to astronomy. Certainly, the proliferation of dramatic images from space-borne instruments has led many to become jaded and unexcited at viewing the actual objects in real life without the intermediary of electronics, however, the same effect has become noticeable in many other areas of life. Plain vanilla ice cream tries to compete with a universe of exotic flavors and blends, a simple cup of coffee is no longer sufficient for devotees of Starbucks, and the proliferation of online pornography and the false perfection it portrays has left many men (and women) dissatisfied with their partners.
People's mind's can take a very wrong turn when plied with endless "ultimate" experiences; it is akin to drug use, where ever-increasing dosages are required to attain the same euphoria as previously experienced. Slowly but surely the normal, simple pleasures of life slip away, resulting in a population that is always looking for the most extreme experience, and which has no use for the quiet contemplation, under the stars or otherwise, that is required to attain self-knowledge.
5. Many amateurs think that the "Zenit" or Apogee" of the amateur astronomy "career" is to make astrophotography. I think astrophotography is just an area of amateur astronomy, among other areas, but some people think an upgraded amateur is an astrophotographer, period. Visual is frequently (and wrongly)seen as inferior approach to the hobby.
6. So, we have here amateurs that make excellent astrophotographies, as you can see (as mere exemples) at:
www.astrosurf.com/re
www.astrosurf.com/ramalho
www.astrosurf.com/pcasquinha/
However, I admire their images (and they are my friends), but I refuse to consider astrophotography is the top graduation (or "Apogee") of an amateur astronomer.
While almost entirely a visual observer, I, too, have friends who are primarily interested in astrophotography, and fortunately we all consider ourselves equals as students of the night sky. However, certain other astrophotographers I have encountered seemed to be considerably less egalitarian, and due to this I would not consider them as people who I would wish to become friends with...
7. Another problem is as amateurs are more and more "advanced" they do not have patience to talk, or teach (or explain things), to the novice who wants to know simple things as how to find the Big Deeper or the Lion at the sky, etc. Off course there are a few exceptions, but this is the "main current". As a result, newcamers do not fill confortable.
8. "Advanced" amateurs, or amateurs that think themselves they are "advanced" use complicated and technical words/jargon and therms that the novice do not understands at all. So, novices are side by side with other amateurs and they do not understand what the others are talking about...In this situations, the newcamers do not fill confortable and go away.
There is a degree of this type of behavior present here in the U.S., but it is not endemic, at least not in my experience. There have been a few truly "ivory tower" individuals that I have run into over the years, but they all seemed to exhibit this behavior due to unmet ego needs; more's the pity...
#92
Posted 06 January 2014 - 02:51 PM
While telescope owners may abound these days, amateur astronomers are a dying breed.
i will ask to be mummified and put in a museum next to my telescope so the next generation get to see our dying species
I was sorta joking, but I told my wife I wanted my Portaball to be buried with me. She had already spoken up for this, so we will probably have to have two grave sites for two people and my telescope.
#93
Posted 06 January 2014 - 02:54 PM
#94
Posted 06 January 2014 - 04:57 PM
In some ways astrophotography as been a big help, particularly if you can show how you can get good results with fairly simple equipment (which you can).
Amateur astronomy is a feature-rich hobby with quite a few different opportunities depending on your interests. It is nice when you have a group that accepts and encourages them all rather than trying to impose arbitrary rules as to what is and isn't amateur astronomy.
#95
Posted 06 January 2014 - 05:00 PM
Interesting observation about people being disappointed in what they can see, and the reasons why. All those pictures being released by the pro's in order to encourage an interest in Astronomy are actually killing the amateur scene.
It seems to me that the fastest growing sector of the backyard astronomy hobby is imaging and video astronomy. Imagers like Ken Craford, Rogelio Andreo, Bill Snyder, Jim Thommes, Jerry Lodriguss to name a few and all members here show just what is capable with equipment that not so long ago wasn't even available to the backyarder.
And then there's video astronomy. Night Skies Network has a large group of video astronomers that broadcast their views for all to see. And that group is a tiny fraction of those that have decided to fight light pollution with video cameras.
Imaging isn't taking anything from the hobby, it's a different subset of the hobby.
David
#96
Posted 06 January 2014 - 05:46 PM
Bill
#97
Posted 06 January 2014 - 07:05 PM
And then there's video astronomy. Night Skies Network has a large group of video astronomers that broadcast their views for all to see. And that group is a tiny fraction of those that have decided to fight light pollution with video cameras.
While I think that NSN is a fine idea, and that the amateurs involved are certainly proficient and produce wonderful images, I do not believe that they are in any real sense fighting light pollution; if anything, they are acquiescing to it. Amateurs that are, to a greater or lesser degree, placated in regards to light pollution by their ability to image under poor conditions are probably much less likely to exert efforts to reduce the very light pollution that seems to bother their pursuit relatively little.
Imaging isn't taking anything from the hobby, it's a different subset of the hobby.
I agree completely; for the most part it has done nothing but bring good things to the table. However, imaging will never replace the sense of immediacy that is present when putting eye to eyepiece, and that subset of the avocation is very much threatened by the spread of light pollution, among other things.
Fred
#98
Posted 06 January 2014 - 07:27 PM
Pete
#99
Posted 06 January 2014 - 10:48 PM
Al
#100
Posted 06 January 2014 - 11:36 PM
I have also spent a little bit of time checking out the local astronomy society. From what I've noticed is that a lot of people involved in the group don't even observe! They aren't a very welcoming bunch, and there seems to be an overall lack of excitement in the group. I post about buying a new scope, and no one cares. I attended a local observing session and not a single member came up to me and said anything to me. Quite disappointing.
I don't think that interest is lacking in astronomy. I think the interest in local astronomy groups is lacking. I would rather take my scope out alone with my wife and my dogs and enjoy their company over the people I met at the astronomy society meetings and outings.