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Edmund Palomar JR,, Deluxe Space Conquerer, 4.25"

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#26 Chuck Hards

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 07:10 PM

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#27 apfever

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 08:15 PM

That dirty ring around the collar.

Toss them in some HOT water. You don't have to boil them but get it HOT. This softens up the rubber. I've done a lot of these down to badly weathered hard bushings. I've never had one come apart or lose print in the HOT water. It's good to have a fine feel with the flanges so you can detect flex and stress in the bakelite rings. Then push one edge of the ribber in and out of the hole. Keep pushing in on the bushing edge as you work more out of the hole.

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#28 apfever

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 08:18 PM

Soap, water, and sponge under warm running water. I haven't had print come off yet, at least not major. Itsy Bitsy loss can be pin striped back in if you have the touch for it, but never a loss bad enough for me to try.

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#29 apfever

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 08:31 PM

The circles rubbed with machine oil, especially the in and out edges, then left to soak over night. The bushings rubbed with machine oil and wax (dry lube teflon and wax spray). The bushing worked, flexed, and massaged. These soaked it all in and took a few hits of oil and wax. I finally lubed them and put them in a ziplock to soak for the night. The groove for the circle was well treated using a toothbrush.

The Q-Tips were for cleaning the bronze bushings in the shaft housings. This is a final before assembly. I use 4 or 5 drops of machine oil and wipe till clean. After a lot of mounts, it averages about 4 Q-tips per mount, or one per bushing...roughly.

Those 3 washers in the top left corner of the picture are Teflon and one auto oil pan plug gasket. Originals are leather (older) or Teflon (new). I've seen many mounts with none on the back of the RA shaft since this faces down and is under only preload. I prefer all 4 stops have a gasket. The oil plug fiber gasket is made for grease and oil and is ideal for the job. I had to wait to get a nother one (bought 5 while I was at ACE).

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#30 apfever

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:29 PM

This picture was tough to take with one hand. It shows how you can squeeze the bushing and make it potato chip like a poorly edge supported mirror. The circle can then be nested into the groove on the squeezed end of the bushing for starters. It's a matter of working it around from there. It does get tight but I haven't broke a circle yet. Get the bushing WARM first.

The circles were wiped dry from the oil soak. The bushings were re-oiled and then wiped dry to remove any wax buildup.

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#31 apfever

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:41 PM

This is a mock up picture but it shows the idea of laying everything out before assembly to make sure things fit. I'm using a stop collar on the back but I wanted enough shaft on the back to mount the motor drive later. This is how I hard set the top stop collar location which everything builds on.

I left the top Teflon washer dry but Super Lubed the bottom fiber gasket. A light wipe of SuperLube on the shaft at bearing locations and the lock knob location. The horderve picks are for SuperLubing the bronze shaft bearing interiors.

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#32 apfever

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:52 PM

Done with piers and mounts.

This is my extra mount with long shafts and housings. The older shorter version is on the scope. I'll box this one. The drive will fit on the older ones but it is a squeeze. The drive will have to be rotated on the short shafts, to a non standard position, in order to better clear the pier and hub. I may use this longer one to mount the drive.

The picture doesn't show it well, but the ends of the shaft lock knobs were rounded and polished. These do not need to grind into the shafts to hold the scope. At least not if you balance even remotely correct. These are light OTA's.

On to the OTA.

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#33 Chuck Hards

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 07:42 AM

Showroom condition. Perfect!

#34 apfever

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 09:46 AM

Thanks Chuck,

Every change so far has been a totally reversible mod. The original bolts, screws, even focuser knobs, go into the original parts bag and stay with the scope. Scratch that: I can't reverse having painted the grey. I did not paint the OTA.

There are TWO permanent mods to consider, and I WILL do one of them in the near future. First off the shafts are straight all the way with no recesses. Compare a straight shaft with this picture of the Edmund 6" SSC shaft, showing a machined recess in the lock knob contact area. The lock knob can create ridges and divots on the shaft when abused . The recess keeps this damage from creating a raised spot that would prevent the shaft from being removed through the bushings, or would damage the bushings if pressed out. The DSC 4.25" is a light scope and I have not seen any bad damage yet from lock knob abuse. Not BAD damage, but some. Lightly rounding the tip of the knob and greasing the shaft in the contact area will help prevent this - a lot. These shafts are small, so any machining to install a recess should be minimal. I don't think this light a scope really needs it in proper use.

The second mod that I WILL do is drilling and tapping a standard 1/4 - 20 hole in the back of the weight shaft extensions for a toe guard. Yeah, a nice looking washer and knob (matching lock knob style) TOE GUARD! They aren't just for safety. My standard approach is to put the weight on a shaft loose and let it rest against the guard during set up. This gives maximum stability and you don't have to do an unecessary clamping just to hold the weight prior to balancing.

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#35 apfever

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 11:15 AM

Dang, I'm going through the SSC thread to coordinate and I forgot to mention this nice little mod. link SSC. The orignial ALT bolt (hand) is short, ferrous, and fully threaded. I replaced it with a SS shoulder bolt so the pier hub and mount did not ride on theads. There are two washers on each side since the shoulder was slightly long and I didn't want to be short. I have a die to cut the threads but I'm OK with the washers. Washers have rounded and cupped faces so I put the rounded faces on the mount finish and bolt ends. The bolt was a over length in order to get the shoulder length I wanted. I cut it to length then rounded the end on the grinder and polished up with 220, 400, and finally 600 grit sand paper. The SS bolt on the pier is an extra, same as the one used.

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#36 amicus sidera

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 07:47 PM

Rounding and polishing that screw end is a pro touch, Neil; my inner machinist sends his compliments. :cool:

#37 apfever

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 08:52 PM

This is simple no brainer common garage stuff. I round the end by a series of hand rotating motion on the side of the grinder. I have a water tray to dip cool the piece. The sanding and polishing is done with the paper on a soft back so the bolt contacts a larger surface than just spot contact from paper on a hard surface. I experimented with this. I started by putting the sand paper on a thin cloth such as an old T shirt rag on the concrete shop floor. My final choice ended up being corrugated cardboard. I just use a handy cardboard box. Put the sandpaper on a side of the box, and make random angled rotating circles. The final 600 grit is with well used sandpaper. A fresh sheet of 600 grit will quickly lose the hush sanding sound and go to a silent polishing action.
I haven't used my 220V heavy equipment in a long time. I have a beautifull 1918, 2000 pound screw cutting lathe with a 16" throw and long bed. I did some resto on the lathe itself and she's PURTY. However, I've done so much in the basement with 'garage' equipment that the lathe is now socked in and unaccessable in the barn. I turn a lot of stuff, including shafts, on the drill press. Anything long or heavy on the drill press requires knowing how to jig a live end...or passive end.

#38 Herr Ointment

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 06:08 AM

I didn't know what was in the two boxes with my name on them that xmas in 1974.

That Edmund scope was the biggest surprise and the best gift I have ever received.

I also remember that it didn't clear up until late January.

Great job on these. Thanks!

#39 RacerX69

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 02:19 PM

So how many of the Edmund scopes do you have Neil?

#40 MtnGoat

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 05:05 PM

Beautiful work and great tips!

I have one of these, not sure of when it was produced. I'm on the fence wether to clean it up or sell it, but this thread is chock full of tips for restoration regardless.

#41 apfever

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 10:39 AM

So how many of the Edmund scopes do you have Neil?


One Deluxe Conc., fully restored.
One Super Conc., fully restored.

One Edmund/Anchor 'Deluxe Conc.'
This is the early 50's version of the common DSC from when Edmund bought out Anchor in the 50's. It still has the Anchor name plate. Not officially restored, but in such great condition that it only needs an occasional dusting. This came with a complete set of the early black eyepieces with focal lengths in inches, including the unmarked 1".

One 6" red tube on the beige internal drive GEM, fully restored.
Anyone having one of these needs to check and reset the gear mesh which tends to have been butchered at the factory. The factory setting is so offset that I have seen consistent damage on them. I have a complete string on this scope, with gear fix, on CN somewhere.

One AstroScan, 1970 vintage verified by Edmund.

One 4" refractor. This one is a special proto type experimentation by Joseph A. Cocozza who worked for Edmund.
It needs clean up but is fully functional. Cocozza was a tinker nut.

Edmund 8" space age Fork mount.
I have about 3 of these in need of restoration. My final keeper will be a rather rare factory original with the monster OAG focuser. Edmund sold the OAG separately, but rather few factory installed sets labeled as the model 4004.
One of them is a total Cocozza tinker basket case.

Edmund 6" space age Fork mount.
I have two of these in need of restoration.

Oh, forgot the Edmund 8" gray pier.
Edmund never named this scope as far as i know. It was just called the 8". This goes along with the DSC and SSC in time and style. Needs restoration, which I'd like to get on but I've a lot of projects.

I have some cool undesignated old finders on the parts shelf.

That's about all I can think of while I sit here. I'd have to walk the rooms with pencil and paper to be sure, but that's about it.

All the RKE and the barlow, lots of papers, lots of the papers downloads, some cool original. I'm planning on printing out Fred's article for the archives. Lot's of bits and pieces not practical to list, largely because I have no idea what exactly.


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#42 apfever

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 03:22 PM

Final post. I believe only the OTA is left. I have no pictures during the work. This has all just been put into the 6" Super Space Conquerer thread. That thread and this one carry a ton of cross over reference. Go there for anything on the OTA, and a lot of other goodies appropriate for this DSC thread.

Thread here: SSC

Questions welcome.

#43 wrnchhead

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:14 PM

Neil, I am working on my own mount as you know, and I've ran across an issue I can't determine the answer to. (I have looked closely at your and other's photos before asking) My cap has a 5/8ths inch hole, in which someone put two pieces of copper tubing to take up the slack for the 3/8ths bolt. It's a terrible fit and also just terrible in general. The declination housing I have is the welded sheet metal type, a formed u-shaped piece of steel that straddles the top of the cap. 

 

Now, I can procure or make a proper bushing to fit the top of the cap, but I am wondering if there's something that's supposed to be in there performing some function that i'm unaware of. Thank you again. 

 

IMG_6935.JPG

 

 



#44 apfever

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:44 PM

Go back to post #11 in this string. That shows the top of the pier cap. The hole in the cap is a match to the bolt, 3/8" I believe. You have a cap that looks factory cast for the SSC tang width, but it has a larger hole used for the DSC 6" scope. The 6" Deluxe Conq. bolt is 5/8" so see if that matches your cap.

Those early days could have any hodge podge of changes, experimentations, and mishaps with figuring out the production. Your cap could be a single item mistake or they could have had a box of them made, or they could have been intended for the 6" scopes if the early DEC housing tang fits in that thin area. Hmmm, It could be this casting was meant for both SSC and DSC. Can you give me distance from hole center to where the casting steps out, shown in picture?

post-279137-0-22801400-1510791271_thumb.jpg

I did take mine apart just now to confirm it has a smaller hole that matches the bolt.

Edited by apfever, 15 November 2017 - 09:45 PM.


#45 wrnchhead

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 11:43 PM

Ok, it's exactly 1" from hole center to casting step. 



#46 John Higbee

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 06:35 AM

Neil - I'm beginning the refurb of my mid-60's Deluxe Space Conqueror (just got the optics back from recoating at Majestic).  Over the years. both setting circles were damaged and have pieces missing.  Haven't found any replacements on line...are there any templates for creating new ones?

 

thanks, John


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#47 apfever

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:28 AM

Ok, it's exactly 1" from hole center to casting step.


OK, that cap will accomodate the older style 6" DSC mount. Here is the early RA housing for the 6", showing how the tang is less than 1" from hole center to edge and will nest in the cap you have. I've seen at least 4 different caps and probably more I don't remember, and you can see the crazy variety of different mount castings in the above links and strings. Who knows where Edmund was when they were trying to figure things out. It could be quite possible that your funky bushing set is a factory original adaption to get the scope out the door.

An official bushing to go from 5/8" to 3/8" should be easy to find at a good hardware store. You'd be better off at a stand alone hardware like ACE instead of a box store like Home DePot or Lowely's. You might have to trim the length. I'd forget trying to research an 'original' configuration since my experience shows Edmund didn't have a set one, and they changed things on a constant basis.

NOTE: Your cap would not be good for a 6". The smaller early 6" RA housing tang had a very hard time holding the mount and scope in position. Edmund went to a much larger tang that had a set screw added to help hold the lattitude setting. That larger tang would NOT fit in your cap.

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Edited by apfever, 16 November 2017 - 09:45 AM.


#48 apfever

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:40 AM

Neil - I'm beginning the refurb of my mid-60's Deluxe Space Conqueror (just got the optics back from recoating at Majestic).  Over the years. both setting circles were damaged and have pieces missing.  Haven't found any replacements on line...are there any templates for creating new ones?
 
thanks, John


None that I know of. I don't have any loose ones to photo right now. I have one 6" mount with the circles for restoration, and only the DEC is intact, the RA circle has a chunk out. Maybe some one can photo a set with measurements, and you could edit to print out a template. I'd do it if I had a complete set for restoration. I don't have time to take apart a finished restoration. I gave away extras.

#49 DAVIDG

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:43 AM

 There are full size drawings of the setting circles in "Sam Brown's All About Telescopes"

 

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#50 wrnchhead

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 10:12 AM

Ok, great, thank you so much! I have Ace hardware in my city, I will pick one up. And a shouldered bolt. The existing rusty one is fully threaded. 




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