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The Takahashi Abbe Ortho, a brief summary

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#1 SpooPoker

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 01:17 AM

Greetings all,

 

With full of vigor during the long weekend vacation eating too much and observing near Ukiah, northern California, I had the opportunity to enjoy some half decent viewing conditions and to test some eyepieces that the North Bay extended June/July/August Gloom successfully scuppered.

 

The Takahashi 1.25" Abbe Ortho, we all know them, many of us no doubt have been tempted to pop at them.  Yeah, the sizes stink - where is the 5mm and the 7mm for starters?  Why is there a 32mm ortho in any case when a perfectly good 30mm exists in the LE lineup?  If ever there was a pointless size for an ortho this was surely it.  Price wise, 150bucks is a little pricey maybe for a regular ortho, but it is Takahashi, so perhaps it is better than the rest.  That is at least what I thought, so I duly obliged and popped at a couple (6mm and 9mm). 

 

I am not sure on orthoscopics anymore, where they stand in the hierarchy, the pantheon of eyepiece goodness.  ZAO-II's and Pentax XO's apart, every orthoscopic I have owned or tested has been trumped by Brandon, several Plossl's, and Monocentrics.  Even the glasshouse behemoths like the Pentax XW, Delos or Ethos has given most fair orthoscopics a run for their money.  But that is for another discussion, a rainy day one preferably. 

 

Back to orthos:

 

Most of us are familiar with the 0.965" Takahashi HD ortho.  They were good eyepieces but reports of them excelling the cheaper and more commonly available Vixen made 0.965" ortho are not too common.  Some say better, some say no real difference.  I had always been on the side that thought they were just regular old orthoscopics, good eyepieces, but no better than competiting orthos of the time.  The CZJ 0.965's had a distinct edge, while the Zeiss made Pentax 0.965" orthos were the top dog in this barrel size.

 

What are the contemporary 1.25" Takahashi Orthoscopic competition (in the ortho domain)?  Fujiyama / Astro Hutech / Baader Genuine Orthos / Baader Classic Orthos / University HD Orthos, and of course the Zeiss ZAO-I and II's.  At the time of purchase, I guessed that the Tak's would be second in line behind the excellent ZAO-I/II, but probably better than the University Optics Ortho.   I was wrong on the second count.  After intense observation, a lot of soul searching, a lot of nail biting, my conclusion is this:  Takahashi have done it again, marketed a generic and garden variety orthoscopic that is absolutely no better than it's competition.  It is no worse of course, but one could get a University Optics Ortho for a mere 95bucks - that is 55bucks less than the Takahashi.  One could be forgiven for griping that essentially they have paid for a brand but got no different to something less brandy.  Of course, the super thrifty folks could shop the second hand market for moderately cheap (<$50) vintage volcano top Celestrons or University orthos and not come out worse observing wise.

 

I dragged a couple of scopes for the trip.  Lucky it was just me and the wife.  Luggage in the trunk, an 8" f/6 Newt barely fitting the back set, and a 127mm f/9 APO placed on top.  Do not ask how the mounts made it in - needless to say I took them apart.  I also took a vintage Pentax Asahi 60mm/800mm for the ride (so make that 3 scopes). 

 

Eyepiece wise, I will not bother writing up detailed notes on how the Takahashi Abbe Orthos compared against some others, lets just say you get what you pay for.  I will stick to the comparison with orthos I had - pure and simple - apples to apples.  The orthos in question were Vixen made Celestron Volcano Tops, Baader Genuine Orthos, a Meade RG ortho, and a couple of University Optics orthos. 

 

On the 9mm scale, I had a direct comparison between the Takahashi, a Baader Genuine Ortho, and a Celestron/Vixen Volcano Ortho.  In all three scopes, on the Moon, Saturn, Mars, and a few larger fuzzies, there was no ostensible difference between any of these.  My wife, whom has better averted vision than me, reported that the Baader Genuine Ortho came out trumps here.  On lunar and planets, we both agreed, none of these eyepieces particularly excelled nor did any outperform each other.  To pick a winner here, I will just go with the Baader Genuine Ortho based on my other half's preference for it - me personally, a three way tie. 

 

On the 6mm scale, a more critical test, I could muster up a comparison between the University Optics HD, Takahashi Abbe, Celestron/Vixen, and a 7mm Meade Research Grade ortho.  The 7mm RG ortho produced less magnification although it was the best eyepiece of this lot, but also the eyepiece that will show atmospheric disturbances slightly less.  Bottom line, not fair.  The Celestron/Vixen ortho was just not as sharp as the University Optics 6mm, while the Takahashi may as well have been a clone - a more expensive clone.   Winner, Meade RG ortho, but to be fair, it should be excluded.  New winner = tie between the TAK and University Optics.

 

I sincerely believe the Takahashi Abbes are absolutely the same eyepieces as the University Optics HD ones, available for $95 versus $150.  They have the same light transmission, they have exactly the same FOV, the optics may as well have been manufactured and coated in the same factory.

 

The Takahashi Abbes are by no means bad eyepieces, they are good.  Just no better than the immediate competition (I am sure the Fujiyamas and so on will be in the same bracket).   The 6mm and 9mm sizes will no doubt be attractive to those that have a full set of LE's where both fill a size gap in regards to a full "TAK" eyepiece collection.  Beyond that, if choosing between the Takahashi Abbes over the new University Optics HD's, one would be wise to remember that for the $150 spend, one could get the University Optics Ortho. a pizza, and a couple of six packs.  Do not deny yourselves the guilty pleasures of life.



#2 george golitzin

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:06 AM

Thanks for your report.  That's at least one data point in favor of the Tak = UOHD = Fujiyama theory.   But tell me, how was the seeing--was it good enough to make a critical distinction?   (BTW I'm in Petaluma;  we haven't had particularly noteworthy seeing lately.)   Also, you didn't have a well-placed planet to test them on, just the Moon.  Not knocking your conclusion, just want to put it in perspective;  you seem quite clear that they're the same eyepiece.  I think it's a reasonable hypothesis, but others have disagreed, notably Piergiovanni Salimbeni at http://www.binomania.it/, who put them just second, and nearly equal, to the tmb monocentrics after some lengthy testing.  Here's his report summarized on page 8 of the thread:  http://www.cloudynig...e-series/page-8


Edited by george golitzin, 02 September 2014 - 02:08 AM.


#3 tomjones

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 04:32 AM

After looking at Jupiter and Mars this spring thru a 10" with most every 6mm ortho/plossl,

 

 they give 240x, a good starting power for the planets, the Takahashi 6mm is the best ortho 

 

you can buy new today.  Sure it's 2nd rate compared to yesteryears greats, but not by much.

 

Didn't have a Brandon, believe they would be close, but every ortho you can get new today

 

can be ranked by price.   Tak=top, Baader Classic=bottom, everything else in the middle

 

and about the same viewing wise.

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#4 precaud

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 08:47 AM

Great report, very useful info, thank you (and your wife).



#5 JimOfOakCreek

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:07 AM

I am an ortho fanatic. I have a collection of new and vintage orthos. I have become interested in the new Tak orthos. But your report gives me pause. If the Taks = the UOs I may try to complete my collection with BGOs and UO HD orthos instead.



#6 SteveC

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:28 AM

Excellent report. Doing these sorts of reviews are problematic.  In a sea of mediocrity,  finding differences or something to report can be frustrating. 



#7 fjs

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:44 PM

For the 6mm; did you use a currently available new University Optics HD?



#8 ThomasM

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 06:27 PM


 

I sincerely believe the Takahashi Abbes are absolutely the same eyepieces as the University Optics HD ones, available for $95 versus $150.  They have the same light transmission, they have exactly the same FOV, the optics may as well have been manufactured and coated in the same factory.

 

 

A few days a go I purchaised a 12,5 mm Takahasi Ortho. It might be that the lenses of the Takahashi Abbes are very similar, or the design is identical  to that of the Baader Genuine, Universtiy HD or Kasai HC Orthos. The coatings - at least of the 12,5 mm Takahashi - definitely differ substantially from all orthos I have tested so far, Baader Genuine, Kasai HC, Baader Classic Ortho, they are clearly darker. The transmissin of the Baader Classic Ortho (10 mm, 18 mm) and Genuine Ortho 12,5 mm is already extremly good, between 97 and 98 %, so it is not so surprising that you can not see a difference in light transmission. Who knows if the highly ranked Zeiss Abbe orthos I and II are really visibly better,  may be it is just a myth. Only a' blind' test would give a definit answer, has anobody performed a such test?


Edited by ThomasM, 02 December 2016 - 06:29 PM.


#9 EverlastingSky

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 09:01 PM

I bought a new Takahashi 6mm early on when they first became available - hoping for a worthy improvement over my UO volcano top that filled this 6mm slot. The Tak has a cooler neutral tint, in my opinion, as compared to the UO. Physical construction seemed was identical to the $99 Fujiyama (I had the 4mm version to compare to). It was speculated here in the past that, maybe / hopefully, the extra cost of the Tak could be due to a higher polish applied. The Tak had slightly better scatter control over the UO, perhaps just due to the newer coatings, most likely.

 

As an aside, the 7mm Delite was very impressive for contrast and scatter control and replaced them (6mm's) on the longer side & provided a very compelling ortho substitute at lower magnifications that work better on poorer nights  A Pentax 5XO knocked out all of the 6mm's "from the low side" too... now that is a truly remarkable eyepiece. A revelation of sorts.

 

I did have both the Vixen / Celestron 6mm & 9mm volcano tops a year or so earlier, but they were sincerely lacking in my opinion. They are also not true Abbe orthos.


Edited by EverlastingSky, 02 December 2016 - 09:06 PM.


#10 Scott99

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Posted 03 December 2016 - 05:54 PM

>>The Tak has a cooler neutral tint, in my opinion, as compared to the UO. Physical construction seemed was identical to the $99 Fujiyama (I had the 4mm version to compare to).

 

Really?  The Tak and Fujiyama bodies look very different to me.  I did prefer the more substantial Tak body with eyeguard but the Fujis are very nice too.



#11 areyoukiddingme

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Posted 03 December 2016 - 07:20 PM

I have the 6mm Tak and the UO HD 6mm. I can only tell the views apart b/c there's a slight burr at the field stop in the Tak.

 

It seems very plausible that they are made in the same factory.



#12 GeneT

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Posted 03 December 2016 - 11:18 PM

Excellent, well thought out report with a lot of specificity. I found it very helpful. Thank you for it.



#13 ThomasM

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 04:57 AM

I have the 6mm Tak and the UO HD 6mm. I can only tell the views apart b/c there's a slight burr at the field stop in the Tak.

 

It seems very plausible that they are made in the same factory.

I have three points:

 

1. It might be that the Takahashi, Universtity HD, Baader Genuine, Kasai, Kokusai Fujiama Orthos are all made by the same company. But that doesn not mean that they are the same, at least the Kasai and the Tak Orthos 12,5 mm are different, barrel and coatings. Zeiss has produced Abbe orthos starting 100 years ago, nobody would argue that they are all the same.

2. Presently you can buy the Takahashi and the Kokusai Fujiama Orthos, in  Europe you pay at least extra 60 Euro for the Tak. So is there any difference in the optics (glass, lens polish, coatings..)?

3. A more general point, if I compare a modern  12,5 mm 8 lenses 5 groups eyepiece like baader Morpheus with the same focal length Ortho, if there is a difference in centre sharpness (in a small apochromatic refrcator with. let's say f/6), contrast, scattering, light transmission it is very tiny. With that in mind, can you expect to see any differences between the most recent orthos, i.e. Takahashi, Kokusai, Baader Classic? Can you expect that the legends like Zeiss Orthos I and II , Pentax XO, TMB monocentric are  really a step above?

 

Thomas


Edited by ThomasM, 04 December 2016 - 05:22 AM.



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