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Is Sony Really Alpha?

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#2151 nofxrx

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 07:13 AM

No offense,

but this reply to Mike on a DSLR/gen cam forum doesn't make sense???????

What makes you think Mike is trying to mislead that the cameras are the SAME besides the sensor,

which IMO is more important than 'everything else' especially when there is a price difference (context of the DSLR forum section) $3k v $7k, not to mention ability to use as a normal camera.

Just because you don't find his sensor sharing devices chart helpful doesn't make it not helpful to others,

therefore your post violates your own requirement.

proceed forth..

If everything else is the same why bother paying $7k for the camera when you can get "the same image quality" from a $3k camera? But yet, there is a difference, and people still buy the more expensive camera.

I am not disagreeing with you about the usefulness of having a daytime/dual-purpose camera or that these are not great cameras, because they are.

I didnt see his post as only a sensor level comparison so I guess I took it out of context...my bad.



#2152 sharkmelley

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 07:52 AM

If everything else is the same why bother paying $7k for the camera when you can get "the same image quality" from a $3k camera? 

Good question. 

 

Given that they use the same sensor, I argue that in many cases an RGB image from a modified DSLR or mirrorless camera is indistinguishable from an RGB image from a far more expensive dedicated OSC astro-camera.  The mirrorless camera also has many benefits in terms of versatility.  Having said that, the cooled astro-camera will have an advantage if thermal noise is an issue or if a narrowband filter is being used because the cooling reduces the noise.

 

Mark


Edited by sharkmelley, 07 April 2021 - 08:20 AM.

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#2153 rgsalinger

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 10:05 AM

Sony Alpha a7S III Mirrorless Digital Camera sells for $3500. The QHY600 with the same chip sells for $4600. Those are USA prices from large dealers. I'm not arguing for one or the other, just pointing out that I can't see where the 7K versus 3K comparison is coming from. Maybe things are different in other countries. 

 

Rgrds-Ross



#2154 tim53

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 10:06 AM

The Alpha game...

I'm interested in seeing what other camera manufacturers will come out with models using the 61MP chip.  At the moment, in addition to the A7r4, there's the upcoming Sigma fp-l, which would be ideal (to me) for astrophotography because of its small size (could be used with a hyperstar or at the focus of a large and fast Parabolic mirror and a coma corrector), IF ONLY it could be tethered to a computer and had long bulb exposures possible.  

 

Are there users here who are using the A7r4 for astrophotography?  How do you like the camera?  I continue to reside on the fence between spending for a dedicated astro camera with this chip in it, or a mirrorless camera that I can also use for landscape photography.

 

-Tim.


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#2155 sharkmelley

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 11:14 AM

Sony Alpha a7S III Mirrorless Digital Camera sells for $3500. The QHY600 with the same chip sells for $4600.

The Sony A7SIII is 12Mpixels but the QHY600 is 60Mpixels.  They are definitely not the same chip!

 

Mark


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#2156 rgsalinger

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 12:16 PM

Sorry about that. I copy pasted without looking carefully enough. Still, Sony Alpha a7R IV Mirrorless Digital Camera is the same price at B&H and that has the same IMX455 chip. I hope I got it right this time. 

 

So, the point is still that the difference is around $1100. I also noticed that the price on the QHY600 with the consumer chip seemed to be up by around $600.


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#2157 mmalik

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 11:30 PM

Are there users here who are using the A7r4 for astrophotography?  How do you like the camera?  I continue to reside on the fence between spending for a dedicated astro camera with this chip in it, or a mirrorless camera that I can also use for landscape photography.

While same sensor, a7RIV and ASI6200MM Pro for example would be quite different animals, given the NO Bayer matrix of the later. In such a scenario, of course dedicated one will be preferred.

 

 

If you are talking ASI6200MC Pro for example, then a7RIV of course would make more sense. Regards


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#2158 mmalik

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 11:47 PM

So, the point is still that the difference is around $1100. I also noticed that the price on the QHY600 with the consumer chip seemed to be up by around $600.

If you go for ASI6200MM Pro instead, the difference with a7RIV becomes $500. QHY charges premium prices for whatever they offer, which to me doesn't make sense. Given these devices are becoming quite expendable and getting obsolete by the day, why pay premium prices for the same IMX (whatever the grade).

 

 

Tech cycle has become so transient that no matter how much money we throw at these devices, they are going to be paper weights in no time.

 

 

Wishful thinking... at this point if Sony were to offer one MILC in mono (...preferably a7SIII or FX3), game would be over for the dedicated. Regards


Edited by mmalik, 07 April 2021 - 11:48 PM.


#2159 AnakChan

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Posted 08 April 2021 - 04:15 AM

Good question. 

 

Given that they use the same sensor, I argue that in many cases an RGB image from a modified DSLR or mirrorless camera is indistinguishable from an RGB image from a far more expensive dedicated OSC astro-camera.  The mirrorless camera also has many benefits in terms of versatility.  Having said that, the cooled astro-camera will have an advantage if thermal noise is an issue or if a narrowband filter is being used because the cooling reduces the noise.

 

Mark

But I have a cooled Sony A7S, and I gladly paid more not to have Sony's algorithm.



#2160 Dagryl

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Posted 08 April 2021 - 05:17 AM

We should write a petition to Sony to release two new astrophotography dedicated cameras, one color and one mono. :D


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#2161 mmalik

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Posted 08 April 2021 - 07:04 AM

We should write a petition to Sony to release two new astrophotography dedicated cameras, one color and one mono. laugh.gif

I am all for it if someone knows the process? Regards



#2162 SandyHouTex

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Posted 08 April 2021 - 09:39 AM

We should write a petition to Sony to release two new astrophotography dedicated cameras, one color and one mono. laugh.gif

Good luck with that.  They won’t even modify their “star eater” software after years of complaints.


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#2163 nofxrx

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Posted 08 April 2021 - 09:51 AM

I'm not arguing for one or the other, just pointing out that I can't see where the 7K versus 3K comparison is coming from. Maybe things are different in other countries. 

 

Rgrds-Ross

You're right, t_image brought up $7k figure and I was thinking maybe he meant ~$7k for a mono version plus CFW and filters, etc. 

But then we would be comparing mono setup to OSC MILC...which is kind of how I took Mike's chart because it didnt specify OSC or Mono models for the QHY/ASI cameras.



#2164 mmalik

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Posted 08 April 2021 - 10:10 AM

Good luck with that.  They won’t even modify their “star eater” software after years of complaints.

Star eater was more of a policy matter for Sony so they didn't budge. Sony also knows they are over due for an 'a' version or 'mono' version, doing it would be a different story. Then there are market ramifications, a mono Sony will bankrupt whole lot of companies. Regards

 

 

Note; I despise Leica; they have had mono for ages but they hobble it to the point where it can't be used for astro. No bulb exposures, etc. Quite a sadistic company in my opinion.


Edited by mmalik, 09 April 2021 - 12:04 AM.

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#2165 xonefs

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Posted 08 April 2021 - 01:39 PM



 

Are there users here who are using the A7r4 for astrophotography?  How do you like the camera?  I continue to reside on the fence between spending for a dedicated astro camera with this chip in it, or a mirrorless camera that I can also use for landscape photography.

 

-Tim.

Yes, I have a full spectrum a7riv- I didnt get it for astro mainly but I use it as a secondary cam (I have a mono astro cam). I strap my a7riv and redcat on top of my main scope currently.

 

Sony is annoying for not working as easily with some astro software, but I only really use asiair havent tried pc software. 

 

Image quality is amazing and I would love a second full spectrum a7riv- to keep one on the redcat and another for nightscapes or on a small tracker. But I also do a lot fo daytime IR which it is great at.

 

this is just an hour or so of one frame of the a7RIV and redcat strapped on my main scope while I was aimed towards eagle, with minimal editing- 

 

RJwDrDeh.jpg

 

If I was just looking at OSC astro cams I would def consider it over one, but if you are getting a true dedicated astro cam I would want mono to shoot narrowband. if you want the ease of a system like asiair then you are stuck with a zwo astro cam instead.


Edited by xonefs, 08 April 2021 - 01:41 PM.

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#2166 tsk1979

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 12:40 AM

a7r-IV 

 

Yes, I have a full spectrum a7riv- I didnt get it for astro mainly but I use it as a secondary cam (I have a mono astro cam). I strap my a7riv and redcat on top of my main scope currently.

 

Sony is annoying for not working as easily with some astro software, but I only really use asiair havent tried pc software. 

 

Image quality is amazing and I would love a second full spectrum a7riv- to keep one on the redcat and another for nightscapes or on a small tracker. But I also do a lot fo daytime IR which it is great at.

 

this is just an hour or so of one frame of the a7RIV and redcat strapped on my main scope while I was aimed towards eagle, with minimal editing- 

 

RJwDrDeh.jpg

 

If I was just looking at OSC astro cams I would def consider it over one, but if you are getting a true dedicated astro cam I would want mono to shoot narrowband. if you want the ease of a system like asiair then you are stuck with a zwo astro cam instead.

Amazing! which other software you do use for imaging. or only asi air?

I am contemplating getting an APS-C sony for imaging but am worried about 2 things

 

1. Internal IR floodlight - Mmalik will guide me here I don't worry too much about that

2. N.I.N.A compatibility or stellarmate compatibility. A7S works, but don't know which APS-C cams work with these!


Edited by tsk1979, 11 April 2021 - 12:40 AM.


#2167 xonefs

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 09:25 AM

a7r-IV 

 

Amazing! which other software you do use for imaging. or only asi air?

I am contemplating getting an APS-C sony for imaging but am worried about 2 things

 

1. Internal IR floodlight - Mmalik will guide me here I don't worry too much about that

2. N.I.N.A compatibility or stellarmate compatibility. A7S works, but don't know which APS-C cams work with these!

With the sony I do not have it hooked up to any software. I use asiair with my now 2600mm and guide scope and I have the sony/redcat piggybacked on that scope and run it off an intervalometer. 

 

bKoX7wal.jpg

 

I would just be careful with older sony cams. I picked up a cheap a7 hoping to use it as a second camera. Full spectrum conversion went well enough but I didn't realize how bad and real the star eater issue is since it is non existent on my a7rIV. It is pretty horrible on the a7 and creates weird artifacts so it's almost useless for this to me. So I would avoid the older generation I'm sure it exists on them too. I also thought about getting an older cheap sony aps-c cam for the smaller pixel scale without buying another rIV but I wouldn't get one of the older ones now like a6000/6300 etc. I'm not sure when/if they fixed it and I'm not willing to spend on the a6600 or even a6500.

 

I'm thinking about an a7iii or another a7rIV if I can find a decent deal. 


Edited by xonefs, 11 April 2021 - 09:26 AM.


#2168 sharkmelley

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 10:37 AM

I picked up a cheap a7 hoping to use it as a second camera. Full spectrum conversion went well enough but I didn't realize how bad and real the star eater issue is since it is non existent on my a7rIV.

There is a group of people who would disagree that the raw data filtering (a.k.a. "star eater") is a problem on the Sony A7, even though it plainly exists.

There is a (different) group of people who would disagree that raw data filtering is non-existent on the A7Riv, even though it plainly exists:

https://www.dpreview...s/post/63099143

 

Mark


Edited by sharkmelley, 11 April 2021 - 10:38 AM.

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#2169 Jeffmar

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 11:12 AM

It absolutely amazes me that this topic is still going strong. I amazes me almost as much that the “star eater” issue is still a big thing. I am an obsessive pixel peeper, but not even I want to count a few stars that may be missing out of hundreds or thousands that will appear on a photo. I haven’t changed to purpose built astronomy cameras because my Sony cameras are capable of getting really great photos. The bottle neck of great images isn’t with my cameras, it is me.

 

My 2 cents.


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#2170 xonefs

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 11:14 AM

There is a group of people who would disagree that the raw data filtering (a.k.a. "star eater") is a problem on the Sony A7, even though it plainly exists.

There is a (different) group of people who would disagree that raw data filtering is non-existent on the A7Riv, even though it plainly exists:

https://www.dpreview...s/post/63099143

 

Mark

Yeah I've seen that. I'm not going to proclaim the problem does not exist at all in the newer sony's, but I absolutely cannot see it in my use or examples of it so I'm not sure what circumstances it would actually show up in practice. It has been solved to the point where it is not an issue for me. It is pretty bad and obvious on the a7 though. 


Edited by xonefs, 11 April 2021 - 11:15 AM.

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#2171 smithkent

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Posted 14 April 2021 - 05:18 PM

Since I started using a modified A7s with success on a lightweight rig up to 400mm focal length you can keep subs less than 30 sec- which is very easy to do!  

 

When I'm finished processing my images in APP- I need to REMOVE stars in Photoshop with one of the Photoshop actions that are available!  Seriously- when you use the A7s in a nice dark sky environment the number of stars captured is vast and can overwhelm nebulae.



#2172 tsk1979

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Posted 14 April 2021 - 10:37 PM

With the sony I do not have it hooked up to any software. I use asiair with my now 2600mm and guide scope and I have the sony/redcat piggybacked on that scope and run it off an intervalometer. 

 

bKoX7wal.jpg

 

I would just be careful with older sony cams. I picked up a cheap a7 hoping to use it as a second camera. Full spectrum conversion went well enough but I didn't realize how bad and real the star eater issue is since it is non existent on my a7rIV. It is pretty horrible on the a7 and creates weird artifacts so it's almost useless for this to me. So I would avoid the older generation I'm sure it exists on them too. I also thought about getting an older cheap sony aps-c cam for the smaller pixel scale without buying another rIV but I wouldn't get one of the older ones now like a6000/6300 etc. I'm not sure when/if they fixed it and I'm not willing to spend on the a6600 or even a6500.

 

I'm thinking about an a7iii or another a7rIV if I can find a decent deal. 

My A7S works great with both stellarmate and NINA on windows

You may want to try out the stellarmate route as its a 120$ setup on R-Pi4 and gives you benefit of plate solving and dithering



#2173 tsk1979

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Posted 14 April 2021 - 10:38 PM

Since I started using a modified A7s with success on a lightweight rig up to 400mm focal length you can keep subs less than 30 sec- which is very easy to do!  

 

When I'm finished processing my images in APP- I need to REMOVE stars in Photoshop with one of the Photoshop actions that are available!  Seriously- when you use the A7s in a nice dark sky environment the number of stars captured is vast and can overwhelm nebulae.

Star eater comes into play mostly widefield milky way stuff if you pixel peep. On DSOs its not a problem at all



#2174 SandyHouTex

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 09:49 AM

Star eater comes into play mostly widefield milky way stuff if you pixel peep. On DSOs its not a problem at all

DSOs don’t have small one pixel stars, or you just don’tnotice it?


Edited by SandyHouTex, 15 April 2021 - 09:49 AM.


#2175 calypsob

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 11:25 AM

It absolutely amazes me that this topic is still going strong. I amazes me almost as much that the “star eater” issue is still a big thing. I am an obsessive pixel peeper, but not even I want to count a few stars that may be missing out of hundreds or thousands that will appear on a photo. I haven’t changed to purpose built astronomy cameras because my Sony cameras are capable of getting really great photos. The bottle neck of great images isn’t with my cameras, it is me.

 

My 2 cents.

Well this is exactly the problem the sony community has. People write off the issue because they can barely tell its an issue.

Everyone should be screaming that Sony modifies raw data at all, thats the problem. The data is being manipulated and it does not accurately represent what was captured in an image. Whether it is subtle or not is irrelavant.


Edited by calypsob, 15 April 2021 - 11:26 AM.

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